Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The Greeks and especially the Romans (and also the Assyrians, Nabateans, and Mayans) had concrete, but not for at least another 1000 years. The *currently* largest unreinforced concrete dome in the world is 1900 years old in the Eternal City (and I've been under it). The other thing is that the other ancient concrete is obviously concrete. No one mistakes it for rock.
First we don't have copper saws from the time. We have small carpentry saws that cut wood as far as I know. We have reliefs showing these small 40cm saws cutting wood. But we have absolutely nothing showing cutting of blocks.
Because it was lost. Thats whats called lost advanced knowledge.
Ok so theres one piece of advanced knowledge that is out of place. Way earlier than the orthodox narrative was saying. I think the same study found similar molded blocks on earlier pyramids. So this could go back even earlier. Now we can find other examples.
Which piece is out of place? Iron Age concrete? Oh, wait, no, "molded pyramid casings". Did you not read post #1160 ? The pyramid casing blocks track to a limestone quarry.
I was looking backward for something else you posted and this reminded me of my favorite fictional exploration of this theme:
In other words faith and miracles are conspiracy just like ancient and indigenous knowledge. Thats my point. You have already decided as a matter of your own belief and science fact that there is no such possibility for alternative knowledge advanced or not. Everything must conform to material naturalism.
Actually the miracles and healings done by the disciples was after Christ had gone. There have been miracles in the church all through the ages. But its not just miracles. Everything that Christians argue with non Christians about life is alternative knowledge to the world. This has transformed lives and the world.
OK lol. I meant 'material' as in physical and naturalistic sciences. That are based on naturalistic rather than the transcendental aspects like spirituality, phenomenal belief and experiences which also give us knowledge of the world and reality.
The area was actually quite wet due to the Nile delta and ideal for crops. They used the natural fertile basin. I guess thats why they chose such a place. But I am talking about the spirits and gods that agriculture was based on. What role this played as part of the natural and spiritual world they lived in. How they treated the plants and respected nature and worked with it.
Are you trying to rationalise away all ancient and indigenous knowledge as just imagination. An evolutionary by product of survival.
I think there were two aspects going on at the same time. The further you go back the more everything was gods and spirits. The Egyptians and other megalith cultures are the peaks. As populations grew they became less based on the spirits and gods. Obviously progression naturally takes over.
I thought it was common knowledge that just about everything was seen through the eyes of spirits and gods or some transcedent entity. Even later pharoahs actually made themselves gods. The precision vases were for the gods. They were placed in tombs to bring favor to the gods.
A couple of pharoahs were deified like Akhenaten. He bannished all other gods and made himself god. I think but I am not sure that he was the pharoah of the Exodus. But yes many were intermediates. Which still shows that even the rules were ruling by the gods. Everything was about spirits and gods.
I guess all sorts of ways lol. Some were giants so they would have needed a big chariot. I know the pharoah of the Exodus though he was a god and had a chariot when chasing the Hebrews.
I was covering a lot of cultures. Some say they were built by the gods and there are different ways they describe this. Some say they were built for the gods. In fact building for the gods was a common practice throughout ancient times. The precision vases were regarded as bring favor with the gods and buried with most important people. Thats why Djoser accumulated so many.
Your the one turning it into that. This actually comes from indigenous peoples themselves and they have been saying it for years as they lose their cultures. Have you not been listening to them lol.
We are talking about all beliefs within a certain realm of spirituality and belief. Yes they are different and yes they change.in one way or another. But they all have a common belief in that realm.
What is a civilisation. Its not necessarily like todays west, colonialism, western sciences and the material worldview. Like I said despite progress this was a different worldview and paradigm. One governed by the gods and spiritual domain.
This is silly. You have not demonstrated its not real. I pointed out that your belief (not science) assumes there is no such thing. So you would not know it if it was staring you in the face lol.
But your still here.
Ok I am looking. Heres a couple
That what where trying to find out. I've given most of the possibilities already including lath and machining marks, evidence of softened or weakened stone. Probably some sort of natural geometry as well.
Imagination and spirituality is what immerces the ancients and indigneous peoples in nature to get the knowledge in the first place.
Yes and that too. Let me ask. Do you think there is any difference between say Indigenous knowledge and enlightenment and material sciences. Any difference in paradigm that there are differences in worldview. In how people see the world and nature ect that may bring different kinds of knowledge .
No I am trying to seperate them out so you can understand that they are different. For example material science see the universe through the lens of empiricalism and scientific theories and testing and verification. A physical and mechanical lens of how the universe works.
Yes and notice how people say it gets you back to nature. What does that mean. There must be some effect it has which is different from the world they are escaping. You begin to see the world differently.
If you understood the spiritual aspect then you would not be rejecting the spiritual aspect. The point is all Christians know and acknowledge the spiritual aspect. They don't reject it as unreal or imagination. Its real.
Color me purple. The experience of colors.
Why not. If phenomenal experiences or whatever transcedent state that the ancients were in allowed them a deeper relationship with nature. Actually at one or immersed in it. Rather than material sciences that intellectualise nature from a 3rd party relation. They why not this bring deeper knowledge about how nature works which enabled them to understand how to cgange the elements or mess around with the chemical make of of nature.
lol I forgot there are certain trigger words. Like a word suddenly is what makes reality. Just mention the word and it all reality becomes the word. Like the word has magic powers.
Of course you would say that because you don't believe God can impart any knowledge to people, to Noah. That the whole enterprise was just in the imaginations of the Hebrews. It was all just man building stuff and nothing more. No God needed.
You seem to be confusing "no such thing" with "no evidence of such a thing and no necessity for it as an explanatory framework."
Remarkable. Have you ever used your faith in Christ to cut granite?
God is always needed. What you appear to need in addition to God is to have a talk with a real theologian. I would suggest that you talk to a scientist who is also Christian, but my experience with you over the years in this forum is that you ignore such people.
Have you found the gun yet
we know what sort of gun and even the bullets from the hole in the wall it went though and the marks it left. Just havn't found that gun yet. Oh well I guess we will just have to conclude there never was a gun.
So what unknown ancient technology do we have known samples to compare with? We can say that a hole in the wall, was caused by the bullet from a gun because we have actually shot at a wall with a gun.Have you found the gun yet
I see that a simple request to separate out the actual science content of your reply into a different post was too difficult. So, I will do it for you.
I am a bit confused why the actual study seems to be published in a news article form, but putting that aside. The conclusion make it clear that the answer is not clear. Some of the sampled rocks could be manufactured, but some are *definitely* quarried on site.
This one was quite hard to follow as I could only get part of the article. I could read the discussion, method, or even the conclusions properly.
You have a distinct skill to not understand what was written. I said nothing about "conspiracies". I am tossing out doubt to your original claim that Christians can violate natural laws and commit miracles. To which I replied "They can?" which is an expression of doubt in the face of evidence not presented. Most of what follow from me in that paragraph was a *story* about how I used to accept (without evidence) miracles in the bible, but not elsewhere because I trusted it as sacred scripture.
No. I want you to demonstrate it. You keep invoking the smoke screen of "alternative knowledge" and supernaturalism to explain the formation of stone objects. This is a long way from your ancient tech claims that started the thread.
Must be in a book I haven't read. I haven't read the whole Bible. It's quite tedious and hard to swallow.
I have no doubt that religion and religious experiences have changed peoples lives and society. That is not in question. I want to know if religious beliefs or powers changed rocks. This thread is about the material remains of ancient societies, particularly rocks. Things that don't alter rocks are not interesting or relevant.
These "transcendental aspects" do not alter rocks or create artifacts. They are not relevant.
Actually I am pointing out how methological naturalism (science method) becomes metaphysical or philosophical naturalism when someone uses science to refute alternative know. Defeat it as not being knowledge at all in relation to fundemental reality.
As I said I used this example as the extreme example. The fact is for Christians there is an aspect of reality that is supernatural and even if it has physical effects its still beyond the material worldview. This is about a metaphysical belief and not science.
I like Dr John Lennox
Because you were not keeping up. I jumped to the natural follow on that the same belief you have that those who speak of advanced ancient knowledge are promoting conspiracies. Because this does not meet the evidence criteria.
Yes this is really the spectulating part. Though we can form some hypothesis. But its more along the lines of anthropology or cultural studies. How religion or transcedent cultures gained knowledge.
Whereas as others are engrosssed in its great insights and revelations of life and who we are. Whats even better is we can go and find the places on the ground and do research and find even greater insights into our past and who we are. And reality itself I think.
Not just any changes. We want the unusual ones. The ones that defy the orthodoxy. Which is sort of tied metaphsyically to the material sciences. So ones that defy what the material sciences would have expected at that time. If its showing sophisticated chemistry or manipulation of sound or energy for such an ancient time then its out of place.
Not really. I think you will find the OP video is referring to a lot of different lines of evidence. Including culture and the beliefs of the ancients themselves as part of the evidence that aligns with the megaliths for example. Thus giving a testimony from those actually there and experiencing this.
I refer to the idea that say acoustic sound waves can alter the physical environment. A knowledge of stones and acoustic aspects of building. Perhaps for a real purpose that actually altered some state of the physical environment.
Egypt was in the same place it is today -- the delta and the flood plain of the Nile, surrounded by the desert. It was a thoroughly agricultural place then and now just as the central valley of California is today. This talk about some primative connected to nature talk you keep invoking does not resemble ancient Egyptian agricultural civilization of 6000 years ago. (The people who made the vases, and the one ones who 1000 years later made the pyramids.)
Have you ever been anywhere *NEAR* agriculture? Agriculture is about planting things and caring for them until they can be harvested. It doesn't matter how many times you pray for rain or to avoid locusts or hail, if you don't plant and don't harvest you get nothing. Framers know this and they have always known this. Demonstraing they sacrificed ibex to their gods for good crops (or any other religious activity) doesn't make agriculture based on spirits or gods.
You keep saying things like this and I wonder something....
Ancient knowledge, nah, but your claims of them -- you betcha.
There population was around 1 million at the time period we are discussing, but this "are the peaks" thing would be from the study of cultural anthropology of religion. Have you read that literature on the subject of who was the most spiritual civilization of all time? (I suspect they would actually dismiss the notion of measuring it, but tell me what it says.)
So it is just your speculation.
Because it is lost in the mists of time, if not mythology.
A thousand or more years later.
Are there gift tags: "To Ra"? Are there texts on the walls stating the purpose as gifts to their gods? My recollection of Egyptian grave goods is that they are placed in the tomb with the body so that the deceased can use them in the after life which is why they include foods, cosmetics, etc.
I don't know. What is the "indigenous knowledge" knowledge of? Is it knowledge of the healing properties of a plant or which grove of trees is best for communing with the spirits of the ancestors.
Knowledge is justified true belief. If it isn't epistemically justified it isn't actually knowledge.
The chariots of the gods...
Not interested in the stories of bible about Egypt. Not particularly reliable.
Can we stick to one -- Egypt?
Citation needed.
