Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?

Clare73 · Wednesday at 3:38 PM

HARK! said:
I know people who are incapacitated, who live on government assistance; but most people have to work.

(CLV) 2Th 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave this charge to you: that "If anyone is not willing to work, neither let him eat."

Problem with understanding text?

Read post #56 again.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 3:39 PM

HARK! said:
I worship every day. I rest on the Shabbat as eternally commanded.

Exodus 31:16 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 The people of Isra’el are to keep the Shabbat, to observe Shabbat through all their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Yes please post the exact wording of those who you claim spoke against Yah's eternal word.

I also worship every day but go to services on the Lords day which is Sunday. If you are Jewish then Exodus 31:16 applies to you.

Here is the ECF citations. Sorry for the length. I have others from the early third century if you wish to see them.

The Didache

1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(Didache Chapter XIV.11 —Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation (The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)
Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master (Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).
During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)
For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,1 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).
“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)
“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)

HARK! · Wednesday at 4:42 PM

Hentenza said:
The one grafted into the tree (Rom. 11).

Yes, that tree is Israel. The branch of the tree of the dying root is grafted into the tree of the living root. We see examples of this with Rebecca, and the mixed multitude who joined Moses. This is nothing new.

HARK! · Wednesday at 4:43 PM

Clare73 said:
Problem with understanding text?

Read post #56 again.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt regarding the ambiguity.

HARK! · Wednesday at 5:15 PM

Hentenza said:
Here is the ECF citations

Is not Yahshua the lord of the Sabbath?

Scripture makes it clear that the Sabbath is the 7th day. mot the 1st.

Didache is vindicated of speaking against YHWH.

The Letter of Barnabas

Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation (The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)
Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74]).

Did you read the scripture that this letter is quoting for context?

YHYW is speaking to a lawless group who seem to think that sacrifice is a substitute for repentance and obedience. Without obedience, sacrifice is of no value.

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Yah turns from those who pretend to be in covenant with him by observing his Sabbath covenant, then continue in their willful wickedness.

Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master (Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).
During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Ignatius of Antioch (/ɪɡˈneɪʃəs/; Ancient Greek: Ἰγνάτιος Ἀντιοχείας, romanized: Ignátios Antiokheías; died c. 108/140),[2][3][7][8][9] also known as Ignatius Theophorus (Ἰγνάτιος ὁ Θεοφόρος, Ignátios ho Theophóros, 'the God-bearing'), was an early Christian writer and Patriarch of Antioch. While en route to Rome, where he met his martyrdom, Ignatius wrote a series of letters. This correspondence forms a central part of a later collection of works by the Apostolic Fathers. He is considered one of the three most important of these, together with Clement of Rome and Polycarp. Although the authenticity of his letters has been questioned, they continue to serve as an example of early Christian theology,

Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)
For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,1 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).
“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)
“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)

Dialogue with Trypho

Setting and structure

The setting is presented as a chance meeting between Justin and Trypho in Ephesus. Justin had just converted to Christianity from a philosophical background and Trypho had just fled the disturbances in Judea.[1]

Dialogue with Trypho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would not consider this work to be authoritative over YHWH himself.

HARK! · Wednesday at 5:19 PM

Hentenza said:
Israel in general rejected Jesus

False

True Israel does not reject Yahshua.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 5:42 PM

HARK! said:
Yes, that tree is Israel. The branch of the tree of the dying root is grafted into the tree of the living root. We see examples of this with Rebecca, and the mixed multitude who joined Moses. This is nothing new.

The tree is the collective people of God. The natural branches are Israel while the wild branches are the gentiles. The root is God who supports both.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭17‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 11:17-21 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the bra | New American Standard Bible - N

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the bra

bible.com

HARK! · Wednesday at 5:45 PM

Hentenza said:
The new covenant of blood is for the church.

It's not new. It's renewed and there are many covenants for the assembly (church) including the sabbath covenant.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:03 PM

HARK! said:
View attachment 372736

Is not Yahshua the lord of the Sabbath?

Scripture makes it clear that the Sabbath is the 7th day. mot the 1st.

Didache is vindicated of of speaking against YHWH.

Jesus is indeed the Lord of the Sabbath and fulfilled the Sabbath upon Himself. God can do as He pleases.

HARK! said:
The Letter of Barnabas

Did you read the scripture that this letter is quoting for context?

YHYW is speaking to a lawless group who seem to think that sacrifice is a substitute for repentance and obedience. Without obedience, sacrifice is of no value.

Yes. He is talking about the law overall including the ceremonial law.

HARK! said:
(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Yah turns from those who pretend to be in covenant with him by observing his Sabbath covenant, then continue in their willful wickedness.

Who are you addressing this to?

HARK! said:
Ignatius of Antioch

Ignatius of Antioch (/ɪɡˈneɪʃəs/; Ancient Greek: Ἰγνάτιος Ἀντιοχείας, romanized: Ignátios Antiokheías; died c. 108/140),[2][3][7][8][9] also known as Ignatius Theophorus (Ἰγνάτιος ὁ Θεοφόρος, Ignátios ho Theophóros, 'the God-bearing'), was an early Christian writer and Patriarch of Antioch. While en route to Rome, where he met his martyrdom, Ignatius wrote a series of letters. This correspondence forms a central part of a later collection of works by the Apostolic Fathers. He is considered one of the three most important of these, together with Clement of Rome and Polycarp. Although the authenticity of his letters has been questioned, they continue to serve as an example of early Christian theology,

Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wiki again?

HARK! said:
Justin Martyr

Dialogue with Trypho
Setting and structure
The setting is presented as a chance meeting between Justin and Trypho in Ephesus. Justin had just converted to Christianity from a philosophical background and Trypho had just fled the disturbances in Judea.[1]

Dialogue with Trypho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So? He is writing from what he is experiencing. New or not he is still a witness to when the early church was worshipping.

HARK! said:
I would not consider this work to be authoritative over YHWH himself.

Of course you wouldn’t but you asked.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:04 PM

HARK! said:
False

True Israel does not reject Yahshua.

Define true Israel please.

HARK! · Wednesday at 6:10 PM

Hentenza said:
The tree is the collective people of God.

That would be Israel.

Hentenza said:
The natural branches are Israel while the wild branches are the gentiles.

The Goyim are no longer Goyim when they are grafted into Israel.

Hentenza said:
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief

I have read that the ancient Greek word for "believe" is translated as "obey" throughout translations of of secular ancient Greek manuscripts; but that bit is most often translated as "believe" when it comes to the Bible.

Ancient Greek

Etymology

From πιθ- (pith-) (zero-grade of the root of πείθω (peíthō, “to persuade; to trust”)) +‎ -τος (-tos, verbal adjective suffix).

Pronunciation

(5th BCE Attic) IPA(key): /pis.tós/
(1st CE Egyptian) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/
(4th CE Koine) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/
(10th CE Byzantine) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/
(15th CE Constantinopolitan) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/

Adjective

πῐστός • (pistós) m (feminine πῐστή, neuter πῐστόν); first/second declension

(passive voice) faithful, trusty
(active voice)
1. faithful, believing
2. obedient, loyal

2 Kings tells us that the Northern Tribes were cut off for their disobedience. Had they believed; they should have obeyed.

(CLV) Ja 1:22
Now become doers of the word, and not only listeners, beguiling yourselves.

HARK! · Wednesday at 6:17 PM

Hentenza said:
Jesus is indeed the Lord of the Sabbath and fulfilled the Sabbath upon Himself.

..and he calls us to fulfill the Sabbath upon ourselves.

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:23 PM

HARK! said:
It's not new. It's renewed and there are many covenants for the assembly (church) including the sabbath covenant.

Jesus says that it is a new covenant.

“And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood.

bible.com

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:30 PM

HARK! said:
..and he calls us to fulfill the Sabbath upon ourselves.

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Jesus came indeed to fulfill (complete) the law. Not one iota of the law will pass or be annulled since those under the law remain under the law.
Now, the law no longer applies to the Christian. Here what Paul says about the law.

“Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭2‬-‭6‬, ‭13‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Galatians 5:2-18 Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the who | New American Standard Bible -

Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the who

bible.com

it’s pretty clear to me.

Hentenza · Wednesday at 6:49 PM

HARK! said:
That would be Israel.

I don’t agree.

HARK! said:
The Goyim are no longer Goyim when they are grafted into Israel.

They are. The natural branches are broken off. A Christian believer is not a Jew.

HARK! said:
I have read that the ancient Greek word for "believe" is translated as "obey" throughout translations of of secular ancient Greek manuscripts; but that bit is most often translated as "believe" when it comes to the Bible.

Ancient Greek
Etymology
From πιθ- (pith-) (zero-grade of the root of πείθω (peíthō, “to persuade; to trust”)) +‎ -τος (-tos, verbal adjective suffix).

Pronunciation

(5th BCE Attic) IPA(key): /pis.tós/

(1st CE Egyptian) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/

(4th CE Koine) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/

(10th CE Byzantine) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/

(15th CE Constantinopolitan) IPA(key): /pisˈtos/

Adjective
πῐστός • (pistós) m (feminine πῐστή, neuter πῐστόν); first/second declension

(passive voice) faithful, trusty

(active voice)

faithful, believing

obedient, loyal

2 Kings tells us that the Northern Tribes were cut off for their disobedience. Had they believed; they should have obeyed.

πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

I don’t see “obey“ as part of the definition.

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ja 1:22
Now become doers of the word, and not only listeners, beguiling yourselves.

Again, who are you addressing this verse to?

HARK! · Wednesday at 7:01 PM

Hentenza said:
Define true Israel please.

I will give you my interpretation of the Ancient Hebrew.

YSRAL

Y(Yod) S(Shin) R(Resh) A(Aleph) L(Lamed)

First off, there were no spaces between the otiot (letters) in Ancient Hebrew. The otiot were all written in a single string or word. The spaces to make separate words within the string were added later; thereby those divisions reflect a specific interpretation. Numerous interpretations can be derived from the unbroken string.

Second, Ancient Hebrew is a concrete (as opposed to abstract) language, built on concrete thought. Concrete thought is built on what can be experience though the senses, and opposed to abstract philosophy.

Third, each ote (letter), in Ancient Hebrew, is a pictograph; and each has it's own meanings, which can be interpreted in differnt ways.

Fourth, Ancient Hebrew words are built on two ote (letter) roots.

Let's start with the root SH-R (Shin Resh).

The Shin depicts teeth. The Resh depicts a man's head.

The teeth can be interpreted as pressure. The man's head can be interpreted as a beginning.

SH-R is the Hebrew word for cord. To make ancient cords, one would start at the beginning with the fibers, and tightly (pressure) weave them into a cord.

Now lets build a word on SH-R by adding the Y.

Y (Yod) is a pictograph of a hand and arm.

If one holds a cord tight; it becomes straight; just as the righteous one makes a straight path.

YaSHaR means straight in concrete Ancient Hebrew. It is often translated as righteous in abstract Greek thought.

Now let's look at the AL in YSRAL

The A (Aleph) depicts an ox's head. It can be interpreted as headship or strength,

The Greeks took the Ancient Hebrew Aleph-Beyt, and turned the letters upside down and backwards. Then they wrote it from left to right, instead of right to left. Seems like witchcraft to me. The modern English Alphabet evolved from the Ancient Hebrew Aleph-Beyt, through the Ancient Greek alphabet.

If you turn the letter A upside down; you can still see the ox's head, with his horns.

Anyway, I digress.

The L (Lamed) depicts a shepherd's staff. It can be interpreted as guidance or being yoked.

Many people call God El; but if you look at the Ancient Hebrew, you will see that the word is AL (Aleph Lamed)

One interpretation is that your God is the headship that you are yoked to.

So YSR (Yashar) AL (AL) can be interpreted as the straight (righteous) headship that you are yoked to (God).

Hentenza · Wednesday at 7:04 PM

HARK! said:
I will give you my interpretation of the Ancient Hebrew.

YSRAL

Y(Yod) S(Shin) R(Resh) A(Aleph) L(Lamed)

First off, there were no spaces between the otiot (letters) in Ancient Hebrew. The otiot were all written in a single string or word. The spaces to make separate words within the string were added later; thereby those divisions reflect a specific interpretation. Numerous interpretations can be derived from the unbroken string.

Second, Ancient Hebrew is a concrete (as opposed to abstract) language, built on concrete thought. Concrete thought is built on what can be experience though the senses, and opposed to abstract philosophy.

Third, each ote (letter), in Ancient Hebrew, is a pictograph; and each has it's own meanings, which can be interpreted in differnt ways.

Fourth, Ancient Hebrew words are built on two ote (letter) roots.

Let's start with the root SH-R (Shin Resh).

The Shin depicts teeth. The Resh depicts a man's head.

The teeth can be interpreted as pressure. The man's head can be interpreted as a beginning.

SH-R is the Hebrew word for cord. To make ancient cords, one would start at the beginning with the fibers, and tightly (pressure) weave them into a cord.

Now lets build a word on SH-R by adding the Y.

Y (Yod) is a pictograph of a hand and arm.

If one holds a cord tight; it becomes straight; just as the righteous one makes a straight path.

YaSHaR means straight in concrete Ancient Hebrew. It is often translated as righteous in abstract Greek thought.

Now let's look at the AL in YSRAL

The A (Aleph) depicts an ox's head. It can be interpreted as headship or strength,

The Greeks took the Ancient Hebrew Aleph-Beyt, and turned the letters upside down and backwards. Then they wrote it from left to right, instead of right to left. Seems like witchcraft to me. The modern English Alphabet evolved from the Ancient Hebrew Aleph-Beyt, through the Ancient Greek alphabet.

If you turn the letter A upside down; you can still see the ox's head, with his horns.

Anyway, I digress.

The L (Lamed) depicts a shepherd's staff. It can be interpreted as guidance or being yoked.

Many people call God El; but if you look at the Ancient Hebrew, you will see that the word is AL (Aleph Lamed)

One interpretation is that your God is the headship that you are yoked to.

So YSR (Yashar) AL (AL) can be interpreted as the straight (righteous) headship that you are yoked to (God).

Ok thanks for the Hebrew lesson but the question was to define what you mean by true Israel.

HARK! · Wednesday at 7:13 PM

Hentenza said:
the question was to define what you mean by true Israel.

I just explained it in detail for you.

I put a lot of work into explaining that for you.

Hebrew names have meaning. What do you think Yashar Al means?

Hentenza · Wednesday at 7:30 PM

HARK! said:
I just explained it in detail for you.

I put a lot of work into explaining that for you.

Hebrew names have meaning. What do you think Yashar Al means?

Forgive my ignorance but I don‘t understand how your explanation of Hebrew reveals who the real Israel is. I don’t understand your cryptic answer. In my understanding the Israel of Jesus time was the real Israel. I have no reason to believe that they were not. Before Jesus crucifixion Jesus lamented for Jerusalem, and consequently Israel.

““Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23‬:‭37‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 23:37-39 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you | New American Standard Bible -

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you

bible.com

Israel rejected the Messiah so their house is left desolate until they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

HARK! · Wednesday at 7:47 PM

Hentenza said:
Forgive my ignorance but I don‘t understand how your explanation of Hebrew reveals who the real Israel is. I don’t understand your cryptic answer. In my understanding the Israel of Jesus time was the real Israel.

The true Yashar Al (Israel) Of Yah-shua's (Jesus) (Yah YHWH)-(Shua Saved Salvation) time, were those who are yoked to righteous headship. it is those Yashar AL that will be saved through Yah's Shua.

This doesn't change, nor has it changed.

It is forever settled in heaven.

(CLV) Ps 119:89
For the eon, O Yahweh, Your word is stationed in the heavens.

(CLV) Ps 119:90
For generation after generation is Your faithfulness; You have established the earth, and it shall stand.

(CLV) Ps 119:91
They stand today by Your ordinances, For they all are Your servants.

(CLV) Ps 119:92
Unless Your law had been my delectation, Then I would have perished in my humiliation.

(CLV) Ps 119:93
For the eon I shall not forget Your precepts, For by them have You revived me.

(CLV) Ps 119:94
I am Yours; save me, For I have sought after Your precepts.

Do you believe that the Pharisees were the true Yashar Al in Yahshua's time?

Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?