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A challenge to a faith we've all come to know

A Devil's Advocate

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God did not reprimand the serpent until the woman had told to God what she had done, and she acknowledges that the serpent beguiled her.
Genesis 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. ( NO SUCH THING AS SPIRITUL DEATH, that would be another Jesus, another gospel.)
So by what was committed, sin entered into the world, that is Adams transgression, an act of disobedience that the law also enforces, by death on all who were disobedient against it., the same way. (death reigns by the law, by being put to death for offences committed, and by dying in their sins, as the sacrifices of the law were never able to fully take away the conscience of sins.)
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
You say that sin was not in the world until Adam's transgression, and the serpent deceiving Eve was not a sin until God reprimanded the serpent for it. Are you not defining the act (the serpent sinning) by the consequence (God reprimanding the serpent)? An act is not defined by it's consequence because an act could have many different consequences. The consequence is evidence of the act. God reprimanding the serpent is evidence of the serpent's sin. A sin that took place before Adam's disobedience.

It seems you are saying that the law is what causes death, not the sin. I would agree in that if you break the law, there is a consequence, but that consequence isn't an automatic effect of the law, but God's enforcement of the law. 'For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed where there is no law' This is stating that there are no legal repercussions where there is no law, not that there is no death where there is no law. This is evident by the next verse that tells us death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had no law to break.

Death reigned because a command was broken with Adam. Adam breaking the command didn't bring about an automatic effect of death, but the punishment (wages) of death (spiritual death). This is a death that all man has inherited. How else would death reign without any law? This death that all man has inherited is what leads us all into sin.

You say there is not such thing as spiritual death. Then what was the death that God said would take place in the day they at from the tree? If there is no such thing as spiritual death, then how did Eve know she had been deceived?

It is clear in scripture that we consist of three facets, body, soul, and spirit. The body (flesh) is fairly self explanatory. The soul is what animates the body. It is through the soul that we are aware of our own existence. Then there is the spirit. This is our connection to the divine (God). God is spirit and to carry out a relationship with God would require that we too have a spirit through which this relationship can exist.

At the end of Gen 3:22 God makes it clear that should Adam and Eve eat also from the tree of life, they would live forever. This would not be possible if sin eventually leads to physical death. That is a contradiction. God's statement only makes sense if physical death is a normal part of human existence. That rules out physical death being what God warned Adam of. The death of the soul would be indistinguishable from the death of the body since the soul is what animates the body. So that rules out the soul. Leaving the spirit to be the only place death could have taken place.

Also, when the serpent deceived Eve, he assured her of two things: that she wouldn't die, and that she would become like God in knowing good and evil. Knowing good and evil is confirmed by God in Gen 3:22. When the serpent said she wouldn't die, she would have understood this to be physical death since physical death was a normal part of existence. Spiritual death would have been unknowable until they had experienced it. So her not dying, as the serpent said, by her perspective was also true. So how did she come to realize she had been deceived? The only possible answer would be that she experienced spiritual death. Something deep within her had died. Where did these new emotions of guilt, shame, and fear arise from if nothing within her had changed?

Just as the trinity is never specifically mentioned in scripture, we are able to ascertain this through the evidence found in scripture. The same holds true for spiritual death.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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I see Ephesians 4:24 and 1 John 3:9 as refuting your contention that the new creature that God created by spiritual birth is corrupted by sin. To put it your way, they are pointing to our new natures (our divine natures) which are not corruptible. This is in contrast to the flesh which is still corrupted by sin and cannot be reformed. Why do you want to differnetiate between the old nature and the new nature and not address their differences?
I am not saying that the new creature, through spiritual birth, is corrupted by sin.

I think maybe you are misinterpreting what scripture is speaking about when it speaks of our two natures. We have a sinful nature (the old nature) which is found in the flesh. Then we are given a new nature which is found in the spirit, which we were without prior to salvation. The flesh does not change at salvation and therefore, the sinful nature (the old nature) remains. However, we now have a new nature (uncurruptable) in the spirit that is in opposition to the flesh. Hence the struggle Paul speaks of in Rom 7. Hence why we are told to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Unfortunately, until our corrupted flesh (bodies) are replaced with our new uncorrupted bodies, this struggle will remain. To what degree we find this struggle will vary from person to person, depending on their walk with God.

My whole point with my post is that much of Christianity today places too much focus on cleaning up the old nature. It is more focused on our behavior (dealing with the flesh) than it is our relationship with the Father (which is found in the spirit). It seems that unless we clean up our behavior, this is going to somehow impact our relationship with God, which as I said, is in the spirit. God is the one who made this relationship possible. He did everything required so that we could confidently come to Him for a relationship. We had not part in it other than accepting it through faith. So its silly to think that we could somehow impact our relationship with God through our behavior. Yet that seems to be all people focus on, sin, sin, sin. Which, as I made clear in my post, is merely a symptom of our condition (spiritual death). Once our condition has been cured (new spiritual life), that is when the freedom and simplicity in Christ begins.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Do you still have something to speak about when you don't promote perfection.



1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The doctrine of Sinless Perfection is wrong because it denies that the flesh still exists after salvation, that the desires of the flesh still influence our actions after salvation, and that grace is still needed after salvation.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I am not saying that the new creature, through spiritual birth, is corrupted by sin.

I think maybe you are misinterpreting what scripture is speaking about when it speaks of our two natures. We have a sinful nature (the old nature) which is found in the flesh. Then we are given a new nature which is found in the spirit, which we were without prior to salvation. The flesh does not change at salvation and therefore, the sinful nature (the old nature) remains. However, we now have a new nature (uncurruptable) in the spirit that is in opposition to the flesh. Hence the struggle Paul speaks of in Rom 7. Hence why we are told to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Unfortunately, until our corrupted flesh (bodies) are replaced with our new uncorrupted bodies, this struggle will remain. To what degree we find this struggle will vary from person to person, depending on their walk with God.
I am not interpreting the Scriptures incorrectly on this point. I was simply pointing to Scriptures which added depth to what you were saying about the flesh and the spirit. Nothing you said above about the old nature and the new nature contradicts my beliefs.
My whole point with my post is that much of Christianity today places too much focus on cleaning up the old nature.
I agree with you that there is a great deal false doctrine that is built on the false premise that the flesh can be trained to be better, less sinful, etc. This finds particular support in the false doctrine of Progressive Sanctification.
It is more focused on our behavior (dealing with the flesh) than it is our relationship with the Father (which is found in the spirit).
But behavior is at issue in living a successful Christian life because choosing to walk in the Spirit (Ga 5:16) and choosing to walk in lock step with the Spirit (Ga 5:25) is behavior that keeps the desires of the flesh from being gratified.
It seems that unless we clean up our behavior, this is going to somehow impact our relationship with God, which as I said, is in the spirit. God is the one who made this relationship possible. He did everything required so that we could confidently come to Him for a relationship. We had not part in it other than accepting it through faith. So its silly to think that we could somehow impact our relationship with God through our behavior. Yet that seems to be all people focus on, sin, sin, sin. Which, as I made clear in my post, is merely a symptom of our condition (spiritual death). Once our condition has been cured (new spiritual life), that is when the freedom and simplicity in Christ begins.
While it is true that our relationship stands even when we sin, we can and should expect our heavenly father to chasten us when we sin and to continue to do it until we are corrected (Heb 12). Everyone who is His child experiences His correction, it is not joyful but painful when we go through it, but it does yield "the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb 12:11).
 
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ARBITER01

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The doctrine of Sinless Perfection is wrong because it denies that the flesh still exists after salvation, that the desires of the flesh still influence our actions after salvation, and that grace is still needed after salvation.

I don't know of anyone claiming a sinless perfection as their personal doctrinal stance.

I myself do advocate a Holy Spirit control of sin whereby we are able to partake of HIS holiness, and that being part of the perfection we are to seek and arrive at as born again, Spirit-filled Christians, but we are in a body of flesh that can be tempted down here, so we must be vigilant against it if we are to allow HIM to operate through us like HE did with Jesus,.... our Christian goal being Christ-likeness.

Peter, Paul, John, James and others were not plagued with sin, so why are so many nowadays having this problem?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I don't know of anyone claiming a sinless perfection as their personal doctrinal stance.
There are a few of them who post on this site. I don't know any in real life.
I myself do advocate a Holy Spirit control of sin whereby we are able to partake of HIS holiness, and that being part of the perfection we are to seek and arrive at as born again, Spirit-filled Christians, but we are in a body of flesh that can be tempted down here, so we must be vigilant against it if we are to allow HIM to operate through us like HE did with Jesus,.... our Christian goal being Christ-likeness.
I consider Galatians 5:16-18 to be the key passage dealing with not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It informs us that the flesh can not be reformed because it is in adversarial opposition to the Spirit. It tells us that we thwart its desires when we carry out the desires of the Spirit because their desires are in adversarial opposition to one another. And it tells us that walking in the Spirit is not another form of legalism because being led by a person is different than being led by the precepts of law.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)​
Peter, Paul, John, James and others were not plagued with sin, so why are so many nowadays having this problem?
I don't think I understand the question. What does it mean to be "plagued with sin" -- a problem that people are plagued with today that wasn't experienced by people in NT times?
 
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ARBITER01

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I consider Galatians 5:16-18 to be the key passage dealing with not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It informs us that the flesh can not be reformed because it is in adversarial opposition to the Spirit. It tells us that we thwart its desires when we carry out the desires of the Spirit because their desires are in adversarial opposition to one another. And it tells us that walking in the Spirit is not another form of legalism because being led by a person is different than being led by the precepts of law.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)​

Our sin nature and human spirit was cleansed by the blood of Jesus when we were born again, it is the flesh and it's habits that The Holy Spirit is dealing with. We are no longer dominated by sin in our lives because of the blood of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is to constantly have victory over the flesh, so I would disagree about the flesh not being reformed. We are not living in a war where no side has victory.

How are we to move on to "perfection" (a word used by the writer of Hebrews) if the constant struggle of the flesh and The Holy Spirit is a stalemate?

I don't think I understand the question. What does it mean to be "plagued with sin" -- a problem that people are plagued with today that wasn't experienced by people in NT times?

It's just a question that I posed on here.

I find it funny that the website would codify a rule against victory over sin. If people's lives on here amount to nothing more than a constant struggle with sin year after year after year, then people on here don't have The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not winning the war for them because He is not there in the battle.
 
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