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Young earth vs Old earth?

linux.poet

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Hi folks, a friendly reminder of a Christian Forums rule:

  • "Calling out" a member is an unsolicited comment about another member in reference to something they may have said, their personal beliefs, their signature, or their avatar (challenging the member in a negative manner). This applies to any thread, whether the called out member is participating in that thread or not. Do not quote, or make comments about another member, in your signature or user title.
Ya’ll been talking about what Apple Sky believes quite long enough here, and dragging this thread off topic. Please get back on topic to what our new friend wants us to discuss, which is the biblical basis for either young or old earth. Thanks!

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NBB

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The bible could mean not literal 6 days, maybe they were like times not days.
In any case God created everything but for me old earth could still be biblical, and makes more sense.
Things like, light of stars could have not reached us, if the world was 6000 years.
Those layers of 'mud' geologist investigate etc, that makes sense formed with a lot of time.
 
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Derf

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The bible could mean not literal 6 days, maybe they were like times not days.
In any case God created everything but for me old earth could still be biblical, and makes more sense.
Things like, light of stars could have not reached us, if the world was 6000 years.
Those layers of 'mud' geologist investigate etc, that makes sense formed with a lot of time.
The thing about starlight is that if it reached earth in the time earth ticked off 4 days, it could have taken millions or billions of relative years in that amount of time on earth.

On the mud layers, it doesn't make sense to me that millions of years were required to lay down layers on earth, especially when some fossils ("polystrate") transcend layers. Since there are such things, the long ages required for each layer makes little sense.

Dinosaur soft tissue is another topic that doesn't make sense with millions of years of the dinosaurs being buried and surviving as soft tissue.

None of that is on the topic of the biblicity of one or the other. But when the bible talks about "ancient" times, it seems to refer mostly to something within it's own timeline, and commensurate with 6000 or so years.
 
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CoreyD

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The thing about starlight is that if it reached earth in the time earth ticked off 4 days, it could have taken millions or billions of relative years in that amount of time on earth.
The thing is, we note that light reached earth on day one. Genesis 1:3-5
So, before God started creating any living thing, light was available on earth.
What was not yet visible from earth, is the heavenly bodies, and that's understandable considering what might have been involved in the formation of the planet.

None of that is on the topic of the biblicity of one or the other. But when the bible talks about "ancient" times, it seems to refer mostly to something within it's own timeline, and commensurate with 6000 or so years.
That is true.
In contrast to the "Ancient of days". Daniel 7:9
 
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Derf

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The thing is, we note that light reached earth on day one. Genesis 1:3-5
So, before God started creating any living thing, light was available on earth.
What was not yet visible from earth, is the heavenly bodies, and that's understandable considering what might have been involved in the formation of the planet.
That light wasn't necessarily coming from heavenly bodies. In fact, since the light had to be separated from the dark, that first light must have been full-time, before there was an evening and morning. In other words, it would appear that the light was coming from all directions. The Big Bang Theory postulates a similar event, and starting at a time the fits, in the Photon Epoch. This was about 3 minutes after the Big Bang. That epoch supposedly lasted 240,000 years, but if the big bang timeline is collapsed into just days, That would certainly fit in the first day. I'm not sure exactly what to make of the Big Bang Theory, but it seems like the scientists have made some reasonable conjectures.
That is true.
In contrast to the "Ancient of days". Daniel 7:9
Yes, "Ancient of Days" appears to be a reference to someone who has been around for a very long time, measured in days. That would most likely speak of God's eternality, but only as compared to the people living and the earth itself.
 
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CoreyD

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That light wasn't necessarily coming from heavenly bodies. In fact, since the light had to be separated from the dark, that first light must have been full-time, before there was an evening and morning. In other words, it would appear that the light was coming from all directions. The Big Bang Theory postulates a similar event, and starting at a time the fits, in the Photon Epoch. This was about 3 minutes after the Big Bang. That epoch supposedly lasted 240,000 years, but if the big bang timeline is collapsed into just days, That would certainly fit in the first day. I'm not sure exactly what to make of the Big Bang Theory, but it seems like the scientists have made some reasonable conjectures.
Genesis 1:5-17
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”
14 Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light [x]to govern the day, and the lesser light [y]to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the [z]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and [aa]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

According to the account, there were not two days... one from an unknown source, and one from the sun.
 
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lismore

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Which one is biblical? explain why.
Young Earth is biblical. Man was created at the beginning of creation and that process was short- seven days only. The seven days of creation are the blueprint for our seven day week.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:16-17 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Mark 10:6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

God Bless :)
 
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Derf

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Genesis 1:5-17
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”
14 Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light [x]to govern the day, and the lesser light [y]to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the [z]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and [aa]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

According to the account, there were not two days... one from an unknown source, and one from the sun.
According to the account, there were indeed. Because the light that came from the thing made on Day 4 could not have reached the world on Day 1. The light source from Day 1 might have morphed into the Sun, but the Sun didn't exist before God made is (Day 4)--according to the account.
 
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Job 33:6

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Young Earth is biblical. Man was created at the beginning of creation and that process was short- seven days only. The seven days of creation are the blueprint for our seven day week.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:16-17 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Mark 10:6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

God Bless :)

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The Bible doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it by giving it form.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The beginning is when God began to create the heavens and the earth. It is not about the beginning of the material origins of the universe. Just like, in the beginning when I made/created a pizza, the pizza was formless, doesn't say anything about how long the formless pizza was around before I put it in the oven.
 
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lismore

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The Bible doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it by giving it form.
Hello! But it does. Jesus addressed your point in the scripture here:

“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)

The seven days of creation was the beginning, the earth was formless for moments only. There was nothing before this.

The scripture you reference in Genesis 1:1 also says the same thing:

'When God began to create the heavens and the earth'. All that follows is the beginning.

God Bless :)
 
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Job 33:6

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Hello! But it does. Jesus addressed your point in the scripture here:

“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)

The seven days of creation was the beginning, the earth was formless for moments only. There was nothing before this.

The scripture you reference in Genesis 1:1 also says the same thing:

'When God began to create the heavens and the earth'. All that follows is the beginning.

God Bless :)
The beginning is when God created the heavens and the earth. But that's not about material origins. It's about the beginning of God's actions.

Example:
In the beginning when I made a pizza, the pizza was formless and empty.
Or
When I began to make a pizza, the pizza was formeless and empty.

These statements do not say anything about how long the pizza was formless before I began to create it. At the time of creation, the earth was formless. But nothing is said about how long the earth was formless before that time.




Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The Bible doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it by giving it form.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The beginning is when God began to create the heavens and the earth. It is not about the beginning of the material origins of the universe. Just like, in the beginning when I made/created a pizza, the pizza was formless, doesn't say anything about how long the formless pizza was around before I put it in the oven.
 
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CoreyD

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According to the account, there were indeed. Because the light that came from the thing made on Day 4 could not have reached the world on Day 1.
Why not?

The light source from Day 1 might have morphed into the Sun, but the Sun didn't exist before God made is (Day 4)--according to the account.
The account reads...
14 Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall [u]serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they [v]shall serve as lights in the [w]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light [x]to govern the day, and the lesser light [y]to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the [z]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and [aa]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Here, the scriptures speak of lights being placed in the expanse to govern the day and night, and serve as signs, and to separate the light from the darkness.
In Genesis 1:1, we read that God created the heavens and the earth... The heavens referring to that mentioned at Genesis 2:1, 4; Exodus 20:11; Exodus 31:17 which is all the heavens as mentioned at Proverbs 8:27.

So, we don't have to speculate about an unknown light morphing into the sun, which requires us adding a narrative to the text, since we know that the word made does not necessitate something being newly created, but the reading can be taken as objects already in existence being "placed" or made to appear in the expanse, as visible indicators... to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; to serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years;.

Bear in mind, too, that you said, " the light had to be separated from the dark".
However, that is referring, not to the source of light, but to the light on the earth.
3...“[d]Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
It's important we carefully read the account to get what is happening, because everything being recorded from verse 2 is in relation to the earth.

Let there be light does not mean, let there be a light source.
Rather, let there be light on the watery deep mentioned in verse 2.
Like this:
genesis1-3to5-gif.353925


Further proof this is the case, is seen in the word for light, being used (אוֹר or).
This is different to the word מָאוֹר maor used for light in verse 14, which refers to the light source - a luminous body.

There are problems from a scriptural perspective of reading Genesis 1:14-18 as an origination of the heavenly bodies... not to mention problems with scientific facts.
It's actually saying that God created the earth as the only body in empty space, and then made everything else.
So, the earth is the oldest object in space, according to such a narrative.
That's both scripturally and scientifically inaccurate. Not true?

When God says, "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath... Isaiah 51:6, what are we seeing?
When David sang, "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork." Psalm 19:1, what was David seeing?
Understanding Genesis 1:1 as God creating the heavens and the earth. Then moving on to work on the earth from verse 2, and then make everything just right, will present us an accurate picture, would it not.
sun_moon_and_stars_viewed_from_a_hill_on_earth.jpeg
 
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CoreyD

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The beginning is when God created the heavens and the earth.
That's correct.

But that's not about material origins. It's about the beginning of God's actions.
Why not?

Example:
In the beginning when I made a pizza, the pizza was formless and empty.
Or
When I began to make a pizza, the pizza was formeless and empty.
These two statements are not the same.
"When I began", is not the same as "in the beginning".
When I began to make pizza, I had not made pizza. That's quite different to, I made pizza at this time - in the beginning.

These statements do not say anything about how long the pizza was formless before I began to create it.
:!?:
One of those statements expressly say God created the earth. I made the pizza, but it was incomplete.
Pizza is only pizza when it is completed though.. or maybe not. It can be uncooked pizza.
The earth does not need to have "toppings" in order to be physically earth.

Artist's conception of Hadean Eon Earth, when it was much hotter and inhospitable to all forms of life.

At the time of creation, the earth was formless. But nothing is said about how long the earth was formless before that time.
At the time of creation, the earth was formless.
That's it!
The earth existed at creation. It was something, but formless, or waste.

The phrase "the earth was formless and empty" in Genesis 1:2 describes the initial state of the earth immediately after its creation, characterized by chaos and lack of order. The Hebrew words used are "tohu" (תֹּהוּ), meaning "formless," "confusion," or "emptiness," and "bohu" (בֹּהוּ), meaning "void," "empty," or "without content". Together, "tohu v’bohu" (תֹּהוּ וָבֹהוּ) form a compound expression signifying a state of primordial matter that was shapeless, desolate, and devoid of life or structure.
This condition is not the result of a prior creation and destruction, as suggested by the gap theory, but rather the starting point of God's creative work, where the earth existed as an unformed and empty waste before God began to bring order. Darkness covered the surface of the deep, which is described as a chaotic, surging mass of water, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters, indicating divine presence and preparation for the act of creation.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

The Bible doesn't say how long the earth was formless before God began to create it by giving it form.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
The beginning is when God began to create the heavens and the earth. It is not about the beginning of the material origins of the universe. Just like, in the beginning when I made/created a pizza, the pizza was formless, doesn't say anything about how long the formless pizza was around before I put it in the oven.
According to the reading of Genesis, the beginning is when God created the heavens and earth. Not began to.
However, I like your illustration here, since you now need to put the pizza in the oven, to make it just right. :smile:
 
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