Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?

Colo Millz said:

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), Ro 1:20.

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Paul here is talking about some that knew God. These are without excuse.

“For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Colo Millz said:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), Ps 53:1.

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You obviously misunderstood my post. I am not arguing that the fool can come to God by himself. No one can come to God on their own. But the verse that you posted was out of context so I posted the context.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Colo Millz said:

Coming to Jesus Christ is different from reasoning to the existence of God.

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If any unbeliever reasons the existence of God then he/she would become a believer because God has softened their heart. Unbelievers typically reason the non existence of God.

Colo Millz said:

St. Paul writes to the Hebrews (11:6): “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him”. It is asked by many: “Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?” He certainly can. For the 18th Psalm says: “The heavens show forth the glory of God”; and St. Paul writes to the Romans (1:20): “The invisible things of Him (of God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also and Divinity”. Hence the Vatican Council, in 1870, defined that it is possible for the existence of God, the Beginning and the End of all things, to be gathered with certainty from created things, by the aid of the natural light of human reason (Sess. III, Ch. 2).

Charles Coppens, A Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion, Nineteenth, Twentieth and Twenty-First Editions (St. Louis, MO; London: B. Herder Book Company, 1917), 117.

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The problem is that there is no way to find out. There is no such thing as a fallen human being in a world with no God at all.

We can say from Romans 1 that because God exists even pagans and atheists can know that there is a God. But we cannot say "Yes but if God did not exist they would still know" or "if God ceased to exist they would know" or ...

Colo Millz said:

Coming to Jesus Christ is different from reasoning to the existence of God.

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Romans 1 makes it clear that God has established conditions such that we can reason and deduce that God exists.

The part that it less clear is what we would know in the case that God did not exist or that God tried to hide the fact that He exists.

Colo Millz said:

St. Paul writes to the Hebrews (11:6): “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him”. It is asked by many: “Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?” He certainly can. For the 18th Psalm says: “The heavens show forth the glory of God”; and St. Paul writes to the Romans (1:20): “The invisible things of Him (of God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also and Divinity”. Hence the Vatican Council, in 1870, defined that it is possible for the existence of God, the Beginning and the End of all things, to be gathered with certainty from created things, by the aid of the natural light of human reason (Sess. III, Ch. 2).

Charles Coppens, A Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion, Nineteenth, Twentieth and Twenty-First Editions (St. Louis, MO; London: B. Herder Book Company, 1917), 117.

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Akanakten believe in one God and it could have been the one true God. The priests hated him for it.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.


23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Some people opine that the altar to the Unknown God was the effort of the Greeks to shotgun worship in all directions, just to make sure they didn't miss any gods.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


25 Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;


26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. -- Acts 17

Among Greek philosophers, especially by Paul’s day, there was a distinct that pointed toward a singular, ultimate divinity, one not identified with any of the anthropomorphic Olympians. They arrived at this concept through study of the order and predictability of celestial movements and events...just as Psalm 19 says is possible.

Key strands of this idea include:

Plato’s “Form of the Good” in the Republic, the ultimate cause of all being and order, transcending even the gods of myth.

Aristotle’s “Unmoved Mover” in the Metaphysics, a perfect, eternal intellect responsible for the order of celestial motion.

Stoicism’s “Logos," a rational divine principle immanent in nature, giving coherence and structure to all things.

Epimenides of Crete, whom Paul actually quotes in Acts 17:28 (“In him we live and move and have our being”), had written of a God who could not be represented by idols and who was beyond all names.

By the 1st century AD, educated Athenians were well aware of this philosophical “Unknown God," a transcendent, rational, universal deity responsible for the order and predictability of the cosmos.

So when Paul says,

“Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you,”

Paul is making a rhetorical move. He is identifying the Abrahamic God with this unnamed divine principle that Greek philosophers already suspected existed. He’s effectively saying: “That ultimate mind, the one beyond Zeus and the others--the one you can sense but not name--that’s the God I’m telling you about.”

However, it must also be said that realizing God exists and acknowledging Him as one's Lord are two different propositions, which is why in Romans 1 Paul can rail against those who realize God exists but refuse to acknowledge Him. Their knowledge condemns them.

I also think that Job knew of God's existence through observation of creation, not through direct revelation or scripture or oral tales.

God relates to Job solely though the examples of His authority and power as shown by creation.

Colo Millz said:

St. Paul writes to the Hebrews (11:6): “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him”. It is asked by many: “Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?” He certainly can. For the 18th Psalm says: “The heavens show forth the glory of God”; and St. Paul writes to the Romans (1:20): “The invisible things of Him (of God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also and Divinity”. Hence the Vatican Council, in 1870, defined that it is possible for the existence of God, the Beginning and the End of all things, to be gathered with certainty from created things, by the aid of the natural light of human reason (Sess. III, Ch. 2).

Charles Coppens, A Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion, Nineteenth, Twentieth and Twenty-First Editions (St. Louis, MO; London: B. Herder Book Company, 1917), 117.

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Perhaps. Perhaps not. To some degree, how we interpret what we think we see in the world around us depends on the epistemological position (or paradigm) we inhabit.

Colo Millz said:

St. Paul writes to the Hebrews (11:6): “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him”. It is asked by many: “Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?” He certainly can. For the 18th Psalm says: “The heavens show forth the glory of God”; and St. Paul writes to the Romans (1:20): “The invisible things of Him (of God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also and Divinity”. Hence the Vatican Council, in 1870, defined that it is possible for the existence of God, the Beginning and the End of all things, to be gathered with certainty from created things, by the aid of the natural light of human reason (Sess. III, Ch. 2).

Charles Coppens, A Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion, Nineteenth, Twentieth and Twenty-First Editions (St. Louis, MO; London: B. Herder Book Company, 1917), 117.

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"There is a source of the energy that formed all things" <-- This is an axiom without imagery that anyone can reason upon.

The term "Faith" would add imagery by implying trustworthiness.

Hentenza said:

If any unbeliever reasons the existence of God then he/she would become a believer because God has softened their heart. Unbelievers typically reason the non existence of God.

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They just not need to be a fool.

Colo Millz said:

St. Paul writes to the Hebrews (11:6): “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him”. It is asked by many: “Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?” He certainly can. For the 18th Psalm says: “The heavens show forth the glory of God”; and St. Paul writes to the Romans (1:20): “The invisible things of Him (of God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also and Divinity”. Hence the Vatican Council, in 1870, defined that it is possible for the existence of God, the Beginning and the End of all things, to be gathered with certainty from created things, by the aid of the natural light of human reason (Sess. III, Ch. 2).

Charles Coppens, A Systematic Study of the Catholic Religion, Nineteenth, Twentieth and Twenty-First Editions (St. Louis, MO; London: B. Herder Book Company, 1917), 117.

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Everyone knows God exists because God has shown Himself to them. They suppress the truth, are not thankful, they do not glorify Him as God, and they don't want anyone to be educated about God. They know God's righteous judgement that those who practice evil deeds deserve death, but they do them and promote them anyway.