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The goal of Christianity in 'Not' to stop sinning!

A Devil's Advocate

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The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

It amazes me the amount of wasted time and energy people put towards this goal of sinning less and ultimately, not sinning at all. Does anyone read the bible for what it actually says, or does everyone read it for what they've been told it says?

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.
Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?

The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good. The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

Before salvation we are spiritually dead, separated from God. Without spiritual life, there is no desire to do the will of God. Without spiritual life, the desires of the flesh are what rules us. We have no desire, what so ever, to do the will of God. After receiving new life (spiritual life), that is when we are suddenly presented with a dilemma. To now do the will of God.
This new dilemma is the very struggle Paul talks about. And the reason Paul talks about it is to make it clear to his readers that the very idea that we can stop sinning is ridiculous. He states very clearly that sin resides in the flesh. Unless you live in the fantasy world I mentioned earlier, until the day you die, you will remain in the flesh. The flesh is corrupt as a result of sin. And until our corrupted flesh is destroyed, and we are given new non corrupted bodies, this struggle will remain.

The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

It amazes me the amount of wasted time and energy people put towards this goal of sinning less and ultimately, not sinning at all. Does anyone read the bible for what it actually says, or does everyone read it for what they've been told it says?

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.
It is difficult to accurately characterize the mindset you are describing here. You use the word, "identify as". I don't disagree with those words except that in today's usage it is often associated with falsely asserting and identity. But you are right to say we should adopt a mindset about ourselves that is consistent with who we have become in Christ. Romans 8:9 is meant to make our new identity in Christ clear:

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Ro 8:9)​
And Romans 8:10 is intended to make it clear that the righteousness we have in Christ is detached from the corruption of the flesh:

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Ro 8:10 NASB)​

And that we should "identify as" who we are in Christ and live out our lives that way is spelled out explicitly in Romans 6:
  • "reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Ro 6:11),
  • "we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro 6:4), and
  • "present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead" (Ro 6:13).
It is no coincidence that Romans 6, 7, and 8 all tell is how to overcome this identity crisis.
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.

Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?
Good point. The flesh cannot be reformed, and it does not become less sinful over time. In fact, it "grows corrupt" (Eph 4:22).
The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good.
Yes! How can the "true righteousness and holiness" of the new man (Eph 4:24) be improved upon?
The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

Before salvation we are spiritually dead, separated from God. Without spiritual life, there is no desire to do the will of God. Without spiritual life, the desires of the flesh are what rules us. We have no desire, what so ever, to do the will of God. After receiving new life (spiritual life), that is when we are suddenly presented with a dilemma. To now do the will of God.
This new dilemma is the very struggle Paul talks about. And the reason Paul talks about it is to make it clear to his readers that the very idea that we can stop sinning is ridiculous. He states very clearly that sin resides in the flesh. Unless you live in the fantasy world I mentioned earlier, until the day you die, you will remain in the flesh. The flesh is corrupt as a result of sin. And until our corrupted flesh is destroyed, and we are given new non corrupted bodies, this struggle will remain.

The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.
Yes, you are right again. It is said clearly in Galatians 5:16-17 that the flesh leads us in one direction and the Spirit of God who lives in us leads us in a different direction and that to avoid fulfilling the desires of the flesh all we have to do is carry out the desires of the Spirit.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Ga 5:16–17)​
 
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Abraham1st

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Yes, you are right again. It is said clearly in Galatians 5:16-17 that the flesh leads us in one direction and the Spirit of God who lives in us leads us in a different direction and that to avoid fulfilling the desires of the flesh all we have to do is carry out the desires of the Spirit.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Ga 5:16–17)​
Advocate said: The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.




No you are both incorrect, your agreement does not make you both right. ( two wrongs does not make a right does it)



There is no goal to ultimate stop sinning, it is to be dead to sin, it is even clear on a corrupted forum. ( as for Romans 7, it also is of course talking to the ones yet in the flesh.)


As for Galatians 5, this is not unclear, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR, they are seeking law, and do not hear the word of faith, WE THROUGH THE SIRIT WAIT FOR THE HOPE OF RIGHTEOUSNES BY FAITH.

Who is hindering them from not OBEYING THE TRUTH.

They are called unto liberty, but they use it as occasion to the flesh, BITING AND DEVOURING ONE ANOTHER, CONSUMED OF NE ANOTHER, instead of LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. ( they do not hear the word of faith, to WALK IN THE SPIRIT, as we see they were caught up in the LUST OF THE FLESH.)



Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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No you are both incorrect, your agreement does not make you both right. ( two wrongs does not make a right does it)

There is no goal to ultimate stop sinning, it is to be dead to sin, it is even clear on a corrupted forum. ( as for Romans 7, it also is of course talking to the ones yet in the flesh.)
I don't see where I promoted stopping sinning as a goal. All I did in the section you cut from my remarks was to state that not gratifying the flesh is only possible if we walk in the Spirit. Am I missing something?
 
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Abraham1st

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I don't see where I promoted stopping sinning as a goal. All I did in the section you cut from my remarks was to state that not gratifying the flesh is only possible if we walk in the Spirit. Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing something, the description is for people who are not doing the truth, so if anyone is of the truth they do it, not talk about them...

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



Your name seems to suggest you like to show the name of CHRIST.


NewLifeInChristJesus



Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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No you are both incorrect, your agreement does not make you both right. ( two wrongs does not make a right does it)



There is no goal to ultimate stop sinning, it is to be dead to sin, it is even clear on a corrupted forum. ( as for Romans 7, it also is of course talking to the ones yet in the flesh.)
I have to wonder if you actually read what it is you're responding to, or do you just glance over it and assume what it said?

I did not state that the goal is to stop sinning. In my understanding of the Gospel, sin is no longer even in the picture. It was dealt with by Christ. The matter is closed. That is my whole point with my post.

Yet Christianity as a whole, is still constantly focused on dealing with sin. That's what I was saying with my above statement. To be dead to sin, as you say, used in it's context means to be born again. To be saved, a believer who now has an incorruptible spirit. Someone who is now driven by the spirit and not by the flesh.

However, we live in the real world where this struggle to do the will of God or to satisfy the flesh is an ongoing reality.

As for Romans 7, Paul is speaking of himself as a believer. Before he was a believer, there was no struggle within him to do good, to do the will of God (love thy neighbour). This is very evident by the fact that before Paul was a believer, he had no issue persecuting and killing Christians. Those in the flesh could care less about the law of God, whether it is good or if it even exists.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Yes, you are missing something, the description is for people who are not doing the truth, so if anyone is of the truth they do it, not talk about them...
No, that's not right. It doesn't say that nobody who walks in the Spirit ever indulges the lusts of the flesh.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Your name seems to suggest you like to show the name of CHRIST.

NewLifeInChristJesus


Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I do not promote myself as Christ Jesus but rather points to Him as the giver and sustainer of life. From another thread:
Do you mean in your brain, that the doctrine of godliness cannot be allowed.
It is obvious that these remarks do not come from walking in the Spirit since they are the results of indulging of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like (Ga 5:19–21)​
 
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