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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

stevevw

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I'm certainly not going to respond to all of that because it's a horrible mess of gish gallop and the spelling and punctuation errors honestly make my head hurt to read it. Use question marks (?) for questions, please.

You can claim that signatures you see are examples of advanced tech until your blue in the face, and that's entirely fine and dandy for you to do. But until you actually present substantial evidence of the tools that you claim were advanced enough than what we know were used in that ancient period of history, which goes back to even before Christ, then you cannot expect anyone to accept what you claim as evidence or truth or fact.

Bottom line: you cannot present the advanced technology as evidence in any shape or form, so all you have left is just claims and your claims come across as just pseudo-scientific crock.
So your answer is again that I must produce the actual tools and/or device to prove the case. Is that right. It will not matter about other evidence that may show signatures of machining or any signature that contradicts the traditional method.

All that evidence becomes invalid because I cannot find the tools and/or device that made them.

Yet you just literally said my gun example was valid in working out that a gun made the hole without finding the gun.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Yes so we can compare the signatures on the ancient works with other methods we have down through time. A saw cut has the forensics of a modern saw cut ect.

I only used forensic as an example in an attempt to explain in principle the idea of looking at marks and work out what caused them. Do you think there are methods we can use to work this out.
You'll need a way to compare the likelihood that they were made with method 1 and compare it with method 2. Without access to the methods, this seems like an insurmountable difficulty. If someone wants to try they need to get their proposal published and evaluated by experts through peer-review.
 
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BCP1928

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I am not just talking about the building of the Ark. But the purpose and its use and everything like that. So what about Noahs knowledge from God about the flood and all that. Was that not knowledge that material sciences could not give him.
It wouldn't give him the craft skills necessary to build an ark.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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So your answer is again that I must produce the actual tools and/or device to prove the case. Is that right. It will not matter about other evidence that may show signatures of machining or any signature that contradicts the traditional method.

All that evidence becomes invalid because I cannot find the tools and/or device that made them.

Yet you just literally said my gun example was valid in working out that a gun made the hole without finding the gun.

But only for when a gun is involved because we know what guns are.

Your claim of ancient advanced tech is do extraordinary and outlandish that it cannot be compared to forensics for ballistics except only in the most purile and infantile way. The only way you'd be able to get anyone to accept your claims of ancient advanced technology would be to actually show said technology itself. As I have said multiple times on this thread. Your claim is just too outlandish.
 
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Hans Blaster

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First and I am not saying this is how the vases were made. But the point of me using religion and especially Christianity is that potentially "Transcendent" or "spiritual" beliefs can be a force in the world that can defy scientific materialism or methological naturalism.
They can?
You do recall the miracles and coming back from the dead. Or the other God made events that changed history and reality.

Second It does not have to be that some spirit or supernatural force cut the stone. As I pointed out the spiritual or transcedent realm or the Indigenous realm of knowledge is immersed in a transcedent experience of nature itself. The common idea that natives and nature go hand in hand is because we say they understood nature very well. In ways we have lost and are rediscovering.

Its this conscious and experiential immersion in nature that reveals aspects of nature that could not be seen by the material sciences looking from the outside in.
Indigenous knowledge and nature emersion? What are you talking about? We are talking about one of the most advanced cultures on the planet at the time. They had farms and villages and governments.
So it may be they discovered some of natures secrets in utilising the natural forces around them to change nature itself. Such as their experience brought them knowledge of how stone changes in different situations with natural chemicals or energy manipulation.
"Nature's secrets"? This whole section reads like a condescending evaluation of "primative peoples".

If there are manipulations of the rock, where are the signatures? (What is "energy manipulation"?)
It was not just observation but an immersion. Become part of nature itself and this was the only way such knowledge could have been gained. As its 1st person, direct and not third part science.
As we know the ancient Egyptians famously lived off the natural bounty of the land in their forest tents.
In that sense it was their spiritual, conscious experiences, transcedental and phenomenal beliefs that brought them to a deeper level that brought this knowledge.
How?
Just as the early Hebrews gained knowledge and changed reality due to being immersed and governed by a spiritual reality and not a material one.
When did this happen? How does one "change reality"?
Just out of interest do you think Noahs Ark was advanced tech. It was directly designed by God lol.
I thought it was a big reed boat coated in bitumen for sealing. Not that advanced.
 
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stevevw

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What is so patently ridiculous about your post none of your images even comes remotely close to representing a machined surface.
This is what granite looks like when it is cut with a circular saw using a very fine diamond grit leaving barely discernible striations and a fairly smooth surface.

First I am not just talking about circular saws when referring to advanced methods. Machined saw cuts could be circular or straight. Its obvious that some are straight cuts. I showed you the long straight cuts along tops of stones which moved with the contours of the surface. Something impossible for a hand held saw.

1762768898238.png


Second whatever cut the ancient stone is going to be advanced for that time but not exactly like todays diamond tipped cutters.

Third it may not even be like a circular saw cutting the way todays cut. It seems some are routed or plane into an arc. Anyway your example still doesn't explain the arc cuts. Straight hand held giant saws cannot cut in arcs or around bends or with contours of the surface.
By comparison you submitted this as an example of a circular saw cut; instead it is a signature of abrasion done by hand using a rubbing stone and slurry as the striations are of variable depth and width due to different grit sizes in the slurry while the gap between the striations varies as the abrasive in the slurry is mobile.

First a reminder. You are doing exactly what I am doing in looking at the witness marks. So please don't attack me for linking images that don't fit your claims. But I agree this is a good first step to working out what caused the marks. By simple observations which is science. Well the first step anyway. Its also interesting how the marks can be seen differently by people.

Yes this is a good example of what many think is machining of some sort. The surface is over 4,000 years old and with wear it has lost some of its strirations. But even still many are continious, very uniform, paralell and most important, deep.

This doesn't look like the signature of random hand rubbing or grinding. Those strirations are long uniform and deep. Abrasion does not cause long, deep uniform strirations. The grit is random and quickly grinds into powder before it can take hold and cut deep long continious strirations. Some almost across the entire slab and only faint perhaps because of wear. Hand grinding and rubbing is random and all over the place.

But lets grant this is the result of hand and not machining.

The biggest bit of evidence that I think this was not a big hand held saw or random grinding and rubbing is the arc at the end of the cut. The surface is machined to a high level of flatness and the edges are sharp and thin. In fact the strirations seem to follow the same arc at the end of the cut which stops before the uncut surface.

1762757417397.png


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It may also be that this was the result of cutting and not the finishing rubbibf or grinding. It may be that the arc cutter did several runs which overlapped strirations. But there is an arc in the strirations which match the arc at the edge where it stops go right up against it and follow the same arc.

A bit like the arc and strirations on the pink granite slab I linked earlier from Abu Sir. Did they hand grind or sand the arcs onto the granite.

1762757957752.png

Along with Khufu’s unfinished sarcophagus I can provide over two million more examples that blocks were not cut with circulars saws namely the limestone blocks used for the core of the Great Pyramid.

Yes thats a lot of blocks and hard to believe that all the blocks in all the pyramids were cut by copper saw as it takes so long. How do we know that the blocks were not weakened before cutting. That would make it faster. Like the scoop marks where the small dolerite pounders were inadequare over time and something extra was needed.
If you think these were done with circular saws then you need to explain their irregular shapes and extreme roughness.
Like I said there could have been more than one method. Your creating an either/or fallacy that all cuts must follow the same method. When there may have been several methods. Including the traditional slower methods or a combination of methods at once ie traditional copper saws with weakened or softened stone.
As limestone is soft the builders used sandstone pounders which have been found at Giza instead of dolomite pounders.
Could be. But like the research on the dolerite pounders there may be additional methods and tools that produced the results. I will have to look into the actual blocks of the pyramids. Its an interesting point. I know there are certain theories.
Since the limestone blocks were covered there was no need to dress and smooth them like the surrounding casing stones found at the base of the pyramid which were pounded into shape and smoothed by hand abrasion.
So your saying these blocks were not even cut by a hand saw but pounded into shape. Thats an interesting take. Most believe they were cut. They even replicate the method showing copper saws cutting blocks with sand crystals lol. So we have two completely different methods even for mainstream.

If you would have said these blocks were cut by copper saw and so raough like they had been ground out rather than cut out. Then I would have said if copper saws produce such rough signatures then why do other cuts produce such sharp, fine and straight cuts like a diamond cutter.

So who knows and thats part of the forensics or reverse engineering or investigation as to what could have caused the marks. As you said the rough blocks were covered for a long time. So even erosion needs to be taken into consideration.
There was some investigation of the outer limestone blocks covering the pyramids. It seems they were not cut stones but molded stones from some sort of geopolymer stone.

Paleomagnetic investigation of the great egyptian pyramid
https://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2012/06/epn2012436p28.pdf


A 2011 Nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum were obtained from Senefru's Bent Pyramid as well as the two limestone quarries in the area. The results show that the casing stones are the result of limestone grains from the Tura quarry Giza but cemented with an amorphis calcium silicate gel formed by human intervention.

Were the casing stones of Senefru's Bent Pyramid in Dahshour cast or carved?: Multinuclear NMR evidence

Interestingly the Famine Stele which is engraved in a rock near Elephantine North of Aswan mentions two famous Egyptians. Pharoah Zorza and Imhotep. It was engraved in about 200BC with various clues that cause Egyptologist to think it was much earlier. Dating back to perhaps around the 3rd dynasty.

The most controversial aspect of this Stele is that when it talks about building large stone structures theres no mention of any construction stones. Instead Pharoah Zorza was given a list of minerals and Ors. Many have studied the text and say its instructions for processing different minerals that could be the minerals involved in the fabrication of man made stone.
 
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