What Jesus Said About Adam and Eve

DialecticSkeptic · Wednesday at 7:20 AM

The question is, “Was the first and last Adam created in the same way?” We know the last Adam, Jesus Christ, was a whole multitude of people (which he will present to the Father). So, was the first Adam also a multitude of people? That’s why God had to flood the world, to remove him so God could begin again to create man in his image. That man is Jesus Christ and his body, which he will present to the Father on his return.

Were the first and last Adams created in the same way?

No, for the last Adam was Christ Jesus and he was not created. He is the creator, not a creation.

Were the first and last Adams a multitude of people?

No, both were historical individuals. Although they each represented a corporate body of people as federal heads, such multitudes did not constitute either person. It is not the new humanity but Jesus Christ himself who is the last Adam, and the new humanity is “in” the last Adam. The union of head and body is covenantal, not ontological—“in Christ,” not “is Christ.”

In the same way, it is not the old humanity but Adam himself who is the first Adam, and the old humanity is “in” the first Adam.

Note: The flood did not remove the first Adam or his race (cf. Gen. 8:21) but judged its corruption while preserving the covenant line through Noah, from whom Christ, the true image, would come. And that’s through Noah, not from Noah (Luke 3:36-38).

Yarddog · Wednesday at 5:57 PM

Dale said:
That is a good point. I do have a response.

[Jesus says,]
“But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the
dead rise, for he calls the Lord `the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’.
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Luke 20:37-38 NIV

There are parallel passages in Matt 22:31-32 and Mark 12:26-27.

Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive. He never says any such thing about Adam and Eve. That leaves open the possibility that the Garden of Eden story is a parable. It has a moral, a point, but Adam and Eve are not historical figures.

The Garden story is an allegory, not a parable. In an allegory the characters may or may not be real people. Paul tells us the Sarah and Hagar are allegories.

Michie · Wednesday at 8:11 PM

Yarddog said:
The Garden story is an allegory, not a parable. In an allegory the characters may or may not be real people. Paul tells us the Sarah and Hagar are allegories.

As a Catholic surely you know what the Church says in the subject? Adam and Eve are real people. So are Sarah and Hagar.

Yarddog · Wednesday at 9:45 PM

Michie said:
As a Catholic surely you know what the Church says in the subject? Adam and Eve are real people. So are Sarah and Hagar.

I didn't say that they weren't. The allegory is more important than they real.

Michie · Wednesday at 9:49 PM

Yarddog said:
I didn't say that they weren't. The allegory is more important than they real.

Yeah ok, but that’s not the impression it gave by what you posted. Paul did not say Sarah and Hagar were allegories.

DialecticSkeptic · Wednesday at 10:22 PM

Michie said:
Yeah ok, but that’s not the impression it gave by what you posted. Paul did not say Sarah and Hagar were allegories.

He literally did:

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent, while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise. These things may be treated as an allegory, for these women represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren woman who does not bear children; break forth and shout, you who have no birth pains, because the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband." But you, brothers and sisters, are children of the promise like Isaac. But just as at that time the one born by natural descent persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so it is now. But what does the scripture say? "Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son" of the free woman. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31)

Michie · Wednesday at 10:31 PM

DialecticSkeptic said:
He literally did:

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent, while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise. These things may be treated as an allegory, for these women represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren woman who does not bear children; break forth and shout, you who have no birth pains, because the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband." But you, brothers and sisters, are children of the promise like Isaac. But just as at that time the one born by natural descent persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so it is now. But what does the scripture say? "Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son" of the free woman. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31)

He was talking about two covenants. Not if Sarah or Hagar are not real flesh and blood people that existed. They did. And Paul never said otherwise.

Yarddog · Wednesday at 10:46 PM

Michie said:
Yeah ok, but that’s not the impression it gave by what you posted. Paul did not say Sarah and Hagar were allegories.

Yes he did. Sarah is the new Covenant and Hagar is the Old. This message is more important than if they were real or not.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
Galatians 4 : 22
23.
Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
24
Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
25.
Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
26.
But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27.

Michie · Wednesday at 10:59 PM

Yarddog said:
Yes he did. Sarah is the new Covenant and Hagar is the Old. This message is more important than if they were real or not.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
Galatians 4 : 22
23.
Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
24
Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
25.
Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
26.
But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27.

Does that mean that they were not real people to you? The Church says otherwise. Because Paul used their situations to describe two covenants does not mean they were not historical people in our salvation history.

Yarddog · Wednesday at 11:19 PM

Michie said:
Does that mean that they were not real people to you?

Did you read what I wrote??? Allegory doesn't mean that they weren't real people.

Biblical allegory: Biblical allegories show stories used in the Bible to convey Christian teachings. These stories often evoke Biblical themes such as the conflict between evil and good.

Michie · Wednesday at 11:28 PM

Yarddog said:
Did you read what I wrote??? Allegory doesn't mean that they weren't real people.

Biblical allegory: Biblical allegories show stories used in the Bible to convey Christian teachings. These stories often evoke Biblical themes such as the conflict between evil and good.

But you started with saying the actual Adam and Eve was an allegory. Yes. I read what you wrote.

Yarddog · Thursday at 12:33 AM

Michie said:
But you started with saying the actual Adam and Eve was an allegory. Yes. I read what you wrote.

Evidently you haven't been actually reading what I wrote.
I said, "In an allegory the characters may or may not be real people."
I didn't say anything about Adam and Eve were not real. Yet, even though I tried to get that point across to you, you couldn't accept it.

Dale · Thursday at 6:37 AM

DialecticSkeptic said:
He literally did:

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent, while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise. These things may be treated as an allegory, for these women represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren woman who does not bear children; break forth and shout, you who have no birth pains, because the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband." But you, brothers and sisters, are children of the promise like Isaac. But just as at that time the one born by natural descent persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so it is now. But what does the scripture say? "Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son" of the free woman. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31)

What translation are you using?

Yarddog · Thursday at 9:53 AM

Dale said:
What translation are you using?

The allegorical stories of Genesis reveal truth about Jesus, Christianity, the Law, righteousness,etc.. This doesn't mean that the people were not real people but the hidden meaning is more important than is literally written.

DialecticSkeptic · Thursday at 8:29 PM

Michie said:
He was talking about two covenants. Not if Sarah or Hagar are not real flesh and blood people that existed. They did. And Paul never said otherwise.

1. You claimed that Paul never said Sarah and Hagar were allegories. But he literally said these two women who existed in history can serve as allegories.

2. Sarah and Hagar actually existed and served as allegories. Likewise, Adam and Eve actually existed and served as allegories—entirely consistent with what @Yarddog said.

DialecticSkeptic · Thursday at 8:30 PM

Dale said:
What translation are you using?

New English Translation (NET). The ESV says essentially the same thing ("this may be interpreted allegorically").

Michie · Thursday at 8:38 PM

No I said they were real people. And Paul was discussing covenants. Admittedly, I was scattered when I read this thread given the other things I was attending to at the time. Adam, Eve, Sarah, Hagar were real people. Using their situations as allegories to teach about covenants is not the issue, my misunderstanding was quickly reading through the thread while distracted and misunderstanding. So if you want to debate it, you aren’t going to find it with me. My apologies for hopping in and misunderstanding.

DialecticSkeptic · Thursday at 10:30 PM

Michie said:
No I said they were real people. And Paul was discussing covenants. Admittedly, I was scattered when I read this thread given the other things I was attending to at the time. Adam, Eve, Sarah, Hagar were real people. Using their situations as allegories to teach about covenants is not the issue, my misunderstanding was quickly reading through the thread while distracted and misunderstanding. So if you want to debate it, you aren’t going to find it with me. My apologies for hopping in and misunderstanding.

That's fair: You misunderstood. No worries, mate.

What Jesus Said About Adam and Eve

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