Priest explains why there is no hell

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Oct 5, 2025

Clare73 said:
That is precisely what I said:

"His body dies, (i.e., returns to dust), while his spirit is immortal (2 Co 5:1-8), and for the believer, his spirit is at home with the Lord (heaven) at the body's death, until the resurrection when man's spirit will be reunited with its body again."

I understand, because of your theological position, your interpretation. But I don’t think it is consistent within the context of Ecclesiastes. I’ll just post the entire chapter, but I see nothing that indicates King Solomon is speaking to his son about anything more than man/mankind in general.

Probably best to move on from this side discussion as it is probably worthy of its own thread, and indeed most certainly already has been discussed in former threads. Please feel free to close out our discussion, just as I have, with any concluding comments you feel relevant to our brief but interesting conversation.

”Remember also your Creator in days of your youth, || While that the evil days do not come, || Nor the years have arrived, that you say, || “I have no pleasure in them.” While that the sun is not darkened, and the light, || And the moon, and the stars, || And the thick clouds returned after the rain. In the day that keepers of the house tremble, || And men of strength have bowed themselves, || And grinders have ceased, because they have become few. And those looking out at the windows have become dim, And doors have been shut in the street. When the noise of the grinding is low, || And [one] rises at the voice of the bird, || And all daughters of song are bowed down. Also of that which is high they are afraid, || And of the low places in the way, || And the almond-tree is despised, || And the grasshopper has become a burden, || And want is increased, || For man is going to his perpetual home, || And the mourners have gone around through the street. While that the silver cord is not removed, || And the golden bowl broken, || And the pitcher broken by the fountain, || And the wheel broken at the well. And the dust returns to the earth as it was, || And the spirit returns to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the preacher, the whole [is] vanity. And further, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge, and gave ear, and sought out—he made right many allegories. The preacher sought to find out pleasing words, and [that] written [by] the upright—words of truth. Words of the wise [are] as the goads, and as nails planted [by] the masters of collections, they have been given by one Shepherd. And further, from these, my son, be warned; the making of many scrolls has no end, and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. The end of the whole matter let us hear: “Fear God, and keep His commands, for this [is] the whole of man. For every work God brings into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether good or bad.”“
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭LSV‬‬

Clare73 · Oct 5, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I understand, because of your theological position, your interpretation. But I don’t think it is consistent within the context of Ecclesiastes. I’ll just post the entire chapter, but I see nothing that indicates King Solomon is speaking to his son about anything more than man/mankind in general.
Probably best to move on from this side discussion as it is probably worthy of its own thread, and indeed most certainly already has been discussed in former threads. Please feel free to close out our discussion, just as I have, with any concluding comments you feel relevant to our brief but interesting conversation.
”Remember also your Creator in days of your youth, || While that the evil days do not come, || Nor the years have arrived, that you say, || “I have no pleasure in them.” While that the sun is not darkened, and the light, || And the moon, and the stars, || And the thick clouds returned after the rain. In the day that keepers of the house tremble, || And men of strength have bowed themselves, || And grinders have ceased, because they have become few. And those looking out at the windows have become dim, And doors have been shut in the street. When the noise of the grinding is low, || And [one] rises at the voice of the bird, || And all daughters of song are bowed down. Also of that which is high they are afraid, || And of the low places in the way, || And the almond-tree is despised, || And the grasshopper has become a burden, || And want is increased, || For man is going to his perpetual home, || And the mourners have gone around through the street. While that the silver cord is not removed, || And the golden bowl broken, || And the pitcher broken by the fountain, || And the wheel broken at the well. And the dust returns to the earth as it was, || And the spirit returns to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the preacher, the whole [is] vanity. And further, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge, and gave ear, and sought out—he made right many allegories. The preacher sought to find out pleasing words, and [that] written [by] the upright—words of truth. Words of the wise [are] as the goads, and as nails planted [by] the masters of collections, they have been given by one Shepherd. And further, from these, my son, be warned; the making of many scrolls has no end, and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. The end of the whole matter let us hear: “Fear God, and keep His commands, for this [is] the whole of man. For every work God brings into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether good or bad.”“
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭LSV‬‬

The OT must be understood in the light of the new revelation in the NT.

timothyu · Oct 5, 2025

Clare73 said:
The OT must be understood in the light of the new revelation in the NT.

How so?

Clare73 · Monday at 12:34 PM

timothyu said:
How so?

Well, for starters, in the light of the NT, the NT kingdom is invisible, and within (Lk 17:20-21), and not a physical material kingdom.

timothyu · Monday at 1:28 PM

Clare73 said:
Well, for starters, the NT kingdom is invisible, and within (Lk 17:20-21), and not a physical material kingdom.

Yes the will of God is known, but within those who follow but not yet the way of all life. The material Kingdom is not yet come.

eleos1954 · Tuesday at 11:44 AM

Clare73 said:
Man's spirit is immortal, and is not subject to death, according to the word of God in 2 Co 5:8.

If there is anything "immortal" about us .... there is no reason for a resurrection.

Other passages further clarify without any equivocation when the great apostle expected to be with Christ.Romans 8:23At the redemption of the body1 Corinthians 5:5In the day of the Lord Jesus1 Corinthians 15:51-55At the last trumpColossians 3:4When Christ our life shall appear1 Thessalonians 4:16When the Lord descends with a shout2 Thessalonians 2:1At the coming of the Lord2 Timothy 4:7, 8At “that day” (by which Paul means the second advent of Christ)

The Breath of Life:
The spirit is described as the "breath of life" from God, using the Hebrew word ruach and the Greek word pneuma, which are often used interchangeably with "spirit".
Body, Soul, and Spirit:
The human being is seen as a unity of body, soul, and spirit. The body is physical, the soul is the entire living person, and the spirit is the life-giving breath that enables consciousness and connection with God.
Not a Separate Entity:
The spirit is not a conscious entity that survives death in a disembodied state. Instead, when a person dies, the breath or spirit returns to God, and the individual ceases to be a conscious being.
Humanity as a Living Soul:
Rather than having a soul that can exist apart from the body, humans are living souls, a combination of body and the spirit (breath of life).

You can't be both mortal and immortal at the same time.
The Bible teaches that while humans are born mortal, their bodies will be transformed into immortal bodies through resurrection, meaning they cannot be both at the same time in the future state of the resurrected. At the resurrection, the perishable will put on the imperishable and the mortal will put on immortality, eliminating the state of being mortal.

Clare73 · Tuesday at 12:28 PM

eleos1954 said:
If there is anything "immortal" about us .... there is no reason for a resurrection.

Our spirits are immortal. Resurrection is of our mortal bodies, not of our immortal spirits (which do not die).

eleos1954 · Friday at 1:03 PM

Clare73 said:
Man's spirit is immortal, and is not subject to death, according to the word of God in 2 Co 5:8.

salvation

deliverance or rescue from harm, sin, and death

Colossians 1:23:
"But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel that you heard".
1 John 2:24:
"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father".
2 Timothy 2:11-12:
"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us".
Hebrews 10:23:
"Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful".
John 15:6:
"Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a — and withers; such are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned".
Not so .... salvation is conditional;
2 Corinthians 5:8
- "absent from the body" is a state of not having a physical body, which is temporary until the resurrection.
- Context is key:
  The meaning is understood by reading the surrounding verses, which emphasize the temporary, perishable nature of the earthly body and the future resurrection of the dead in a new, incorruptible body.

Clare73 · 2025-10-11T09:48:52-0500

eleos1954 said:
salvation

deliverance or rescue from harm, and death

That is not deliverance from physical death, that is deliverance from spiritual death, which is not the death of the human spirit, but the absence of eternal life within the human spirit.

eleos1954 said:
Colossians 1:23:
"But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel that you heard".
1 John 2:24:
"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father".2 Timothy 2:11-12:
"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us".
Hebrews 10:23:
"Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful".
John 15:6:
"Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a — and withers; such are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned".

Not so .... salvation is conditional;

2 Corinthians 5:8

"absent from the body" is a state of not having a physical body, which is temporary until the resurrection.

Context is key:
The meaning is understood by reading the surrounding verses, which emphasize the temporary, perishable nature of the earthly body and the future resurrection of the dead in a new, incorruptible body.

eleos1954 · 2025-10-11T12:15:12-0500

Clare73 said:
Man's spirit is immortal, and is not subject to death, according to the word of God in 2 Co 5:8.

We are all subject to death .... the whole reason Jesus came was to save us from death. He overcame death for us. We don't receive eternal life until Jesus returns.

A future event:
The Bible teaches that death is a sleep until Jesus' return, at which time the faithful will be resurrected and receive immortality.
The resurrection of the dead:
Verses like 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describe a resurrection of the dead in Christ at the last trumpet.
The promise of eternal life:
The future gift of eternal life is promised to those who believe in Jesus,, immortal life is received at the resurrection and Christ's return.
Immortality is a gift:
The immortality that believers will receive is a gift from God, given to them when Jesus returns and they are given new, immortal bodies.
- The Bible teaches that "the spirit of man returns to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). This is not a conscious, independent spirit but rather the "breath of life" that returns to its source.
- Immortality is conditional:
  Immortality is not an innate quality of humans but a gift from God that is given through faith in Jesus Christ. This is something that will be given to the righteous at the resurrection, not at the moment of death.

eleos1954 · 2025-10-11T12:37:08-0500

Clare73 said:
That is not deliverance from physical death, that is deliverance from spiritual death, which is not the death of the human spirit, but the absence of eternal life within the human spirit.

The "spirit" that returns to God at death is the breath of life, not a conscious entity with independent existence. The Bible says, "the soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20).

The Bible does not say that man was given an immortal soul, it says just the opposite.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4 KJV

The confusion comes from the definition of exactly what a soul is. Here is the first mention of the word “soul” in the Bible.

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7 KJV

Notice that the man was not given a soul, rather he became a living soul. In this verse, the Hebrew word translated as soul is “nephesh.” That word applies to a creature that breathes. Even animals are souls as this verse shows.

“And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep” Numbers 31:28 KJV

According to that verse, humans, cattle, donkeys, and sheep are also souls. The Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. When a person or an animal dies they become a dead soul.

Consider this: If the soul was immortal, which means it cannot die, then what would be the purpose of the resurrection? If a person never dies, there is no need for a resurrection. However, the doctrine of the resurrection is clearly taught in the Bible. Here are Jesus’ words on the subject.

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” John 11:25 KJV

The resurrection is the hope that Christians have. In order to be resurrected, you must first be dead. Jesus likened death to sleep when he resurrected Lazarus to life who had been dead for four days.

“… Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleeps, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.” John 11:14 KJV

It is clear that death is the opposite of life. It is like being in a dreamless sleep until you are resurrected back to life. The passing of time would make no difference since the dead are unaware of anything as this verse points out.

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV

Clare73 · 2025-10-11T17:03:34-0500

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I‘m a bit confused … please clarify your “official doctrinal position” as it pertains to your statements in the highlighted portions above and below. I shouldn’t need to point out the inconsistencies of the bolded and underlined. Elaborate if you will please …

Man is spirit and body, both of which are subject to death.

Man is born spiritually dead (edit: without God's eternal life within his immortal spirit) and man eventually succumbs to physical death.

Scripture uses "spiritual" relating to two things about man, and that can be confusing:

1) spiritual death in relation to the human spirit is not death of one's spirit, but is the absence of (eternal) God's life within one's immortal human spirit.

2) the divine Holy Spirit, which indwells the born again, within his immortal human spirit, and where everything related to the Holy Spirit is "spiritual;" e.g., the new birth of the Holy Spirit is into God's eternal "spiritual" life.

Clare73 · 2025-10-11T17:06:18-0500

eleos1954 said:
The "spirit" that returns to God at death is the breath of life, not a conscious entity with independent existence.

Tell it to Paul in 2 Co 5:1-8.

eleos1954 · 2025-10-12T10:01:37-0500

Clare73 said:
Tell it to Paul in 2 Co 5:1-8.

Spirit as Life Force: The Hebrew term rûach and the Greek equivalent pneuma mean “wind, breath.” But the emphasis is on the dynamic nature of the wind, its movement, and power. When applied to humans, it describes individuals who function as a dynamic life force in bodily form. The spirit is the breath of life that God breathed into Adam (Gen. 2:7), the life force that characterizes a person. It is God who gave it to us (Isa. 42:5), and it is He who takes it back (Eccl. 12:7; Ps. 104:29; Acts 7:59).

Nowhere in the Scripture is the spirit defined as a self-conscious entity that preexisted the body or continues after death.

Genesis 2:7 states that Adam was formed from “the dust of the ground,” and was lifeless until God breathed into his nostrils the “breath of life”—not an immortal soul. Without breath, human beings will die.

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.

Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Bible does not explicitly state that humans possess an inherent "immortal soul," and verses like Ezekiel 18:4 state, "The soul who sins shall die". The concept of an immortal soul entered Christianity through Greek philosophy and isn't directly taught in the Hebrew texts where the word for soul (nephesh) means "living being". Instead, the Bible emphasizes God as the sole immortal being, with humans receiving immortality through faith in Jesus Christ and the promise of a resurrection.

Clare73 · 2025-10-12T12:18:37-0500

eleos1954 said:
Spirit as Life Force: The Hebrew term rûach and the Greek equivalent pneuma mean “wind, breath.” But the emphasis is on the dynamic nature of the wind, its movement, and power. When applied to humans, it describes individuals who function as a dynamic life force in bodily form. The spirit is the breath of life that God breathed into Adam (Gen. 2:7), the life force that characterizes a person. It is God who gave it to us (Isa. 42:5), and it is He who takes it back (Eccl. 12:7; Ps. 104:29; Acts 7:59).
Nowhere in the Scripture is the spirit defined as a self-conscious entity that preexisted the body or continues after death.

Genesis 2:7 states that Adam was formed from “the dust of the ground,” and was lifeless until God breathed into his nostrils the “breath of life”—not an immortal soul. Without breath, human beings will die.

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.

Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Bible does not explicitly state that humans possess an inherent "immortal soul," and verses like Ezekiel 18:4 state, "The soul who sins shall die". The concept of an immortal soul entered Christianity through Greek philosophy and isn't directly taught in the Hebrew texts where the word for soul (nephesh) means "living being". Instead, the Bible emphasizes God as the sole immortal being, with humans receiving immortality through faith in Jesus Christ and the promise of a resurrection.

The human soul is not the human spirit. . .the topic now is the human spirit.

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