The Reality of Free Will

Did God create his intelligent children with free will?
Though many whether religious or non religious claim not, and argue against this, the answer is clearly yes.

What is the proof?
There are a number of scriptures, but let's start with John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

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Starting with God's heavenly children - the spirit creation, called angels, the Bible says of the one called Devil and Satan... When he lies, he speaks out of his own character. That is... pertaining to self, or of his own.
The disciple James uses this term in this way...

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire

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James 1:14

Jesus thus makes clear that the angel that became Satan the Devil, acts according to his own will, or desire.
Jesus further states in the same verse, John 8:44... "your will is to do your father’s desires".
Humans too, have their own will, which is in opposition to the father.

Can sin be blamed for the will of intelligent creatures?
Jesus said, the one called Devil and Satan, "was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him".
So, no, this was a deliberate opposing of the truth. Hence, the name Satan.

It's also important to note that this angel .... in fact all of the angels... none are born in sin and shaped in iniquity.
So, sin cannot be claimed as a hinderance to free will. Nor can it be claimed that they have to give in to wrong desires.
The angels make their own decisions to do what the want. Genesis 6:2
Proof that the angels - God's heavenly children, do have free will.

Regarding humans, the same apply.
In saying that their will is to do Satan's desire, what was Jesus pointing out? They were acting on their own will. Not anyone else's.
That humans have free will is made clear in other scriptures.

1 Timothy 2:14

Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

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The Bible says Adam was not deceived.
Thus Adam acted on his own free will.
The verse says, Eve became a sinner, only after acting on her desire.
Adam and Eve were free willed agents... not driven by sin, but making free willed decisions.
Proof that humans... God's earthly children were created with free will.

Did sin somehow cancel out free will.
In the imagination of many, that is the case.
However, the Bible does not say that after sin came into the world through one man, that free will became obsolete.
Rather, the scriptures refer to man's free will, repeatedly.
Leviticus 1:3; 1 Corinthians 9:16-18 Deuteronomy 30:19; 2 Corinthians 9:7; Philemon 1:14

The Greek word hekousios - meaning free will, is the neuter of a derivative from hekon; voluntariness -- willingly, which is (an adjective, a primitive term) – properly, willing; "unforced, of one's own will, voluntary" (J. Thayer), i.e. acting on one's own accord. The root (hek-) emphasizes intentional, deliberate action (choice), i.e. "of free-will" (J. Thayer).

Clare73 said:

There is no "free will" of man in Scripture. Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34).

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Adam was not a man? What was he?
Where does the Bible say Adam and his offspring lost free will?

Clare73 said:

Slaves are not free.

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According to the Bible, that statement is not true. Galatians 5:1, 13

Are you saying Christ did not set us free, or are you saying we are not slaves of God and Christ... and one another?

Clare73 said:

Free will is the power to make all moral choices.

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Although you haven't provided a reference to support that claim, I'll like to point out that man does have the ability to make all moral choices given to him by his law giver. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20
However, free will is defined as...
the ability to act on one's own accord; unforced, of one's own will, voluntary; willing deliberate action (choice);
The philosophical definition is varied, as well as extreme in some cases.

Are you defining free will from the philosopher's point of view, or are you looking at the Biblical perspective?
If the former, the OP, is focused on the scriptures, which shows...

1. God created angels with free will
2. God created humans with free will

Are you contending the latter?

Clare73 said:

Can you choose to live completely sin-free?

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Free will does not mean having the ability to fly, walk through walls, change from human to deity, or remove sin.
These pertain to abilities that do not involve making moral decisions.

In fact, yes, we can make moral decisions, despite being sinners.
For example, Enoch is said to have "pleased God", because he chose to walk with God. Hebrews 11:5
Other too, chose to do what is right, in the face of death.


This is what free will involves.
It's not whether we are sinful, sinless, or black or white.
Your argument seem to be saying Adam and Eve had free will, but their offspring do not.
How would you arrive at such a conclusion without saying that free will ended with sin, and then redefining free will to involve a weak state?

Weakness does not destroy God given free will.
How is that possible?

Clare73 said:

You cannot.
Then your will is not completely free.
You have limited free will, ability to make some moral choices, but not all.

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Please name one moral choice that I cannot freely make.

Clare73 said:

See post #2.

(Are slaves to sin, Jn 8:34, free?)

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I saw post #2.
It says that free will cannot exist with sin, which post #3 shows scripturally, is false, since morality has nothing to do with the state in which the human race finds themselves.
Morality is... Actually, let me quote it for you.
Morality (from Latin moralitas 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the categorization of intentions, decisions and actions into those that are proper, or right, and those that are improper, or wrong

Those making moral choices are all mankind, both yesterday, and today - past and present, who Do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD. Deuteronomy 6:18
Since God said that countless men and women do what is right, and pleases him, that proves

• man does have the ability to make all moral choices given to him by his law giver. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20
• man can make moral decisions, despite being sinners.
• man's weakness does not destroy God given free will.

So, your argument has been demolished, Clare, and if you have no other argument, please do not repeat yourself.
There is something you can do, though.

Clare73 said:

You have limited free will, ability to make some moral choices, but not all.

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Please name one moral choice that I cannot freely make.
It's a request in response to a claim, which does require an answer. Can you answer.

Clare73 said:

Can you choose to be sinless, to never sin?
If you can, why have you not done so?

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You asked that question in post #2.
It was answered in post #3.
The honest thing to do is respond to post #3, and the courteous thing to do is respond to and address what people say to you.
It's actually what is called conversation.

Clare73 said:

Not quite. . .it says Jn 8:34.

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Okay thanks.
I hope you come to understand that doesn't say what you claim.
I think you like quoting Paul. Hopefully he can help you with this one.
Romans 6:6, 16, 17

Not all are slaves to sin, but if you are, then I hope that changes quite soon.

Clare73 said:

And nowhere does the Bible say man has "free will."

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You did refuse to respond, so perhaps you also refused to read the OP, and the references.
Are you claiming that angels or men were not created with free will?

May I remind you of your statement...
God's free will to Adam does not make God the author of Adam's sin.

Evidence says Clare... You are clutching at straws.
Being a slave to sin involves letting pride rule our heart.

Clare73 said:

To be sinless. . .never to sin.

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That's like saying to be immortal... never to die.
These are states we cannot change. Not moral choices, or decisions.

concretecamper said:

To be fair, I think she doesn't have a grip on exactly what Free Will is. Using the terms like COMPLETELY and NEVER, and SIN FREE displays it.

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I would not consider that fair to her, since in my conversations with Clare, anything that is shown as clear proof, gets treated that way... with partial acceptance, and partial non-acceptance.

concretecamper said:

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt.

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That's kind of you.

Clare73 said:

Free will is the power to make all moral choices.

You do not have the moral power to choose to be sinless; therefore, your will is not totally free, it is only partially free.

Adam had free will, he had the moral power to make all moral choices, including the choice to be sinless.

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There isn't any scripture in the Bible that says this.
To be sinless or not is not a moral choice, just as to be born with or without a defect is not a moral choice. It's not even a choice.
You do not have the power to define free will as something you yourself made up and is found in no dictionary - Biblical or otherwise.
No philosopher argues that one must be able to choose to be sinless. So, this must be a new philosophy... Clare's.