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stevevw

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Steve, I could dismantle nearly all of your points here, but who has that kind of time or motivation? Not I............................... besides, I'm attempting to keep solidarity with fellow Trinitarian Christians, however much so many of them seem to detest my effort to do so.

My as yet unpacked point is: one doesn't have to subscribe to 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) Wave Feminism in order to apply better, fuller Hermeneutics to how we read the Bible where women and their roles in life and the Church are concerned. In fact, one doesn't even have to subscribe to merely 1st Wave Feminism either.
Hi Phil, I forgot about this thread and am surprised its still open lol. But not actually going. But it seems my imquistiove mind has led me back from unrelated investigations. Or rather I was not thinking of feminism but rather the current political situation and violence.

But it seems this kind of investigation will bring up the cultural development of society and we then look into the history of politics, philosophical worldviews ect to try and understand whats going on.

Thus this brought me to what I think is one of the best commentaries or explanations if you like on how feminism relates in todays society.

Not 1st or 2nd wave feminism which was really a genuine movement responding to the injustices of gender inequality. Or even 3rd wave which fundementally wanted to apply the same principle to other groups.

But what feminist patterns of thinking has developed into in relation to how this is now spread to the same patterns of thinking across insitutions and generally in society such as reflecting social norms.

It was ever only meant to rebalance things. But has become another imbalance just like over mascullinisation. An over correction which is now being seen in the ideological thinking pattersn in ideas such as Woke and cancel culture.

I won't elaborate much more as this is my take. But it seems what this academic (Helen Andrews) is saying is being supported by the data and fits or explains very well what is currently happening that we could wonder how we missed it as a possible explanation.

Oh also disregard the title it is nothing like that. Its an academic explanation I think that makes good sense in explaing things.


 
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The Liturgist

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My objection to this thread from an Orthodox perspective is that prior to the 18th and 19th century, the word Patriarchy was used as a title, to refer to the Patriarchs of the Old Testament and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Churches, such as of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, which along with Rome were the five ancient Patriarchs (the Pentarchy).

The application of the word Patriarchy to refer to misogynistic societies has the effect of implying that the Orthodox Church is misogynistic, which is obviously not the case considering that the saint we venerate above all others is the Theotokos, the very Mother of God. You cannot venerate Our Lady as much as we do and then abuse other women who like our glorious Lady Theotokos and our other female saints, such as St. Theclas and St. Nino, equals to the Apostles, so brilliantly reflect the image of God.
 
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RamiC

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But what feminist patterns of thinking has developed into in relation to how this is now spread to the same patterns of thinking across insitutions and generally in society such as reflecting social norms.

It was ever only meant to rebalance things. But has become another imbalance just like over mascullinisation. An over correction which is now being seen in the ideological thinking pattersn in ideas such as Woke and cancel culture.
"Woke" includes transgender ideology, which conflicts with some feminist perspectives - "Roughly half of the anti-reform submissions came from Christian conservative groups, which traditionally oppose abortion and same sex marriage; the other half were submitted by women’s groups that fight for these rights." Christian Right and some UK feminists ‘unlikely allies’ against trans rights

"Cancel culture" emerged from the internet not feminism - "In the pre-internet era, public backlash unfolded slowly. Scandals took weeks or months to circulate in newspapers, on TV, or through word of mouth. Today, outrage travels at the speed of a retweet, a share, or a TikTok clip. When someone crosses a line—or even appears to—the court of public opinion is ready to pass judgment immediately." Cancel Culture: Social Media’s Sword of Public Opinion
 
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Paidiske

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The application of the word Patriarchy to refer to misogynistic societies has the effect of implying that the Orthodox Church is misogynistic, which is obviously not the case considering that the saint we venerate above all others is the Theotokos, the very Mother of God. You cannot venerate Our Lady as much as we do and then abuse other women who like our glorious Lady Theotokos and our other female saints, such as St. Theclas and St. Nino, equals to the Apostles, so brilliantly reflect the image of God.
Sorry, but this doesn't wash. Upholding the Theotokos doesn't necessarily entail an attitude free of sexism or misogyny; indeed, ideas about the mother of our Lord have often been used in ways which further the subjugation of women. (There's a helpful book on that called Alone of All Her Sex - not a new work, I read it a long time ago - which helpfully unpacks some of the problems with the way Marian ideology has often been harmful to women). And the Orthodox churches are not free of the abuse of women, or sexism, or misogyny (no group is).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi Phil, I forgot about this thread and am surprised its still open lol. But not actually going. But it seems my imquistiove mind has led me back from unrelated investigations. Or rather I was not thinking of feminism but rather the current political situation and violence.

But it seems this kind of investigation will bring up the cultural development of society and we then look into the history of politics, philosophical worldviews ect to try and understand whats going on.

Thus this brought me to what I think is one of the best commentaries or explanations if you like on how feminism relates in todays society.

Not 1st or 2nd wave feminism which was really a genuine movement responding to the injustices of gender inequality. Or even 3rd wave which fundementally wanted to apply the same principle to other groups.

But what feminist patterns of thinking has developed into in relation to how this is now spread to the same patterns of thinking across insitutions and generally in society such as reflecting social norms.

It was ever only meant to rebalance things. But has become another imbalance just like over mascullinisation. An over correction which is now being seen in the ideological thinking pattersn in ideas such as Woke and cancel culture.

I won't elaborate much more as this is my take. But it seems what this academic (Helen Andrews) is saying is being supported by the data and fits or explains very well what is currently happening that we could wonder how we missed it as a possible explanation.

Oh also disregard the title it is nothing like that. Its an academic explanation I think that makes good sense in explaing things.



Hi Phil, I forgot about this thread and am surprised its still open lol. But not actually going. But it seems my imquistiove mind has led me back from unrelated investigations. Or rather I was not thinking of feminism but rather the current political situation and violence.

But it seems this kind of investigation will bring up the cultural development of society and we then look into the history of politics, philosophical worldviews ect to try and understand whats going on.

Thus this brought me to what I think is one of the best commentaries or explanations if you like on how feminism relates in todays society.

Not 1st or 2nd wave feminism which was really a genuine movement responding to the injustices of gender inequality. Or even 3rd wave which fundementally wanted to apply the same principle to other groups.

But what feminist patterns of thinking has developed into in relation to how this is now spread to the same patterns of thinking across insitutions and generally in society such as reflecting social norms.

It was ever only meant to rebalance things. But has become another imbalance just like over mascullinisation. An over correction which is now being seen in the ideological thinking pattersn in ideas such as Woke and cancel culture.

I won't elaborate much more as this is my take. But it seems what this academic (Helen Andrews) is saying is being supported by the data and fits or explains very well what is currently happening that we could wonder how we missed it as a possible explanation.

Oh also disregard the title it is nothing like that. Its an academic explanation I think that makes good sense in explaing things.



.... modern wokeness is a 21st century permutation of a confluence of social responses going back to the late Enlightenment and then catalyzed further by Marx and other similar Socialists and Anarchists. Whatever "feminization" is permeating today's culture, it is a lack of solid analysis to think that human emotions are the main culprit manifesting in today's Zeitgeist. To assert as such is a mistaken conflation.

While these socially minded articles you've chosen offer is an interesting spin, but it's only one thin nuance of the ongoing problem, not the whole ball of yarn.

Try studying Patriarchy as a 5,000+ year phenomenon rather than as a knee-jerk reaction to anything and everything that folks on the Left just happen to sporadically spit out. Just because woke is broke doesn't mean that women (or non-white ethnic groups) haven't been unjustly pushed to the side. It also doesn't mean that all we see going on today is a result of women gaining control of this or that area of society or of corporate structures. For you to all too firmly assume that this is the case is a cop-out and your reliance on a handful of articles is a form of superficial analysis that reeks of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Moreover, and biblically speaking, the Jewish framework of the Biblical worldview holds BOTH human emotions and human intelligence in unison as God given capacities. Trying to tear one away from the other, or grossly prioritizing one over the other, actually de-humanizes what the Lord has created.
 
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stevevw

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"Woke" includes transgender ideology, which conflicts with some feminist perspectives - "Roughly half of the anti-reform submissions came from Christian conservative groups, which traditionally oppose abortion and same sex marriage; the other half were submitted by women’s groups that fight for these rights." Christian Right and some UK feminists ‘unlikely allies’ against trans rights

"Cancel culture" emerged from the internet not feminism - "In the pre-internet era, public backlash unfolded slowly. Scandals took weeks or months to circulate in newspapers, on TV, or through word of mouth. Today, outrage travels at the speed of a retweet, a share, or a TikTok clip. When someone crosses a line—or even appears to—the court of public opinion is ready to pass judgment immediately." Cancel Culture: Social Media’s Sword of Public Opinion
I am not talking about specifics. We can all find specific examples that will be different or have some individual nuances. Such as social media being an influence in itself.

I am referring more to culture wide patterns of thinking. Such as the masculline patterns of thinking that prevaded male dominated institutions and societal norms.

Feminism was a rightful rising up against injustices against women. Like civil rights was to racism. But as feminism became more successful and has achieved equality there has been an overcorrection. Now we are seeing the opposite of masculline dominated insitutions and norms. Its become the femine pattern of thinking within institutions and norms.

This is due women now achieving dominance in a growing number of industries. Its a natural phenomena just as it happened when men dominated.

The rational is that basically the natural differences and traits on average are different for men and women. Men are more agressive, competitive and thrive on conflict. Whereas women seek to avoid conflict, are more agreeable and are more emotional and social. They want to nurture and avoid the harsh aspects of life and protect and sooth people from this.

This is all natural and not any criticism of men and women. There are individual examples where this may not be the case. But we are speaking on a culture or societal and human wide basis in the patterns of thinking.

As we all agree that masculline dominated insitutions and norms was the basis for society. There were certain patterns based on natural male traits but exaggerated ie macho, too competitive, dog eat dog, trying to outdo each other, even to the point of obsession with winning or beating the next bloke. Men were leaders, only men were capable of certain industries because it demanded male traits or qualities ect.

So its logical that just as the over emphasis on masculline patterns of thinking influenced how we ordered things and was the basis for policies, practice and norms. That when women began to dominate that an overuse of feminine patterns was always going to happen and influence thinking.

According to the paper this is supported by empiricle evidence. As women have dominated certain industries we have seen the change from masculline patterns to feminine patterns.

Primarily cancel culture for example is about not even being willing to hear opposing views and beliefs because they are percieved as coinflict, too confrontational, as stirring up the nest and even a threat to some. This is related to how feminist patterns which are really basic female patterns in nature. Which is to avoid confrontation and conflict and to create a safe and nurturing environment.

Like PC which is about making the environment inclusive to all and trying to accommodate those who are more sensitive to difficult truths or situations in life. Changing language or environments to be inclusive and thus accommodating and agreeable.

We can see this pattern in various forms as it becomes more mainstream. For example parenting has become less authoritarian and we have phenomena such as cottonwool kids who have been protected from all of lifes harsh realities. This general idea that we must protect kids and make them always feel comfortable and safe. Or in education where its now more about sharing and caring and self paced learning which is more suitable to females. Less competition, and physical activities and everyones a winner ect.

This is the feminisation of the insitutions and society that has been developing for years. But post 2000 and social media may have compounded this. But Woke more or less exploded onto the scene.

But it didn't really. The patterns of thinking which are fundementally more feminine than masculline were already being cultivated by the continued development of feminine patterns of thinking through the institutions. Woke and all that is the modern manifestation of feminine patterns of thinking. No longer just about women but culturally about everything and everyone to do with how we order society.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi Phil, I forgot about this thread and am surprised its still open lol. But not actually going. But it seems my imquistiove mind has led me back from unrelated investigations. Or rather I was not thinking of feminism but rather the current political situation and violence.

But it seems this kind of investigation will bring up the cultural development of society and we then look into the history of politics, philosophical worldviews ect to try and understand whats going on.

Thus this brought me to what I think is one of the best commentaries or explanations if you like on how feminism relates in todays society.

Not 1st or 2nd wave feminism which was really a genuine movement responding to the injustices of gender inequality. Or even 3rd wave which fundementally wanted to apply the same principle to other groups.

But what feminist patterns of thinking has developed into in relation to how this is now spread to the same patterns of thinking across insitutions and generally in society such as reflecting social norms.

It was ever only meant to rebalance things. But has become another imbalance just like over mascullinisation. An over correction which is now being seen in the ideological thinking pattersn in ideas such as Woke and cancel culture.

I won't elaborate much more as this is my take. But it seems what this academic (Helen Andrews) is saying is being supported by the data and fits or explains very well what is currently happening that we could wonder how we missed it as a possible explanation.

Oh also disregard the title it is nothing like that. Its an academic explanation I think that makes good sense in explaing things.



P.S. Since you saw fit to attempt to reinvigorate what should be a dead thread by now, and since you keep pummeling us with 'new info' that you think just has to resolve the 'patriarchy' issue, I'm going to inject my own info from Elizabeth of the Biblical Bookworm podcast, here for YOUR consideration. Maybe meld some of what Elizabeth has to say about the value of women from a more biblical (or even Catholic) perspective into what it is you think you're gleaning from your own limited sources:

Why are most Christians... women?!​



Yes, she's Catholic ...
 
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stevevw

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.... modern wokeness is a 21st century permutation of a confluence of social responses going back to the late Enlightenment and then catalyzed further by Marx and other similar Socialists and Anarchists. Whatever "feminization" is permeating today's culture, it is a lack of solid analysis to think that human emotions are the main culprit manifesting in today's Zeitgeist. To assert as such is a mistaken conflation.

While these socially minded articles you've chosen offer is an interesting spin, but it's only one thin nuance of the ongoing problem, not the whole ball of yarn.

Try studying Patriarchy as a 5,000+ year phenomenon rather than as a knee-jerk reaction to anything and everything that folks on the Left just happen to sporadically spit out. Just because woke is broke doesn't mean that women (or non-white ethnic groups) haven't been unjustly pushed to the side. It also doesn't mean that all we see going on today is a result of women gaining control of this or that area of society or of corporate structures. For you to all too firmly assume that this is the case is a cop-out and your reliance on a handful of articles is a form of superficial analysis that reeks of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Moreover, and biblically speaking, the Jewish framework of the Biblical worldview holds BOTH human emotions and human intelligence in unison as God given capacities. Trying to tear one away from the other, or grossly prioritizing one over the other, actually de-humanizes what the Lord has created.
OK fair enough. I will be back in another 6 months lol. Not really lol. Yes all this is true. BUt its an interesting theory I guess you could call it. Like all ideas they need to be researched and the more data the better.

Its probably a bit early. But like all cultural phenomena we can get a better understanding when we move away from them and can see this from outside looking in. Like other movements such as Marxism or capitalism. Over time we can determine certain patterns associated that are contributing.

Not the only factor but perhaps a contributing factor along with other phenomena that may compound or add to modes of thinking and belief. Like how social media can compound division that may have already been brewing by creating a place where people can hide behind a machine and tear down others.
 
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stevevw

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P.S. Since you saw fit to attempt to reinvigorate what should be a dead thread by now, and since you keep pummeling us with 'new info' that you think just has to resolve the 'patriarchy' issue, I'm going to inject my own info from Elizabeth of the Biblical Bookworm podcast, here for YOUR consideration. Maybe meld some of what Elizabeth has to say about the value of women from a more biblical (or even Catholic) perspective into what it is you think you're gleaning from your own limited sources:

Why are most Christians... women?!​


OK thanks. I never linked the article to solve the patriarchy issue lol. It was more a opinion on feminist thinking and how this has influenced society. Like say how conservatism or communism may have influenced societies.

Anyway I will check out the video. And yes being open to all opinions is good.
 
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The rational is that basically the natural differences and traits on average are different for men and women. Men are more agressive, competitive and thrive on conflict. Whereas women seek to avoid conflict, are more agreeable and are more emotional and social. They want to nurture and avoid the harsh aspects of life and protect and sooth people from this.
I really do not see this if we look at Jesus Christ and the Incarnation. I am sure you regard Jesus as an acceptable example of a man as God would know He intended men to be, because He is God. Your description of men here is " aggressive, competitive and thrive on conflict", and I am at a loss as to how these characteristics are shown to us in the recorded biographies of the Lord, the Gospels.

Then there is indeed Mary, who had to manage first telling people that she was to become an unwed mother, and trust that someone, especially Joseph would believe that her child was God's, then she dealt with giving birth in a cave, or a shed, or at least an overcrowded room packed with non-domestic animals. Even when He died, there is a woman having to tell everyone that Jesus' body is missing....and the one who turns up to be soothing, is not another woman, but Jesus Himself.
 
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stevevw

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P.S. Since you saw fit to attempt to reinvigorate what should be a dead thread by now, and since you keep pummeling us with 'new info' that you think just has to resolve the 'patriarchy' issue, I'm going to inject my own info from Elizabeth of the Biblical Bookworm podcast, here for YOUR consideration. Maybe meld some of what Elizabeth has to say about the value of women from a more biblical (or even Catholic) perspective into what it is you think you're gleaning from your own limited sources:

Why are most Christians... women?!​



Yes, she's Catholic ...
Just had a look and it seems to be mostly about what the bible and Christianity says about women re their roles in society. How the bible can be distorted to promote unhealthy and imbalanced relations based on gender.

I understand the title "does God want us to live in a patriarchal society" is about the bible. But the idea of patriarchy at least in todays understanding is a feminist concept.

So I find it hard to look at the bible without including the underlying ideas and thinking behind the modern personification of what a male dominated patruarchy is. Its already saturated in feminist thinking in framing the issue ie in the past in whatever cultural context the idea of patriarchy was not even a thing or meant what it means today.

So the lens is already skewed before in how we understand the whole issue that I am not sure we should even be using the meaning of patriarchy or rather the baggage of what patriarchy represents today.

The whole idea of comparing different churches such as protestant verses Catholic or Islam ect is just another version of the same lens as lens that created the meaning of patriarchy. Its just another version of identity politics. Of arguing one group has the truth the bible or Christianity.

After spending a lot of time on arguing all these specific examples and never really coming to any agreement. I think a more overall view and understanding is required. Because you can always find an example that may align or seem right on both sides.

Therefore I think stepping away from the internal disagreements of deniminations or identity groups and looking at the independent evidence such as in the behavioural sciences. But also from the data on social and cultural phenomena and lived reality.

In this way we can also understand the underlying factors that may be an influence in why people think or believe a certain way. Rather than everything hinges on the interpretation of a single verse out of context not just within the bible but beyond it.
 
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And the Orthodox churches are not free of the abuse of women, or sexism, or misogyny (no group is).

We are free of such abuse on an institutional level.

Upholding the Theotokos doesn't necessarily entail an attitude free of sexism or misogyny; indeed, ideas about the mother of our Lord have often been used in ways which further the subjugation of women. (There's a helpful book on that called Alone of All Her Sex - not a new work, I read it a long time ago

On the contrary, if someone is misogynistic, they are not venerating the Theotokos in an Orthodox manner. I can’t speak for problems that may have happened in the Roman Catholic Church, and I also don’t care, since we venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and on that basis the Orthodox oppose the subjugation of women, which is why many of our parishes are actually managed by women in terms of their day to day operations, and why the most important person in the worship, the cantor, is often female (the presbyters and episcopi being male is not sexist nor a subjugation of women, since it exists with the consent of the women of the Orthodox Church, who represent a majority of our members and a majority of those present at the worship services).
 
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I really do not see this if we look at Jesus Christ and the Incarnation. I am sure you regard Jesus as an acceptable example of a man as God would know He intended men to be, because He is God. Your description of men here is " aggressive, competitive and thrive on conflict", and I am at a loss as to how these characteristics are shown to us in the recorded biographies of the Lord, the Gospels.
I think placing everything into a verse or a particular characteristic or trait people percieve in Christ is not necessarily the same for everyone. Thats the point I think. That in looking at the bible we forget our humanness and reality itself. That in some ways making it about the different denominations all fighting as to who holds the truth on this. Is itself the same ideology that has caused the problems.

What I am talking about primarily has nothing to do with the bible and Christ. Its just human science. Like the archeological and cultural fact that Christ walked the earth. We can prove this with science. So we can with human behaviour and the bible or God does not exclude this reality.

So when the sciences can know that there are on average as a society that there are certain traits or inclinations between men and women or that certain modes of thinking influence peoples beliefs. This is a fact and lived reality. Despite ideas to the contrary that may want to deny this. It is usually born out in reality in the end. But studies also repeatedly show these differences.

Then also like gender there can be individual differences in personality which may cause one person to be more competitive or assertive ect. They may tend to end up as leaders or entrepreneurs ect. And of course there is family environment which has an influence.

All these aspects are real and God uses them.

When I say agression I don't just mean controlling or abusive agression. I mean as a basic trait, an inclination towards a more tense or ready for action disposition. Perhaps an evolutionary or even cultural reality of life where there are threats in various forms and ultimately physical in nature that males are designed or inclined for such generally.

We can find exceptions but we are talking at the level of humans and the two genders as they are in nature. Which is more primal and basic. But still a drive and trait. Its these general trait differences that also play a role in how we see men and women and roles and how we order society.

I mean I just explained how feminism rose as a reaction to too much mascullinity. We know there is such a thing as masculline and feminine and as a society we behave in such ways by the fact that we have gender wars. So its not a complete made up phenomena and there is a real natural basis.
Then there is indeed Mary, who had to manage first telling people that she was to become an enwed mother, and trust that someone, especially Joseph would believe that her child was God's, then she dealt with giving birth in a cave, or a shed, or at least an overcrowded room packed with non-domestic animals. Even when He died, there is a woman having to tell everyone that Jesus' body is missing....and the one who turns up to be soothing, is not another woman, but Jesus Himself.
Yes these are examples of how men and women are the same in Christ. No one is disputing that. But I think the use of examples is itself part of trying to still adhere to an ideology that sees the world in terms of gender or identity. People could go on forever giving examples and counter examples and when examples that don't fit are reveals this is just rationalised away by the same thinking.

So I think some detachment from this mode of thinking altogether. Or at least compliment this with other modes of seeing this situation. Such as the behavioural sciences, and social and cultural and overviews about how ideology works and how societies can be influenced by political ideologies and how this develops ect.

This will give more perspective to the bible and ourselves as related to the bible and God and especially how our humanness is related to Christ.
 
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Is that for God’s will or against it ?
The world social society is pernicious - death dealing.

For a few, to a few, God gave/gives instructions on how to live, to obey Him and keep His commandments and instructions for living right with Him.

Society ignores and rejects Him.
 
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Just had a look and it seems to be mostly about what the bible and Christianity says about women re their roles in society. How the bible can be distorted to promote unhealthy and imbalanced relations based on gender.
You didn't actually listen to what she said. I can tell because you skirted by two substantive sources (both women) whom Elizabeth cited.
I understand the title "does God want us to live in a patriarchal society" is about the bible. But the idea of patriarchy at least in todays understanding is a feminist concept.
Unjust male dominance is what it is, by any name or label we want to attach to it, and this is the case no matter who it is that is doing the labeling.


So I find it hard to look at the bible without including the underlying ideas and thinking behind the modern personification of what a male dominated patruarchy is. Its already saturated in feminist thinking in framing the issue ie in the past in whatever cultural context the idea of patriarchy was not even a thing or meant what it means today.

In fact, the precursor theology for what I'm saying should be evident to anyone who reads about the Family of Cain in the book of Genesis, with Lamech being a prime example of how things ought not to be between men and women but have so often been in human history .... with King Solomon being yet another clear example.

So the lens is already skewed before in how we understand the whole issue that I am not sure we should even be using the meaning of patriarchy or rather the baggage of what patriarchy represents today.
Perhaps, but no one here is saying we must use Critical Theory and/or Woke-ism to provide a lens. Instead, we can use Critical Realism as a mode for our ventures into the underlying social studies needed.
The whole idea of comparing different churches such as protestant verses Catholic or Islam ect is just another version of the same lens as lens that created the meaning of patriarchy. Its just another version of identity politics. Of arguing one group has the truth the bible or Christianity.
I don't even understand what this has to do with anything being talked about between us this morning.
After spending a lot of time on arguing all these specific examples and never really coming to any agreement. I think a more overall view and understanding is required. Because you can always find an example that may align or seem right on both sides.
There's no agreement because folks like you put principle before practice. I reverse this order, with praxis coming first, and I thereby arrive at principle.
Therefore I think stepping away from the internal disagreements of deniminations or identity groups and looking at the independent evidence such as in the behavioural sciences. But also from the data on social and cultural phenomena and lived reality.
If you think this is the case, then start doing so. Maybe take the time to retrace what your professors taught you in college about proper methodology in social and historical studies.
In this way we can also understand the underlying factors that may be an influence in why people think or believe a certain way. Rather than everything hinges on the interpretation of a single verse out of context not just within the bible but beyond it.

The main problem in most of today's cultural conflict is the mainstreaming of anti-Christian unbelief. It's not due to feminine emotions (which, biblically speaking, God created), nor is it due to the advocacy for social justice (which, biblically speaking, God demands).
 
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Tigran1245

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The answer depends on what the word "patriarchy" means. If we're talking about the headship of a husband over a wife in the family, or the headship of men in the spiritual hierarchy of the priesthood, then yes, God clearly desires absolute patriarchy. But not a servile patriarchy, where one is humiliated, but a patriarchy of love: analogous to how we submit to God. “The head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Kor 11:3)

If we're talking about state power or public activity, there's no difference between men and women.
 
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Tigran1245

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And the Orthodox churches are not free of the abuse of women, or sexism, or misogyny (no group is).
This is present in Orthodoxy not because of the Orthodox teaching on patriarchy, but for other reasons: both cultural and accidental.

For example, in Russia we had a scandal at the Sredneuralsk (Middle-Ural) monastery several years ago. Schema-Abbot Sergius, the monastery's leader, transformed it into a veritable sect. Sergius's attitude toward women in the monastery was marked by harshness and despotism. According to former residents, he imposed strict control over their behavior, restricted their communication with the outside world, subjected them to psychological pressure and humiliation, demanding unconditional submission to his authority. His instructions were accompanied by intimidation, threats of "curses" and punishments, and his spiritual guidance devolved into violence and manipulation, creating an atmosphere of fear and dependence within the women's monastery. Ultimately, he arbitrarily seized the monastery, expelled the legitimate leadership, blocked access for church and government representatives, created a personality cult around himself, preached extremist ideas, and called for disobedience to the authorities. The court subsequently found him guilty of inciting minors to suicide, violating the right to freedom of conscience, and spreading fake news about the coronavirus, sentencing him to a lengthy prison term.

This is a classic example of sexism and despotism. But it's not at all due to Orthodox teaching on patriarchy. In this particular case:

1) The Church leadership failed to respond to the situation at the monastery for many years. Although there were a lot of complaints and appeals to the church leadership.

2) Sergius had no canonical right to be ordained a priest, as even before his ordination, he had been imprisoned for murder. The fact that he became a priest, founded a monastery and began to lead it is already contrary to Orthodoxy.
 
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RDKirk

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The answer depends on what the word "patriarchy" means. If we're talking about the headship of a husband over a wife in the family, or the headship of men in the spiritual hierarchy of the priesthood, then yes, God clearly desires absolute patriarchy. But not a servile patriarchy, where one is humiliated, but a patriarchy of love: analogous to how we submit to God. “The head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Kor 11:3)
And that was a result of the Fall. That is disarmed in the Body of Christ.
If we're talking about state power or public activity, there's no difference between men and women.
For the Body of Christ, it's only because of state power that we might be obligated to put up a facade of respecting sexual and cultural differences.
 
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RamiC

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2) Sergius had no canonical right to be ordained a priest, as even before his ordination, he had been imprisoned for murder. The fact that he became a priest, founded a monastery and began to lead it is already contrary to Orthodoxy.
Is there a way to check on people for a history of violent crime in Russia? Should somebody have done that?
 
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RamiC

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I think placing everything into a verse or a particular characteristic or trait people percieve in Christ is not necessarily the same for everyone. Thats the point I think. That in looking at the bible we forget our humanness and reality itself.
I believe the Bible is the best universally applicable guide to reality, and that is the case on account of the wisdom therein regarding humanity. So no, humanness and reality are not forgotten when trusting the Bible.


What I am talking about primarily has nothing to do with the bible and Christ.
You are in a thread called "Does God want us to live in a Patriarchal society?" This is in a Christians only part of CF.
 
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