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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

stevevw

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I'm certainly not going to respond to all of that because it's a horrible mess of gish gallop and the spelling and punctuation errors honestly make my head hurt to read it. Use question marks (?) for questions, please.

You can claim that signatures you see are examples of advanced tech until your blue in the face, and that's entirely fine and dandy for you to do. But until you actually present substantial evidence of the tools that you claim were advanced enough than what we know were used in that ancient period of history, which goes back to even before Christ, then you cannot expect anyone to accept what you claim as evidence or truth or fact.

Bottom line: you cannot present the advanced technology as evidence in any shape or form, so all you have left is just claims and your claims come across as just pseudo-scientific crock.
So your answer is again that I must produce the actual tools and/or device to prove the case. Is that right. It will not matter about other evidence that may show signatures of machining or any signature that contradicts the traditional method.

All that evidence becomes invalid because I cannot find the tools and/or device that made them.

Yet you just literally said my gun example was valid in working out that a gun made the hole without finding the gun.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Yes so we can compare the signatures on the ancient works with other methods we have down through time. A saw cut has the forensics of a modern saw cut ect.

I only used forensic as an example in an attempt to explain in principle the idea of looking at marks and work out what caused them. Do you think there are methods we can use to work this out.
You'll need a way to compare the likelihood that they were made with method 1 and compare it with method 2. Without access to the methods, this seems like an insurmountable difficulty. If someone wants to try they need to get their proposal published and evaluated by experts through peer-review.
 
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BCP1928

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I am not just talking about the building of the Ark. But the purpose and its use and everything like that. So what about Noahs knowledge from God about the flood and all that. Was that not knowledge that material sciences could not give him.
It wouldn't give him the craft skills necessary to build an ark.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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So your answer is again that I must produce the actual tools and/or device to prove the case. Is that right. It will not matter about other evidence that may show signatures of machining or any signature that contradicts the traditional method.

All that evidence becomes invalid because I cannot find the tools and/or device that made them.

Yet you just literally said my gun example was valid in working out that a gun made the hole without finding the gun.

But only for when a gun is involved because we know what guns are.

Your claim of ancient advanced tech is do extraordinary and outlandish that it cannot be compared to forensics for ballistics except only in the most purile and infantile way. The only way you'd be able to get anyone to accept your claims of ancient advanced technology would be to actually show said technology itself. As I have said multiple times on this thread. Your claim is just too outlandish.
 
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Hans Blaster

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First and I am not saying this is how the vases were made. But the point of me using religion and especially Christianity is that potentially "Transcendent" or "spiritual" beliefs can be a force in the world that can defy scientific materialism or methological naturalism.
They can?
You do recall the miracles and coming back from the dead. Or the other God made events that changed history and reality.

Second It does not have to be that some spirit or supernatural force cut the stone. As I pointed out the spiritual or transcedent realm or the Indigenous realm of knowledge is immersed in a transcedent experience of nature itself. The common idea that natives and nature go hand in hand is because we say they understood nature very well. In ways we have lost and are rediscovering.

Its this conscious and experiential immersion in nature that reveals aspects of nature that could not be seen by the material sciences looking from the outside in.
Indigenous knowledge and nature emersion? What are you talking about? We are talking about one of the most advanced cultures on the planet at the time. They had farms and villages and governments.
So it may be they discovered some of natures secrets in utilising the natural forces around them to change nature itself. Such as their experience brought them knowledge of how stone changes in different situations with natural chemicals or energy manipulation.
"Nature's secrets"? This whole section reads like a condescending evaluation of "primative peoples".

If there are manipulations of the rock, where are the signatures? (What is "energy manipulation"?)
It was not just observation but an immersion. Become part of nature itself and this was the only way such knowledge could have been gained. As its 1st person, direct and not third part science.
As we know the ancient Egyptians famously lived off the natural bounty of the land in their forest tents.
In that sense it was their spiritual, conscious experiences, transcedental and phenomenal beliefs that brought them to a deeper level that brought this knowledge.
How?
Just as the early Hebrews gained knowledge and changed reality due to being immersed and governed by a spiritual reality and not a material one.
When did this happen? How does one "change reality"?
Just out of interest do you think Noahs Ark was advanced tech. It was directly designed by God lol.
I thought it was a big reed boat coated in bitumen for sealing. Not that advanced.
 
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stevevw

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What is so patently ridiculous about your post none of your images even comes remotely close to representing a machined surface.
This is what granite looks like when it is cut with a circular saw using a very fine diamond grit leaving barely discernible striations and a fairly smooth surface.

First I am not just talking about circular saws when referring to advanced methods. Machined saw cuts could be circular or straight. Its obvious that some are straight cuts. I showed you the long straight cuts along tops of stones which moved with the contours of the surface. Something impossible for a hand held saw.

1762768898238.png


Second whatever cut the ancient stone is going to be advanced for that time but not exactly like todays diamond tipped cutters.

Third it may not even be like a circular saw cutting the way todays cut. It seems some are routed or plane into an arc. Anyway your example still doesn't explain the arc cuts. Straight hand held giant saws cannot cut in arcs or around bends or with contours of the surface.
By comparison you submitted this as an example of a circular saw cut; instead it is a signature of abrasion done by hand using a rubbing stone and slurry as the striations are of variable depth and width due to different grit sizes in the slurry while the gap between the striations varies as the abrasive in the slurry is mobile.

First a reminder. You are doing exactly what I am doing in looking at the witness marks. So please don't attack me for linking images that don't fit your claims. But I agree this is a good first step to working out what caused the marks. By simple observations which is science. Well the first step anyway. Its also interesting how the marks can be seen differently by people.

Yes this is a good example of what many think is machining of some sort. The surface is over 4,000 years old and with wear it has lost some of its strirations. But even still many are continious, very uniform, paralell and most important, deep.

This doesn't look like the signature of random hand rubbing or grinding. Those strirations are long uniform and deep. Abrasion does not cause long, deep uniform strirations. The grit is random and quickly grinds into powder before it can take hold and cut deep long continious strirations. Some almost across the entire slab and only faint perhaps because of wear. Hand grinding and rubbing is random and all over the place.

But lets grant this is the result of hand and not machining.

The biggest bit of evidence that I think this was not a big hand held saw or random grinding and rubbing is the arc at the end of the cut. The surface is machined to a high level of flatness and the edges are sharp and thin. In fact the strirations seem to follow the same arc at the end of the cut which stops before the uncut surface.

1762757417397.png


1762756399689.png


1762757550781.png


It may also be that this was the result of cutting and not the finishing rubbibf or grinding. It may be that the arc cutter did several runs which overlapped strirations. But there is an arc in the strirations which match the arc at the edge where it stops go right up against it and follow the same arc.

A bit like the arc and strirations on the pink granite slab I linked earlier from Abu Sir. Did they hand grind or sand the arcs onto the granite.

1762757957752.png

Along with Khufu’s unfinished sarcophagus I can provide over two million more examples that blocks were not cut with circulars saws namely the limestone blocks used for the core of the Great Pyramid.

Yes thats a lot of blocks and hard to believe that all the blocks in all the pyramids were cut by copper saw as it takes so long. How do we know that the blocks were not weakened before cutting. That would make it faster. Like the scoop marks where the small dolerite pounders were inadequare over time and something extra was needed.
If you think these were done with circular saws then you need to explain their irregular shapes and extreme roughness.
Like I said there could have been more than one method. Your creating an either/or fallacy that all cuts must follow the same method. When there may have been several methods. Including the traditional slower methods or a combination of methods at once ie traditional copper saws with weakened or softened stone.
As limestone is soft the builders used sandstone pounders which have been found at Giza instead of dolomite pounders.
Could be. But like the research on the dolerite pounders there may be additional methods and tools that produced the results. I will have to look into the actual blocks of the pyramids. Its an interesting point. I know there are certain theories.
Since the limestone blocks were covered there was no need to dress and smooth them like the surrounding casing stones found at the base of the pyramid which were pounded into shape and smoothed by hand abrasion.
So your saying these blocks were not even cut by a hand saw but pounded into shape. Thats an interesting take. Most believe they were cut. They even replicate the method showing copper saws cutting blocks with sand crystals lol. So we have two completely different methods even for mainstream.

If you would have said these blocks were cut by copper saw and so raough like they had been ground out rather than cut out. Then I would have said if copper saws produce such rough signatures then why do other cuts produce such sharp, fine and straight cuts like a diamond cutter.

So who knows and thats part of the forensics or reverse engineering or investigation as to what could have caused the marks. As you said the rough blocks were covered for a long time. So even erosion needs to be taken into consideration.
There was some investigation of the outer limestone blocks covering the pyramids. It seems they were not cut stones but molded stones from some sort of geopolymer stone.

Paleomagnetic investigation of the great egyptian pyramid
https://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2012/06/epn2012436p28.pdf


A 2011 Nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum were obtained from Senefru's Bent Pyramid as well as the two limestone quarries in the area. The results show that the casing stones are the result of limestone grains from the Tura quarry Giza but cemented with an amorphis calcium silicate gel formed by human intervention.

Were the casing stones of Senefru's Bent Pyramid in Dahshour cast or carved?: Multinuclear NMR evidence

Interestingly the Famine Stele which is engraved in a rock near Elephantine North of Aswan mentions two famous Egyptians. Pharoah Zorza and Imhotep. It was engraved in about 200BC with various clues that cause Egyptologist to think it was much earlier. Dating back to perhaps around the 3rd dynasty.

The most controversial aspect of this Stele is that when it talks about building large stone structures theres no mention of any construction stones. Instead Pharoah Zorza was given a list of minerals and Ors. Many have studied the text and say its instructions for processing different minerals that could be the minerals involved in the fabrication of man made stone.
 
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stevevw

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You'll need a way to compare the likelihood that they were made with method 1 and compare it with method 2. Without access to the methods, this seems like an insurmountable difficulty. If someone wants to try they need to get their proposal published and evaluated by experts through peer-review.
OK so we can do it or not. We look at a mark on ancient works and we compare it to all known ways that could have caused in. In principle it should fall within all the actual ways humans have worked on stone from prehistory to modern times. We have plenty of method 1,2,3,4 ect.

In fact we have been doing exactly this when people do experiments using the different methods. We make the replica and compare the marks.

But some marks we just have to look at them and know they were not caused by said orthodox method. When a stone is cut around a bend or is very thin and follows the contour of the surface going up and down. Which a stright hand held saw cannot do.

So some of it at least is quite obvious and I cannot see how some cannot see this lol.
 
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stevevw

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They can?
If you can't the miracles in the bible. Or the many ways Christianity has changed individuals and the world. I am pretty sure Jesus calling Lazras out of his tomb or the disciples healing the sick and lame and raising people from the dead is knowledge beyond material science.
Indigenous knowledge and nature emersion? What are you talking about? We are talking about one of the most advanced cultures on the planet at the time. They had farms and villages and governments.
Yes and they came from the land and nature and were at their peak. The agriculture and communities were a natural evolution of people coming together as they evolved.

But everything about their world was of nature, spirits and the gods. The crops was aligned with seasons which were aligned with the sun which was a god. The architecture was aligned to the sun and stars. A rock was not just a rock but a spirit which was part of the spiritual worldview everyone had.

This was the peak of the gods and spirits. The early Egyptian kings were gods. All the ancients had gods that came and built the world and the megaliths. The megaliths and even tiny vases were made for the gods. Everything had the filter of gods and spirits and how this was in relationship to their experiences with nature.

Indigenous peoples today are a shell of their ancestors. But still they believe the same. They often speak of the white man and science being alien to their ways and that they destroyed their knowledge and disconnected them from their culture as the material scientific worldview dominated. .
"Nature's secrets"? This whole section reads like a condescending evaluation of "primative peoples".
Actually that you mock this idea of ancient and Indigenous knowledge as an alternative knowledge that is real and transcends scientific materialsm is condensending.
If there are manipulations of the rock, where are the signatures? (What is "energy manipulation"?)
The signatures come in changes structures and makeup. I linked a paper on how the Egyptians created stone by manipulating minerals and chemicals. Other studies are being done right with scans ect show possible manipulations of energy, sonic pulses in cutting ect. I linked them already.

There are other research on plant use in various ways such as medicines and as softening agents for stone. Acids and other reactions which melt, soften or weaken stone. Even making them lighter by messing around with electrons.
As we know the ancient Egyptians famously lived off the natural bounty of the land in their forest tents.
Living in nature is not just in the forrest lol. I could imagine the Giza plateau as thriving with all sorts of energy and inventions. The whole site is on a specific zone that is very active in several ways.

We have not begun to understand.
I just explaned how. Their spiritual and phenomenal beliefs. These are conscious experiences. Like any conscious experience it transcends the physical aspect you are in or engaging with.

This is where art and music and other insights into humans and life and reality come from. It can only come from this aspect. Even science. When scientist imagine something outside the box they are transcending the limits of physical science in their imagination. IMagination is a big part of science and life.

So now imagine before all the white noise of the modern world, well before englightenment and the Greeks. Going way back to where there were only humans and nature. Or where nature or natural ways were used to live. Blending in with nature. Flowing with nature in a spiritual sense.

It is at this peak of oneness with nature through the spirit world and gods that enable ancients to gain insights that we could now know today with enlightened sciences. I don't tyhink you can even get it. You don't understand Christian spirituality so why will you understand this.
When did this happen? How does one "change reality"?
Well for the Hebrews they escaped slavery, built the Ark of the Covenant and important symbol of Gods covenant which changed all human history. They made the 10 commandments we still use today and set the way for Christ who saved the world. Thats pretty good knowledge and change lol.

Thats what I mean. If you think the ancients never had any spiritual aspect that changed their reality. THen you have to also say that every Christian is wrong, there is no knowledge to gain and we are deluded. Just like many treat the ancients and Indigenous peoples knowledge. As make belief and superstition. According to the newage gods of knowledge material science and atheists.
I thought it was a big reed boat coated in bitumen for sealing. Not that advanced.
Well it seemed just right for the job at hand. Any less a build and it would fail. It managed to save humankind and if it was not for that specific knowledge the world would be a different place. In fact reality itself would be completly different.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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OK so we can do it or not. We look at a mark on ancient works and we compare it to all known ways that could have caused in. In principle it should fall within all the actual ways humans have worked on stone from prehistory to modern times. We have plenty of method 1,2,3,4 ect.
How do you propose to test the unknown ancient technology without knowing anything about what "witness marks" they would leave if they exist? Additionally, as in forensics you also need impeccable provenance.
In fact we have been doing exactly this when people do experiments using the different methods. We make the replica and compare the marks.

But some marks we just have to look at them and know they were not caused by said orthodox method. When a stone is cut around a bend or is very thin and follows the contour of the surface going up and down. Which a stright hand held saw cannot do.
No, a couple of guys sitting around having opinions are not enough ever.
So some of it at least is quite obvious and I cannot see how some cannot see this lol.
Have you considered if it is you who have a low threshold for being convinced?
 
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stevevw

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How do you propose to test the unknown ancient technology without knowing anything about what "witness marks" they would leave if they exist?
The same way we know its a bullet. From the existing bullet signatures we have gathered from many cases. The same with the marks on stone. We see some marks and we try a chisel, a pounder, a saw and we match the signature.

Have you not seen the Scientists against Myths. They virtually stop even 2nd minute to show the audience how much the marks look like the Egytians ones. They are real proud of themselves for being able to replicate the marks lol.
Additionally, as in forensics you also need impeccable provenance.
Ah the good old provenance again. How would provenance matter in determining whether it was a gun or not. Doesn't matter what gun or when it was made its still a gun.

Like wise if we find a circular saw or routing cut in stone one a works on site in ancient Egypt we have good prevenance. No ones going around making ancient monoliths in modern times.

Wait I think sjastro reckons one of the circular saw cuts I linked was a modern forgery. Someone came along with a circular saw in modern times and hacked intoan ancient block. But then theres many of these. I can't imagine someone being allowed to go around hacking up ancient sites lol.
No, a couple of guys sitting around having opinions are not enough ever.
So they are not smart enough to know that straight edged copper saws cannot cut around bends. Do we really need to have peer review for that. You don't have an opinion as to how even a traditional method could even achieve this.
Have you considered if it is you who have a low threshold for being convinced?
Hum I am adventurous and inquistive. I do have an active imagination. But I know the difference between a saw that cuts straight and one that can cut around corners. Did you ever think it may be the result of an under active imagination. One too stuck in its way or governed by assumptions that adhere to orthodoxy.

If anything I am open to all possibilities. It does not matter to me. I am more optomistic yes but at least I am not in the negative that I need to not allow something.
 
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sjastro

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First I am not just talking about circular saws when referring to advanced methods. Machined saw cuts could be circular or straight. Its obvious that some are straight cuts. I showed you the long straight cuts along tops of stones which moved with the contours of the surface. Something impossible for a hand held saw.

View attachment 372976

Second whatever cut the ancient stone is going to be advanced for that time but not exactly like todays diamond tipped cutters.

Third it may not even be like a circular saw cutting the way todays cut. It seems some are routed or plane into an arc. Anyway your example still doesn't explain the arc cuts. Straight hand held giant saws cannot cut in arcs or around bends or with contours of the surface.

First a reminder. You are doing exactly what I am doing in looking at the witness marks. So please don't attack me for linking images that don't fit your claims. But I agree this is a good first step to working out what caused the marks. By simple observations which is science. Well the first step anyway. Its also interesting how the marks can be seen differently by people.

Yes this is a good example of what many think is machining of some sort. The surface is over 4,000 years old and with wear it has lost some of its strirations. But even still many are continious, very uniform, paralell and most important, deep.

This doesn't look like the signature of random hand rubbing or grinding. Those strirations are long uniform and deep. Abrasion does not cause long, deep uniform strirations. The grit is random and quickly grinds into powder before it can take hold and cut deep long continious strirations. Some almost across the entire slab and only faint perhaps because of wear. Hand grinding and rubbing is random and all over the place.

But lets grant this is the result of hand and not machining.

The biggest bit of evidence that I think this was not a big hand held saw or random grinding and rubbing is the arc at the end of the cut. The surface is machined to a high level of flatness and the edges are sharp and thin. In fact the strirations seem to follow the same arc at the end of the cut which stops before the uncut surface.

View attachment 372963

View attachment 372962

View attachment 372964

It may also be that this was the result of cutting and not the finishing rubbibf or grinding. It may be that the arc cutter did several runs which overlapped strirations. But there is an arc in the strirations which match the arc at the edge where it stops go right up against it and follow the same arc.

A bit like the arc and strirations on the pink granite slab I linked earlier from Abu Sir. Did they hand grind or sand the arcs onto the granite.

View attachment 372965

Yes thats a lot of blocks and hard to believe that all the blocks in all the pyramids were cut by copper saw as it takes so long. How do we know that the blocks were not weakened before cutting. That would make it faster. Like the scoop marks where the small dolerite pounders were inadequare over time and something extra was needed.

Like I said there could have been more than one method. Your creating an either/or fallacy that all cuts must follow the same method. When there may have been several methods. Including the traditional slower methods or a combination of methods at once ie traditional copper saws with weakened or softened stone.

Could be. But like the research on the dolerite pounders there may be additional methods and tools that produced the results. I will have to look into the actual blocks of the pyramids. Its an interesting point. I know there are certain theories.

So your saying these blocks were not even cut by a hand saw but pounded into shape. Thats an interesting take. Most believe they were cut. They even replicate the method showing copper saws cutting blocks with sand crystals lol. So we have two completely different methods even for mainstream.

If you would have said these blocks were cut by copper saw and so raough like they had been ground out rather than cut out. Then I would have said if copper saws produce such rough signatures then why do other cuts produce such sharp, fine and straight cuts like a diamond cutter.

So who knows and thats part of the forensics or reverse engineering or investigation as to what could have caused the marks. As you said the rough blocks were covered for a long time. So even erosion needs to be taken into consideration.

There was some investigation of the outer limestone blocks covering the pyramids. It seems they were not cut stones but molded stones from some sort of geopolymer stone.

Paleomagnetic investigation of the great egyptian pyramid
https://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2012/06/epn2012436p28.pdf


A 2011 Nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum were obtained from Senefru's Bent Pyramid as well as the two limestone quarries in the area. The results show that the casing stones are the result of limestone grains from the Tura quarry Giza but cemented with an amorphis calcium silicate gel formed by human intervention.

Were the casing stones of Senefru's Bent Pyramid in Dahshour cast or carved?: Multinuclear NMR evidence

Interestingly the Famine Stele which is engraved in a rock near Elephantine North of Aswan mentions two famous Egyptians. Pharoah Zorza and Imhotep. It was engraved in about 200BC with various clues that cause Egyptologist to think it was much earlier. Dating back to perhaps around the 3rd dynasty.

The most controversial aspect of this Stele is that when it talks about building large stone structures theres no mention of any construction stones. Instead Pharoah Zorza was given a list of minerals and Ors. Many have studied the text and say its instructions for processing different minerals that could be the minerals involved in the fabrication of man made stone.
On the subject of limestone blocks used on the Great Pyramid I asked you this.
"If you think these were done with circular saws then you need to explain their irregular shapes and extreme roughness."

To which you responded.
Like I said there could have been more than one method. Your creating an either/or fallacy that all cuts must follow the same method. When there may have been several methods. Including the traditional slower methods or a combination of methods at once ie traditional copper saws with weakened or softened stone.

So the Egyptians were so incredibly stupid given they possessed the technology equivalent of powered tools producing machined surfaces on cut granite but would utilize slower methods such as copper saws on weakened(!?) or softened stone(!?).
Given over 2,000,000 blocks of limestone were produced how much extra time would have been added to the construction time of the Great Pyramid?

Frankly what is incredibly stupid are your attempts to explain why the Egyptians produced rough limestone blocks having to rely on a gypsum type mortar as a gap filler given they supposedly possessed the technology of powered tools producing subtle curved profiles on machined surfaces with harder rocks which would have greatly reduced the production time for the limestone core blocks.

Funny how these discrepancies disappear given the Egyptians exploited fracture planes of weakness in limestone (and granite) rocks using water soaked wooden wedges relying on expansion to break open the rock. The rock was then roughly shaped with pounders to form a limestone core block or further cut with a copper saw abrasive slurry combination and smoothed with abrasives to form a limestone casing.
 
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sjastro

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Wait I think sjastro reckons one of the circular saw cuts I linked was a modern forgery. Someone came along with a circular saw in modern times and hacked intoan ancient block. But then theres many of these. I can't imagine someone being allowed to go around hacking up ancient sites lol.
.
This is another example of your stupidity in operation as I explained illegal quarrying of these sites extended well into the 20th century.
 
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BCP1928

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The same way we know its a bullet. From the existing bullet signatures we have gathered from many cases. The same with the marks on stone. We see some marks and we try a chisel, a pounder, a saw and we match the signature.

Have you not seen the Scientists against Myths. They virtually stop even 2nd minute to show the audience how much the marks look like the Egytians ones. They are real proud of themselves for being able to replicate the marks lol.

Ah the good old provenance again. How would provenance matter in determining whether it was a gun or not. Doesn't matter what gun or when it was made its still a gun.

Like wise if we find a circular saw or routing cut in stone one a works on site in ancient Egypt we have good prevenance. No ones going around making ancient monoliths in modern times.

Wait I think sjastro reckons one of the circular saw cuts I linked was a modern forgery. Someone came along with a circular saw in modern times and hacked intoan ancient block. But then theres many of these. I can't imagine someone being allowed to go around hacking up ancient sites lol.

So they are not smart enough to know that straight edged copper saws cannot cut around bends. Do we really need to have peer review for that. You don't have an opinion as to how even a traditional method could even achieve this.

Hum I am adventurous and inquistive. I do have an active imagination. But I know the difference between a saw that cuts straight and one that can cut around corners. Did you ever think it may be the result of an under active imagination. One too stuck in its way or governed by assumptions that adhere to orthodoxy.

If anything I am open to all possibilities. It does not matter to me. I am more optomistic yes but at least I am not in the negative that I need to not allow something.
Have you ever used either kind of saw? Any kind of saw?
 
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Stopped_lurking

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The same way we know its a bullet. From the existing bullet signatures we have gathered from many cases. The same with the marks on stone. We see some marks and we try a chisel, a pounder, a saw and we match the signature.
So now you have proposed (loosely) a method to determine if the marks was most likely left by a chisel, a pounder or a saw. What is the equivalent to "From the existing bullet signatures we have gathered from many cases." when it comes to the unknown ancient technology? Your example is contingent on the presence of known bullet holes to compare to. In the case of the unknown ancient technology we don't have any known examples or marks to compare against.
Have you not seen the Scientists against Myths. They virtually stop even 2nd minute to show the audience how much the marks look like the Egytians ones. They are real proud of themselves for being able to replicate the marks lol.

Ah the good old provenance again. How would provenance matter in determining whether it was a gun or not. Doesn't matter what gun or when it was made its still a gun.
In forensics there are something called a chain of custody, so that the proposed forensic evidence can be connected with a crime scene. If any marks are found on a object with unknown provenance, we have no clue when they got there, we don't know when the object was made, so we don't know if it is remarkable to find the marks.
Like wise if we find a circular saw or routing cut in stone one a works on site in ancient Egypt we have good prevenance. No ones going around making ancient monoliths in modern times.
Why not? People are buying replicas of ancient monoliths in modern times, it is possible that someone have tried to make some from stone quarried in Egypt. Collectors are a strange group.
Wait I think sjastro reckons one of the circular saw cuts I linked was a modern forgery. Someone came along with a circular saw in modern times and hacked intoan ancient block. But then theres many of these. I can't imagine someone being allowed to go around hacking up ancient sites lol.

So they are not smart enough to know that straight edged copper saws cannot cut around bends. Do we really need to have peer review for that. You don't have an opinion as to how even a traditional method could even achieve this.
Yes, expert opinion is more convincing than your say-so.
Hum I am adventurous and inquistive. I do have an active imagination. But I know the difference between a saw that cuts straight and one that can cut around corners. Did you ever think it may be the result of an under active imagination. One too stuck in its way or governed by assumptions that adhere to orthodoxy.

If anything I am open to all possibilities. It does not matter to me. I am more optomistic yes but at least I am not in the negative that I need to not allow something.
So why can't they do it through publishing in peer-reviewed journals?
 
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stevevw

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On the subject of limestone blocks used on the Great Pyramid I asked you this.
"If you think these were done with circular saws then you need to explain their irregular shapes and extreme roughness."

To which you responded.

So the Egyptians were so incredibly stupid given they possessed the technology equivalent of powered tools producing machined surfaces on cut granite but would utilize slower methods such as copper saws on weakened(!?) or softened stone(!?).
Not too different to how we see both the precision vases and primitive knapped knives and tools in the same cultures and sites. Two different signatures showing different methods.

Maybe their were incredibly smark or knowledgable that they knew of several ways to work with hard stones. Thats seems to be what the signatures are saying. You put a ? over weakened stone. This is a possibility and would make an incredible difference and help explain a lot. That makes then very smart that they got around having to spend literally years and years all day long in the hot sun grinding and abraising away hard stone.

They say to be able to complete the Giza pyramid in 25 years it would take cutting and laying a block every 5 minutes 24/7 for 25 years. Thats not counting the inside, subterrainian tunnels and tombs and all the surrounding works like the foundations, pavers, plumbing, waterways, shafts, temples, cemetaries ect ect ect.

Why not find smart ways to deal with all that stone work. If they worked with it so much then surely they would have come to understand how to work with it in all sorts of ways.
Given over 2,000,000 blocks of limestone were produced how much extra time would have been added to the construction time of the Great Pyramid?
Well if they are cutting each and every block then its going to take massively longer than if the stone was weakened. Or they came up with a way to quicken the works. You know the saying work smarter not harder. They had the equivelant brain power.
Frankly what is incredibly stupid are your attempts to explain why the Egyptians produced rough limestone blocks having to rely on a gypsum type mortar as a gap filler given they supposedly possessed the technology of powered tools producing subtle curved profiles on machined surfaces with harder rocks which would have greatly reduced the production time for the limestone core blocks.
This is creating a false analogy. First the tests done show the out layer of limestones were human made and molded. Thats one thing. Not even cutters used full stop. So thats one method. This takes us straight into advanced tech itself. Or tech well outside the orthodoxy. Lets forst acknowledge this and not try and sweep this away.

Second I did not say the inner blocks were molded so your misrepresenting what I said. I said they may have been cut even by a saw if you like. I don't know. Like you said they did not have to worry about looks or quality because it was going to be covered.

It does not follow that somehow because the inner blocks are rough that all methods of cutting blocks had to be rough. They could have had other methods for the quality cutting. The point being the method that created the rough finish cannot create the smooth, sharp and flat finish.

So theres obviously more than one method involved. Your trying to create an either/or of methods. There could have been a rough cutting method for the hidden work, and high quality cutting for finished works. Or as the evidence shows a third option of actually molding the blocks so that they set perfectly into place.

Similar to the evidence found in Sacsayhuaman Fortress Peru. The evidence starts to mount up for alternative and advanced methods for that time.
Funny how these discrepancies disappear given the Egyptians exploited fracture planes of weakness in limestone (and granite) rocks using water soaked wooden wedges relying on expansion to break open the rock. The rock was then roughly shaped with pounders to form a limestone core block or further cut with a copper saw abrasive slurry combination and smoothed with abrasives to form a limestone casing.
Yes thats another way. See how many different ways we can find. But let me clarify. Are you saying all the inner blocks were split and not cut or pounded now. Which is it, pounded, split or cut lol.

As I keep saying there can be more than one method so we can't make it an either/or when it comes to methods. It may not necessarily be that every method was happening at the same time and over 5,000 years some methods will overlap.

I think in the Aswan quarry we can see several methods on the stones and archeologists acknowledge these all don't ccome from the same time or dynasty. In fact some are from the Romans as well.
 
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