God's Divine Protection Of The Church During The Tribulation

RandyPNW said:

The prophecy in Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse of Jesus were focused upon the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, leading to his being "cut off." Both prophecies spoke of the fall of Jerusalem and the fall of the Temple following Israel's apostasy and rejection of Christ.

The Mark of the Beast was spoken of by John after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and refers to the prophecy in Dan 7, where the "Little Horn," aka the Antichrist, will reign for 3.5 years, unmolested on earth and raining terror down upon the saints, ie the Church. And so, we are talking about two separate prophecies, one focusing upon Israel and the other focusing upon the entire Church at the end of the age.

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So, when you claim that "The very thing described in Matthew and Mark as the AoD Luke identifies as the Roman Army of Jesus' time", it is actually your own interpretation and not what Luke identified.

There is nothing in Luke that linked the Olivet Discourse to the Roman Army.

Truth7t7 said:

The audience spoken to in Luke 21 is the future church who will lift their heads up and be eyewitnesses of the Lord's second coming, future events unfulfilled

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Don't you see your statement here as irrational and self-contradictory? You claim an on-going conversation between Jesus and his Disciples have nothing to do with his Disciples and instead apply to a future group of Christian who are not present or involved in the conversation. Jesus is, in fact, explaining what will happen to "these Jewish believers" who he is talking to! To say otherwise appears to be irrational to me. Sorry!

Truth7t7 said:

There isnt a 2,000 year gap of continous tribulation seen in the olivet discourse as you claim, Jesus didn't return in the second coming in 70AD, it's that simple your preterist claims fall

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You're making a terrible prejudgment and error here. You've claimed I'm a Preterist without evidence that I am one. And I'm *not* a Preterist!

So, you're guilty of slandering me, and should apologize for your failed judgment. There are those who think I'm at least partly a Preterist because of my belief that Jesus spoke, in his Olivet Discourse, of things that would happen in his own generation. But it is true that Jesus did in fact speak of things to happen in his own generation, even if he also spoke of things that would continue on for many generations of Jews.

The "Great Tribulation" Jesus spoke of was not a "gap." That is a ridiculous statement! Who ever said anything about a "gap?"

Jesus indicated in Luke 21 in the clearest possible way that Jerusalem and the Temple would fall in his own generation, which took place in 70 AD. And he said in the clearest possible way that this would be but the beginning of a long tribulation for the Jewish People, consisting of an age-long Diaspora.

It would only end, according to Jesus, at his Return. All this is explicitly stated in Luke 21, and your failure to simply read and accept the account as is amazes me. How can I argue with people who deny what their own eyes see?

The "Tribulation" is, by self-evident definition, the loss of Israel's homeland and a wandering of the Jewish People, both by believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. Though it would be due to unbelieving Jews that this judgment would come, but all Jews, including believers, would suffer as a result.

The unfortunate thing is that Jewish believers would suffer double. Not only would they lose their own homeland, due to no fault of their own, but they would also suffer from the wickedness of unbelieving Jews who bring on this judgment. They would also suffer outside of Israel where they would be homeless among the pagan Gentiles.

Jesus gave this Discourse to encourage believeres to endure, knowing that they are not the ones being judged, but are being given opportunity to witness to their own Salvation in a spiritual way. They wil be rewarded in due time.

Guojing said:

So, when you claim that "The very thing described in Matthew and Mark as the AoD Luke identifies as the Roman Army of Jesus' time", it is actually your own interpretation and not what Luke identified.

There is nothing in Luke that linked the Olivet Discourse to the Roman Army.

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Oh my goodness, brother--READ IT! Mind you, I've quoted it innumerable periods of times. I will do it again and underline the point....

Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”...
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."...
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

There are 3 perfectly clear things said here, though anybody can argue anything until they're blue in the face.
1) Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed.
2) Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed in his generation.
3) Jesus said Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, preceding its destruction.

We *know* that the Roman Army surrounded Jerusalem in Jesus' generation and proceeded to destroy it and the Temple. So yes, Luke is explicitly indicating that the armies of their own generation would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. That positively describes the Roman Army.

If you're just arguing that Luke doesn't use the word "Roman" I think you're being "difficult." Luke wouldn't want to write "Roman" in the presence of Roman overseers who would jail him for insubordination or even sedition.

2nd, it is obvious from Daniel that this was the 4th and last enemy of Israel in the series of 4 kingdoms, Dan 2 and 7. That would be Rome.

Finally, Daniel indicated that the people (army) of the ruler to come, ie Rome would destroy the "city and the sanctuary." Again, that has to be Rome, and Luke surely knew this! The same ruler who would preside over the cutting off of Messiah, fulfilling the promised redemption, would also preside over the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

Obviously, Rome had Jesus put to death. And it would be Rome who destroys Jerusalem and the Temple in his generation.

Luke 19.43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Who was Israel's "enemies?" Obviously, it was Rome.

RandyPNW said:

Oh my goodness, brother--READ IT! Mind you, I've quoted it innumerable periods of times. I will do it again and underline the point....

Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”...
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."...
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

There are 3 perfectly clear things said here, though anybody can argue anything until they're blue in the face.
1) Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed.
2) Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed in his generation.
3) Jesus said Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, preceding its destruction.

We *know* that the Roman Army surrounded Jerusalem in Jesus' generation and proceeded to destroy it and the Temple. So yes, Luke is explicitly indicating that the armies of their own generation would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. That positively describes the Roman Army.

If you're just arguing that Luke doesn't use the word "Roman" I think you're being "difficult." Luke wouldn't want to write "Roman" in the presence of Roman overseers who would jail him for insubordination or even sedition.

Who was Israel's "enemies?" Obviously, it was Rome.

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I see, so you interpret 'armies" as the Roman army.

It is only obvious to you.

Truth7t7 said:

You post Revelation 3:10 as you claim that the church won't be on earth because of the hour of earths temptation, trying desperately to validate a pre-trib rapture?

You disregard Revelation 3:11 in context "Why"?

Verse 11 states clearly "Behold I Come Quickly" in the 2nd coming

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God's wrath will be poured out during the great tribulation.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Revelation 3:11 is referring to the resurrection (of those who sleep in Christ)/ the rapture (of those awake in Christ).