Not a lot of respect for men

ChubbyCherub · 2025-11-10T20:35:08-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
You're welcome. But just know I'm neither attempting to upend what anyone else here in this thread may want to also share with you, nor am I presenting myself as 'The Bible Answer Man,' especially not as someone who is going to chauvinistically push answers upon an entire family. No, I consider myself a Christian philosopher and I aim to assist through clarification and explanation, if at all possible.

I see from your comments that you have several members in your family who all have their own individual concerns and viewpoints about the Christian faith or the bible, but for the moment, I'm only attempting to answer your personal concerns with 1 Timothy 2:11-15. I can offer sources, but before we get to that I'd like to know what your own pastor or church ministers said about this passage to you? I'm asking because it isn't my goal to contradict them, but rather to help fill in any questions you have which they might not have addressed.

Thank you very much.

They have not addressed Paul's comments re: Ephesus rather his at Corinth. They stated that Paul is not suggesting that women need to be quiet, submit or not have leadership or ministry roles in church but that it was contextual for the time and place Paul was instructing in Corinth.

Specifically, women in Corinth were leaders/owners of brothels and were used to positions of power within society and at home as they were the financial heads of the families. As a result, they were raucous at church which Paul felt was distracting and didn't allow for people to hear the message that was intended, hence, a set of societal rules laid out to assist a very specific situation.

They stated that Paul's words are misrepresented and misinterpreted because the verses are read out of context instead of read as a whole. I read the bible and didn't see where the information re: woman's job roles, financial status etc came from so was put into a position where I had to instruct the family to just 'trust' what was being taught at church. But, they are very educated and so this was not sufficient for them hence the quest for further information.

Regarding Pauls letter to Timothy re: Ephesus, I have not yet addressed this with my church given that we now see that Paul says the same about Ephesus and there is not an explanation regarding why the women, or exactly how the women, were behaving in whatever way initiated Pauls comments. I might possibly ask them but I have asked them so many things already and, much like this forum, I have to allow people to keep up with all the questions I fire off!

Many thanks!

ChubbyCherub · 2025-11-10T20:37:32-0600

Chris35 said:
I thought about it some more and you may have answered your own question?

They still listen to women who gossip and are led by uneducated women. A quote, "Happy wife, happy life," springs to mind.

Like you said, there is many examples in the bible, of the influence a woman has over a man and even if you are right, it just reinforces the point of Paul.

That if a woman does talk about things apart from God then she can easily deceive and mislead a man, at which point the loving thing for a woman to do is to put others first and refrain from it, as to not cause the man to stumble.

I'm not sure if it's weakness though; a man has much love for a woman, and often wants to make her happy at the expense of himself.

Well, it is unfortunate to me that a man is put in the position of leadership but still falls for the tactics of women regardless of the reasons or justifications they may give i.e. wants to make a woman happy at the expense of himself. How can he lead women in spiritual matters if his earthly happiness is forever tied to how his woman feels or the things she does knowing that they are not Christ focused? It seems silly and I just can't reconcile it! It would be like the blind leading the blind and it just doesn't make sense to me. There are times I wish I had an armchair for Jesus to sit in so He and I could have a 1:1 chat about all the mysteries of the bible!

Delvianna · 2025-11-10T20:45:00-0600

ChubbyCherub said:
Well, it is unfortunate to me that a man is put in the position of leadership but still falls for the tactics of women regardless of the reasons or justifications they may give i.e. wants to make a woman happy at the expense of himself. How can he lead women in spiritual matters if his earthly happiness is forever tied to how his woman feels or the things she does knowing that they are not Christ focused? It seems silly and I just can't reconcile it! It would be like the blind leading the blind and it just doesn't make sense to me. There are times I wish I had an armchair for Jesus to sit in so He and I could have a 1:1 chat about all the mysteries of the bible!

When I look into what the bible says about relationships, I view it as what is the perfect standard? I mean, we aren't ever going to be perfect, but understanding the standard would be key because it helps you pick out who is a terrible leader, vs someone you would want to follow.

The standard is Christ.

He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. - 1 John 2:6

So essentially, how Christ-like is that man? What are his fruits? Is he leading by serving just as Christ did? Is he leading by example? Is he guiding you to be in a stronger relationship with Christ? Is he correcting when necessary, uplifting when needed and putting others first above himself?

Now with all those questions in mind, re-read what I quoted from you from your last reply. Doesn't fit does it?

2PhiloVoid · 2025-11-10T21:16:32-0600

ChubbyCherub said:
Thank you very much.

They have not addressed Paul's comments re: Ephesus rather his at Corinth. They stated that Paul is not suggesting that women need to be quiet, submit or not have leadership or ministry roles in church but that it was contextual for the time and place Paul was instructing in Corinth.

Specifically, women in Corinth were leaders/owners of brothels and were used to positions of power within society and at home as they were the financial heads of the families. As a result, they were raucous at church which Paul felt was distracting and didn't allow for people to hear the message that was intended, hence, a set of societal rules laid out to assist a very specific situation.

They stated that Paul's words are misrepresented and misinterpreted because the verses are read out of context instead of read as a whole. I read the bible and didn't see where the information re: woman's job roles, financial status etc came from so was put into a position where I had to instruct the family to just 'trust' what was being taught at church. But, they are very educated and so this was not sufficient for them hence the quest for further information.

Regarding Pauls letter to Timothy re: Ephesus, I have not yet addressed this with my church given that we now see that Paul says the same about Ephesus and there is not an explanation regarding why the women, or exactly how the women, were behaving in whatever way initiated Pauls comments. I might possibly ask them but I have asked them so many things already and, much like this forum, I have to allow people to keep up with all the questions I fire off!

Many thanks!

Thanks for sharing that bit of information. Essentially, your pastors/ministers are correct, even if I might say there are additional nuances that could be added to what they've already said. So, they're giving you some substantive inter-textual, cultural information, all of which is relevant to how we should be reading and drawing inferences from the written text. We can't expect everything that is relevant to our understanding of a letter or book of the Bible to be contained, and only contained, within that very letter or book.

So, taking this one step at at time, I think the first order of protocol for reading any document in the Bible, such as the 1st letter to Timothy, is for us to ask essential questions pertaining to its setting. Answers to these questions may or may not be reflected or addressed in the writing itself, or they may or may not be referred to extensively even if reflected or addressed.

The first hermeneutical question we have to ask is: who is Paul writing to, and where is this person located? What is the general social/cultural background of that place in which this addressee is working and what sort of challenges might this pose?

2PhiloVoid · 2025-11-10T21:53:58-0600

ChubbyCherub said:
Thank you very much.

They have not addressed Paul's comments re: Ephesus rather his at Corinth. They stated that Paul is not suggesting that women need to be quiet, submit or not have leadership or ministry roles in church but that it was contextual for the time and place Paul was instructing in Corinth.

Specifically, women in Corinth were leaders/owners of brothels and were used to positions of power within society and at home as they were the financial heads of the families. As a result, they were raucous at church which Paul felt was distracting and didn't allow for people to hear the message that was intended, hence, a set of societal rules laid out to assist a very specific situation.

They stated that Paul's words are misrepresented and misinterpreted because the verses are read out of context instead of read as a whole. I read the bible and didn't see where the information re: woman's job roles, financial status etc came from so was put into a position where I had to instruct the family to just 'trust' what was being taught at church. But, they are very educated and so this was not sufficient for them hence the quest for further information.

Regarding Pauls letter to Timothy re: Ephesus, I have not yet addressed this with my church given that we now see that Paul says the same about Ephesus and there is not an explanation regarding why the women, or exactly how the women, were behaving in whatever way initiated Pauls comments. I might possibly ask them but I have asked them so many things already and, much like this forum, I have to allow people to keep up with all the questions I fire off!

Many thanks!

Keeping in mind the basic questions I prompted in my post above, apply these to the following video where New Testament scholar, Michael Bird, discusses the cultural meaning (and challenge ) of Artemis of the Ephesians in the city of Ephesus during the 1st century with Dr. Sandra Glahn. The content of the video encapsulates her book, Nobody's Mother: Artemis of the Ephesians in Antiquity and the New Testament (InterVarsity Press, 2023).

As you watch and listen to the discussion (and yes, I know, it's about 30 minutes---my apologies, but it'll be helpful for you) then think about how what they discuss may affect your evaluation of Paul's direction given to Timothy as he worked in his ministry and dealt with certain troublesome women in Ephesus.

Maria Billingsley · 2025-11-11T07:01:40-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Women in general don't have to shut-up. Keep in mind that there are multiple (and often ignored or unnoticed) historical and cultural context in which Timothy was enmeshed in the city of Ephesus, and Paul was directing Timothy how to deal with uppity Ephesian women who thought they should displace men in leadership, even within the Church.

This has nothing to do with "uppity" women and everything to do with the goddess Artemis. Women in ancient Ephesus had more prominent and influential roles compared to many other Greco-Roman cities, primarily due to the city's focus on the goddess Artemis. Women held high positions as priestesses in the powerful cult of Artemis, and some even held the influential civil office of prytanis. So in essence, Paul was pushing back on this cult rather than keeping women barefoot and pregnant.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-11-11T07:04:47-0600

Maria Billingsley said:
This has nothing to do with "uppity" women and everything to do with the videos Artemis. Women in ancient Ephesus had more prominent and influential roles compared to many other Greco-Roman cities, primarily due to the city's focus on the goddess Artemis. Women held high positions as priestesses in the powerful cult of Artemis, and some even held the influential civil office of prytanis. So in essence, Paul was pushing back on this cult rather than keeping women barefoot and pregnant.

EXACTLY!! .... you've nicely restated the overall point I'm gradually building here. Thanks for contributing!

Maria Billingsley · 2025-11-11T07:16:27-0600

ChubbyCherub said:
Paul said that widows, specifically under the age of 60 years old, were prone to gossip, idleness etc. They needed to be steered towards marriage and not pushed onto the churches as a needless burden. They needed to have children as a way to redeem their fall thanks to Eve causing Adam to sin.

1 Timothy 2:11-15

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Paul fails to note that Adam was not deceived but weak enough to go along with deception. How then can men be viewed as leaders or heads of household? Why should they teach when they can't learn? Men were responsible for the death of Jesus. Men were leaders, kings and rulers who brought their people to war and sin.

Men still believe that their vote matters. They still believe in medicine. They still listen to women who gossip and are led by uneducated women. A quote, "Happy wife, happy life," springs to mind.

Men seem to have lost their authority as 'head' straight out of the gate. Was Paul speaking from a place of wishful thinking?

I have serious doubts about men leading anything because they seem weak willed and weak minded.

Don't get me wrong. I wish this weren't the case. I read the bible and see that this shouldn't be the case. But what should be isn't reality so why are we supposed to pretend something is real that, time and time again, has been proved wrong or, at the very least, flawed?

If we are all sinners and we are all saved by grace, why do we women have to shut up and give birth to correct the error of Eve in addition to the sins of Adam?

Am I missing something here?

Many biblical scholars and commentators do argue that the restrictions Paul wrote in 1 Timothy were specific to the cultural and religious context of Ephesus, where Timothy was ministering.
Ephesus was dominated by the cult of Artemis (a powerful goddess), whose worship included female priestesses and a belief system that sometimes elevated the woman over the man (as she was born first in their myth).
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Not a lot of respect for men

ChubbyCherub

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ChubbyCherub

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Delvianna

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2PhiloVoid

It's going to be Shelob's bad day!

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2PhiloVoid

It's going to be Shelob's bad day!

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Maria Billingsley

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2PhiloVoid

It's going to be Shelob's bad day!

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Maria Billingsley

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