• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

christianlloydteegardin

Active Member
Oct 20, 2025
37
57
28
Midville, GA
✟3,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I used to brush off the Biblical prescription of a woman covering her head as a thing of the past or at the very least, something to be seen in a culturally relativistic manner. Almost no church I've attended pays any mind to what 1 Corinthians 11 prescribes to women especially. At first I didn't pay much mind as being a prodigal son to the faith, I was going through Romans at that time. When I encountered the specific passages in Scripture I'm referencing, I ran into a predicament. Was I to ignore the obvious guidelines about worship in favor of being acceptable to the masses? Certainly not. The Bible takes precedence over any practice of man.

My personal conviction, after letting it stew in my head for multiple days, is that women should veil themselves in the house of God, alongside men not having long hair for any reason whatsoever. I love attending the churches I do currently, but I don't want to have to confront both pastors regarding the lack of following 1 Corinthians 11. I feel like the time-honored practice has lost its place in almost all of America and the world and we at the very least should consider it and pray to God about it. We need a revival of God-honoring tradition and modesty.

Questions:

1. Should I meet up with the pastors of both churches and discuss this passage in scripture and seek out their understanding? In essence, I want friendly debate.
2. Should I continue to attend those two churches or should I consider looking for an Anabaptist/Plymouth Brethren congregation? I want to follow Scripture to the tiniest detail.
 

Delvianna

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2025
465
356
39
Florida
✟11,734.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I want to start off by saying this is a highly debated topic (what isn't though, honestly..) but keep that in mind because even scholars can't agree. So ultimately this is going to boil down to praying to God and letting him guide you, but with that said...

I want to mention some things that maybe you didn't notice and then I'll answer your questions.

1. The word "head" (κεϕαλη)

The foundation of the argument is laid in verse 3: "But I want you to understand that the κεϕαληˊ (head) of every man is Christ, the κεϕαληˊ of a wife is her husband, and the κεϕαληˊ of Christ is God."
  • The Debate: The Greek word κεϕαληˊ (kephaleˉ) literally means "head." Scholars debate whether Paul intends the metaphorical meaning of "source" or "authority over."
The majority view by scholars is that κεϕαληˊ means "authority" or "headship" instead of him meaning the literal head and the reason for this is because Pauls use and argument of the creation narrative (man was created first and woman from man, v. 8-9). So the entire argument then becomes the idea that certain practices should symbolize a proper recognition of God's established order (creation). Essentially, if a culture creates a practice, is should be based on the established order that God set and to make sure it doesn't go against it.

2. Covering (or Uncovering)

Paul applies this hierarchy to the public acts of praying and prophesying in church:
  • For Men: A man should not cover his head because he is the "image and glory of God" (v. 7). To cover his head (Gk: κατα κεϕαλη~ς εχων, kata kephaleˉs echoˉn) would dishonor Christ, his head (authority). This probably served to distance Christian men from pagan practices in Corinth, where some priests covered their heads during worship.
  • For Wives: A wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered (Gk: α˙κατακαλυπτω, akatakalyptoˉ) dishonors her head (her husband).
    • Paul equates an uncovered head with having a shaved head (v. 5-6), which was the sign of a non-respected woman or an adulteress in that culture.
    • The "covering" was a symbol of authority (εξουσιˊα, exousia) (v. 10), which the wife ought to have on her head. The most common understanding is that the cloth covering symbolized that she was under the authority of her husband, thus preserving her honor and his.

3. Now Hair and Culture combined

Paul introduces a dual aspect to the "covering," Combining a literal and metaphorical:
  • Literal via Culture: The immediate context strongly implies a literal cloth covering or veil because to discard it carried the same cultural shame as having one's head shaved. In first-century Roman society, the veil was a mark of a respectable, married, and a virgin woman.
  • Natural: Paul asks, "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering (Gk: περιβολαιˊον, peribolaion)" (v. 14-15).
    • The use of περιβολαιˊον for the hair's covering is a different word than the one for the veil, suggesting that the principle of gender distinction, regardless of the cultural practice.

So essentially as I stated in point one, it's the idea of doing a practice that honors the created order of authority and local cultural ideas to avoid issues within the church. We don't have that kind of cultural ideas anymore so the idea of wearing a literal covering isn't necessary and in my view, was only for Corinth at the time because of the culture. Paul was trying to establish a principle, and while that principle can be applied no matter the culture (keep any practice that honors the order of authority), we don't have to apply it word for word literally today.

So, with all that said, your questions:
1) If you feel strongly enough that you want to sit down with your pastors for a friendly debate, then go for it. Your concern should concern them too.
2) If you feel the church is not a good fit for you based off of your beliefs, then find another but I would definitely still sit down with them and have a talk.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

christianlloydteegardin

Active Member
Oct 20, 2025
37
57
28
Midville, GA
✟3,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I want to start off by saying this is a highly debated topic (what isn't though, honestly..) but keep that in mind because even scholars can't agree. So ultimately this is going to boil down to praying to God and letting him guide you, but with that said...

I want to mention some things that maybe you didn't notice and then I'll answer your questions.

1. The word "head" (κεϕαλη)

The foundation of the argument is laid in verse 3: "But I want you to understand that the κεϕαληˊ (head) of every man is Christ, the κεϕαληˊ of a wife is her husband, and the κεϕαληˊ of Christ is God."
  • The Debate: The Greek word κεϕαληˊ (kephaleˉ) literally means "head." Scholars debate whether Paul intends the metaphorical meaning of "source" or "authority over."
The majority view by scholars is that κεϕαληˊ means "authority" or "headship" instead of him meaning the literal head and the reason for this is because Pauls use and argument of the creation narrative (man was created first and woman from man, v. 8-9). So the entire argument then becomes the idea that certain practices should symbolize a proper recognition of God's established order (creation). Essentially, if a culture creates a practice, is should be based on the established order that God set and to make sure it doesn't go against it.

2. Covering (or Uncovering)

Paul applies this hierarchy to the public acts of praying and prophesying in church:
  • For Men: A man should not cover his head because he is the "image and glory of God" (v. 7). To cover his head (Gk: κατα κεϕαλη~ς εχων, kata kephaleˉs echoˉn) would dishonor Christ, his head (authority). This probably served to distance Christian men from pagan practices in Corinth, where some priests covered their heads during worship.
  • For Wives: A wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered (Gk: α˙κατακαλυπτω, akatakalyptoˉ) dishonors her head (her husband).
    • Paul equates an uncovered head with having a shaved head (v. 5-6), which was the sign of a non-respected woman or an adulteress in that culture.
    • The "covering" was a symbol of authority (εξουσιˊα, exousia) (v. 10), which the wife ought to have on her head. The most common understanding is that the cloth covering symbolized that she was under the authority of her husband, thus preserving her honor and his.

3. Now Hair and Culture combined

Paul introduces a dual aspect to the "covering," Combining a literal and metaphorical:
  • Literal via Culture: The immediate context strongly implies a literal cloth covering or veil because to discard it carried the same cultural shame as having one's head shaved. In first-century Roman society, the veil was a mark of a respectable, married, and a virgin woman.
  • Natural: Paul asks, "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering (Gk: περιβολαιˊον, peribolaion)"(v. 14-15).
    • The use of περιβολαιˊον for the hair's covering is a different word than the one for the veil, suggesting that the principle of gender distinction, regardless of the cultural practice.

So essentially as I stated in point one, it's the idea of doing a practice that honors the created order of authority and local cultural ideas to avoid issues within the church. We don't have that kind of cultural ideas anymore so the idea of wearing a literal covering isn't necessary and in my view, was only for Corinth at the time because of the culture. Paul was trying to establish a principle, and while that principle can be applied no matter the culture (keep any practice that honors the order of authority), we don't have to apply it word for word literally today.

So, with all that said, your questions:
1) If you feel strongly enough that you want to sit down with your pastors for a friendly debate, then go for it. Your concern should concern them too.
2) If you feel the church is not a good fit for you based off of your beliefs, then find another but I would definitely still sit down with them and have a talk.
From doing a little bit of research, the downturn in head-covering for women coincided largely with the 1960's Sexual Revolution which was a watershed moment for secular feminism especially in the United States, so I think a lot of churches went in that feminist direction.
 
Upvote 0

Delvianna

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2025
465
356
39
Florida
✟11,734.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
From doing a little bit of research, the downturn in head-covering for women coincided largely with the 1960's Sexual Revolution which was a watershed moment for secular feminism especially in the United States, so I think a lot of churches went in that feminist direction.
Probably, but it was a cultural thing, not a mandate and I think that is the distinction. It would be equivalent to wearing a miniskirt back in the 1800's. The societal uproar that would cause....
 
  • Like
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

christianlloydteegardin

Active Member
Oct 20, 2025
37
57
28
Midville, GA
✟3,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Probably, but it was a cultural thing, not a mandate and I think that is the distinction. It would be equivalent to wearing a miniskirt back in the 1800's. The societal uproar that would cause....
I think, at least, wearing a little cowl on top of one's head would be enough to satisfy the spiritual submission principle in 1 Cor 11. It's less of an explicitly modesty-oriented principle and more of a spiritual one, a reflection of one's role in the divine headship of Christ. Men wear no hats/long hair due to their covering being Christ, and women wear head coverings as part of their role in submission to men. That's what I get anyways.

edit: the 15th verse seems to equate a woman's long hair for a covering, so I believe a woman should at least have long hair.
 
Upvote 0

Delvianna

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2025
465
356
39
Florida
✟11,734.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think, at least, wearing a little cowl on top of one's head would be enough to satisfy the spiritual submission principle in 1 Cor 11. It's less of an explicitly modesty-oriented principle and more of a spiritual one, a reflection of one's role in the divine headship of Christ. Men wear no hats/long hair due to their covering being Christ, and women wear head coverings as part of their role in submission to men. That's what I get anyways.
Like I said, I don't agree with your summation and that its a spiritual principle at all. But if you do, then sit down with your church leaders.
 
Upvote 0

christianlloydteegardin

Active Member
Oct 20, 2025
37
57
28
Midville, GA
✟3,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Like I said, I don't agree with your summation and that its a spiritual principle at all. But if you do, then sit down with your church leaders.
Check my edit. Verse 15 seems to provide an exception.
 
Upvote 0

Delvianna

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2025
465
356
39
Florida
✟11,734.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Check my edit. Verse 15 seems to provide an exception.
I'm going to quote you what I said about verse 15:

The use of περιβολαιˊον for the hair's covering is a different word than the one for the veil, suggesting that the principle of gender distinction, regardless of the cultural practice.

It's not a veil, it's just showing gender distinction vs a woman having shorter hair but again culture applies to this as men were supposed to grow out their hair if you took a Nazirite vow. So essentially if you take this principle literally, that Paul taking a Nazirite vow would be seen as wrong because he grew out his hair which would have been the same and not distinct vs a woman.
 
Upvote 0

christianlloydteegardin

Active Member
Oct 20, 2025
37
57
28
Midville, GA
✟3,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm going to quote you what I said about verse 15:

The use of περιβολαιˊον for the hair's covering is a different word than the one for the veil, suggesting that the principle of gender distinction, regardless of the cultural practice.

It's not a veil, it's just showing gender distinction vs a woman having shorter hair but again culture applies to this as men were supposed to grow out their hair if you took a Nazirite vow. So essentially if you take this principle literally, that Paul taking a Nazirite vow would be seen as wrong because he grew out his hair which would have been the same and not distinct vs a woman.
Fascinating. I'll pose the idea to my pastors and see what they think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Delvianna
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,334
958
The South
✟104,784.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We need a revival of God-honoring tradition and modesty.
Amen.
1. Should I meet up with the pastors of both churches and discuss this passage in scripture and seek out their understanding? In essence, I want friendly debate.
I don't see why that would be a problem, but both sides of the debate are pretty well hashed out in material you can find online. Just don't expect them to change their minds.
2. Should I continue to attend those two churches or should I consider looking for an Anabaptist/Plymouth Brethren congregation? I want to follow Scripture to the tiniest detail.
I found a church that still honors head covering in Orthodoxy. That's pretty far off from Plymouth Brethren, but you should know that there are other options outside of them.

For me, it's pretty clear that effectively all Christians up until 1960 or so weren't mistaken about what St. Paul meant, and that arguments about the passage being figurative or even based on an erroneous belief about hair being a reproductive organ are just modern post hoc rationalizations for a result of the feminist movement and a general loss of modesty in modern culture.
 
Upvote 0

christianlloydteegardin

Active Member
Oct 20, 2025
37
57
28
Midville, GA
✟3,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Amen.
I don't see why that would be a problem, but both sides of the debate are pretty well hashed out in material you can find online. Just don't expect them to change their minds.
I found a church that still honors head covering in Orthodoxy. That's pretty far off from Plymouth Brethren, but you should know that there are other options outside of them.

For me, it's pretty clear that effectively all Christians up until 1960 or so weren't mistaken about what St. Paul meant, and that arguments about the passage being figurative or even based on an erroneous belief about hair being a reproductive organ are just modern post hoc rationalizations for a result of the feminist movement and a general loss of modesty in modern culture.
Took the words out of my mouth.
 
Upvote 0