A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

eleos1954 · Friday at 1:17 PM

Valletta said:
You were there? What sins do you accuse the mother of God of having committed?

According to the Word of God ...

Romans 3:23
New International Version

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

All in includes Mary

Romans 3:10-12
English Standard Version

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Luke 1:47, "And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,"( said by Mary)

Mary herself recognized she needed a Savior

Valletta · Friday at 3:07 PM

eleos1954 said:
According to the Word of God ...

Romans 3:23
New International Version
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

All in includes Mary

Romans 3:10-12
English Standard Version
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Luke 1:47, "And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,"( said by Mary)

Mary herself recognized she needed a Savior

Psalm 112 Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
who greatly delights in his commandments!
2 His descendants will be mighty in the land;
the generation of the upright will be blessed.
3 Wealth and riches are in his house;
and his righteousness endures for ever.
4 Light rises in the darkness for the upright;
the Lord[a] is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
5 It is well with the man who deals generously and lends,
who conducts his affairs with justice.
6 For the righteous will never be moved;
he will be remembered for ever.
7 He is not afraid of evil tidings;
his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
8 His heart is steady, he will not be afraid,
until he sees his desire on his adversaries.
9 He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures for ever;
his horn is exalted in honor.
10 The wicked man sees it and is angry;
he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
the desire of the wicked man comes to nought.
RSVCE

boughtwithaprice · Friday at 5:59 PM

eleos1954 said:
According to the Word of God ...

Romans 3:23
New International Version
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

All in includes Mary

Romans 3:10-12
English Standard Version
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Luke 1:47, "And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,"( said by Mary)

Mary herself recognized she needed a Savior

That still does not say she sinned. That is your inference from scripture and not scripture itself

As a creature, Mary is still dependent on the grace of God which she has in full measure.-
When you try to bring Mary down to our level, you do not insult us, you insult the grace of God and say not even the full measure is strong enough to keep us from sin.

You don’t realize it, but in doing so, you say sin is greater than God. He cannot save us from sin, He can only forgive us of sin, according to your reasoning. You just don’t realize how blasphemous that is. It sounds so good, but is so wrong at the same time. God is not impotent to save, He is mighty to save. He not only forgives sin, but cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

In Psalm 120 (Douay Rheims) we do not sing, God is powerless against my sin, He can only forgive not cleanse. No no a thousand times no! We sing

1 I have lifted up my eyes to the mountains, from whence help shall come to me. 2 My help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. 3 May he not suffer thy foot to be moved: neither let him slumber that keepeth thee. 4 Behold he shall neither slumber nor sleep, that keepeth Israel. 5 The Lord is thy keeper, the Lord is thy protection upon thy right hand.

6 The sun shall not burn thee by day: nor the moon by night. 7 The Lord keepeth thee from all evil: may the Lord keep thy soul. 8 May the Lord keep thy coming in and thy going out; from henceforth now and for ever.

To those that say God cannot save, He can only forgive, I can merely pray that God may have mercy on you. Do not harden your hearts. God does cleanse from sin and is mighty to save.

Do not listen to the false prophets of Jeremiah 8, who say “Peace, Peace when there is no peace. They say do not penance, God only forgives, He cannot cleanse. Do not fear sin, merely believe Jesus, your penance is pride” (paraphrased)

Do not listen to the grumbles of Israel who say the promised land is too fearful. There are giants in the land and we will be over run. Harken rather to Joshua and Caleb who say God is with us, we have nothing to fear

Jesus does not wink at sin. He sets us free from sin. He doesn’t just forgive us our sins and allow us to continue in them. That would be horrible. He promises to lead us free from sin, and we deny ourselves to take up our cross to follow Him.

John 8

31- Then Jesus said to those Jews, who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man: how sayest thou: you shall be free? 34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. 35 Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever; but the son abideth for ever.

36 If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. 37 I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father. 39 They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not.

eleos1954 · 2025-10-11T12:23:07-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
If we accept your argument, then since Jesus came from Mary, it can be argued that sinlessness came from sin, and the grace of God was powerless to overcome sin, so He had to use sin which is evil to achieve a good end.

So does God teach that the end justifies the means?

No!! That is complete blasphemy!

Your argument is absurd. The correct view is that Mary was and is sinless, but being a creature , she needs the grace of God to keep her that way, so she rightfully calls God her Savior

God does not need sin to overcome sin from which He wishes to save us. To say that He does, is to impugne the very character of God

Mary was born sinless by grace, much the same way as John the Baptist. Mary received the grace of sinlessness at conception, John received it in the womb when his mother heard the voice of Mary. Sin runs in fear at the presence of God, John lept for joy. His soul was cleansed by the Holy Spirt prior to his birth. We know this because Jesus said that there was no greater man than John the Baptist. He was greater than all men because he was kept free from sin

niversal sin:
The Bible states that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
No mention of sinlessness:
Scripture makes no specific mention of Mary being born without sin.
"Full of grace":
While the angel Gabriel called Mary "favored one" or "full of grace," the biblical Greek term for this does not imply sinlessness. It signifies that she was greatly blessed by God. The same phrase is used to describe Stephen, who is not considered sinless.
Jesus's uniqueness:
The Bible clearly presents Jesus as the only person to have ever been without sin.
Jesus was born without sin because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a human father. This miraculous conception bypassed the normal process of inheriting original sin from Adam through the male line. While Mary was human and a sinner, her role as the vessel for Jesus was different because Jesus's divine nature, the result of the Holy Spirit's action, made him free from the sin nature. The fact that Joseph was not the biological father is central to this belief, as it prevented the sin nature from being passed down biologically.

eleos1954 · 2025-10-11T12:24:12-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
If we accept your argument, then since Jesus came from Mary, it can be argued that sinlessness came from sin, and the grace of God was powerless to overcome sin, so He had to use sin which is evil to achieve a good end.

So does God teach that the end justifies the means?

No!! That is complete blasphemy!

Your argument is absurd. The correct view is that Mary was and is sinless, but being a creature , she needs the grace of God to keep her that way, so she rightfully calls God her Savior

God does not need sin to overcome sin from which He wishes to save us. To say that He does, is to impugne the very character of God

Mary was born sinless by grace, much the same way as John the Baptist. Mary received the grace of sinlessness at conception, John received it in the womb when his mother heard the voice of Mary. Sin runs in fear at the presence of God, John lept for joy. His soul was cleansed by the Holy Spirt prior to his birth. We know this because Jesus said that there was no greater man than John the Baptist. He was greater than all men because he was kept free from sin

Jesus was born without sin because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a human father. This miraculous conception bypassed the normal process of inheriting original sin from Adam through the male line. While Mary was human and a sinner, her role as the vessel for Jesus was different because Jesus's divine nature, the result of the Holy Spirit's action, made him free from the sin nature. The fact that Joseph was not the biological father is central to this belief, as it prevented the sin nature from being passed down biologically.

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-11T12:43:16-0500

eleos1954 said:
niversal sin:
The Bible states that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

No mention of sinlessness:
Scripture makes no specific mention of Mary being born without sin.

"Full of grace":
While the angel Gabriel called Mary "favored one" or "full of grace," the biblical Greek term for this does not imply sinlessness. It signifies that she was greatly blessed by God. The same phrase is used to describe Stephen, who is not considered sinless.

Jesus's uniqueness:
The Bible clearly presents Jesus as the only person to have ever been without sin.

Jesus was born without sin because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a human father. This miraculous conception bypassed the normal process of inheriting original sin from Adam through the male line. While Mary was human and a sinner, her role as the vessel for Jesus was different because Jesus's divine nature, the result of the Holy Spirit's action, made him free from the sin nature. The fact that Joseph was not the biological father is central to this belief, as it prevented the sin nature from being passed down biologically.

Stephen is not called Kecharitomene. The Greek words used are different for him, yet the translators used the same English words to translate different Greek. Stephen is called pleres charitos, not Kecharitomene. That term is reserved only for Mary

Kecharitomene is a Greek word used by the Archangel Gabriel to address Mary in Luke 1:28, and it means "one who has been graced" or "full of grace". It is a perfect passive participle, which indicates that the action of being graced was completed in the past but has an enduring, continuous result in the present. Therefore, it signifies that Mary has been and continues to be entirely full of God's grace, a state that is not temporary.

- Literal meaning:
  The term translates to "one who has been graced".
- Grammatical significance:
  The perfect passive participle tense indicates a completed action with an ongoing result. This means Mary was graced in the past and remains in that state of fullness.
- Figurative meaning:
  It is often translated as "full of grace" to convey the sense of being completely filled and endowed with God's favor, not just highly favored.
- Theological implications:
  This unique form of address highlights Mary's special and singular role in salvation history. It is often used to support the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, as the term suggests a state of being free from sin from the moment of conception.

Valletta · 2025-10-11T12:49:07-0500

eleos1954 said:
Jesus was born without sin because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by a human father. This miraculous conception bypassed the normal process of inheriting original sin from Adam through the male line. While Mary was human and a sinner, her role as the vessel for Jesus was different because Jesus's divine nature, the result of the Holy Spirit's action, made him free from the sin nature. The fact that Joseph was not the biological father is central to this belief, as it prevented the sin nature from being passed down biologically.

This is the folly of taking a phrase out of the Bible without taking the entire Bible into account. While you thought that Romans 3:10-12 meant there were no righteous people, I gave the example of Psalm 112, which speaks of righteous people. A phrase, for example, may be a lament. Obviously infants have not sinned, so concluding every person sinned is a mistake. Some things too are a way of speaking, if "all of Judea" went to see John the Baptist that does not mean that every Roman official and soldier and citizen in Judea went to see John the Baptist. In the case of Mary an understanding of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows the difference between Eve and Mary, while both came into the world without sin but Eve sinned and Mary did not. Mary was particularly blessed among women because she did God's will.

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-11T13:19:12-0500

Even the Orthodox who I believe deny the immaculate conception due to disagreements with doctrine on original sin, recognize that the term Kecharitomene means Mary has been kept free from sin

Mary represents and is a demonstration of everything God can do for us if we submit to His word. She is the first to obey God and possesses the fullness of His grace

This point is hammered home in Luke 11, which happens to be our friend Bob Ryan’s favorite verse to contradict the role of Mary. Jesus tells us not to worship her person and think that life flows from her body, He says that blessing comes from hearing the word of God and keeping it.
We are all children of Adam who succumbed and we suffer the consequences of the disobedience of Eve.
Mary is the first to obey God. She possessed the grace of God and continues to possess the grace of God, as the term Kecharitomene implies, but we are not her children by blood, yet she is our mother because she obeyed and brought forth Our Savior Jesus Christ. We did not make her, God made her and told us it would be so.

Mary says behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word. Perfect virtue demonstrates perfect humility. Jesus does not insult Mary by refusing praise to her flesh, He knows she is highly exalted by her obedience instead. We can be exalted by God if we deny ourselves and humble ourselves in obedience just as Mary did first
Mary had no other biological children, yet all the redeemed are her spiritual children by obedience.
Her seed keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Jesus is very clear and the Catholic Church agrees that the family of God is not the biological children of Mary, but those that do the will of the Father in heaven is part of God’s family, my brother, my sister and mother. Mary being the first to obey, is the new Eve, but her children are not biological by her blood, yet spiritual by the blood of her Son, the Lord Jesus Christ

Freth · 2025-10-11T14:00:17-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
Even the Orthodox who I believe deny the immaculate conception due to disagreements with doctrine on original sin, recognize that the term Kecharitomene means Mary has been kept free from sin

Mary represents and is a demonstration of everything God can do for us if we submit to His word. She is the first to obey God and possesses the fullness of His grace

This point is hammered home in Luke 11, which happens to be our friend Bob Ryan’s favorite verse to contradict the role of Mary. Jesus tells us not to worship her person and think that life flows from her body, He says that blessing comes from hearing the word of God and keeping it.
We are all children of Adam who succumbed and we suffer the consequences of the disobedience of Eve.
Mary is the first to obey God. She possessed the grace of God and continues to possess the grace of God, as the term Kecharitomene implies, but we are not her children by blood, yet she is our mother because she obeyed and brought forth Our Savior Jesus Christ. We did not make her, God made her and told us it would be so.

Mary says behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word. Perfect virtue demonstrates perfect humility. Jesus does not insult Mary by refusing praise to her flesh, He knows she is highly exalted by her obedience instead. We can be exalted by God if we deny ourselves and humble ourselves in obedience just as Mary did first
Mary had no other biological children, yet all the redeemed are her spiritual children by obedience.
Her seed keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Jesus is very clear and the Catholic Church agrees that the family of God is not the biological children of Mary, but those that do the will of the Father in heaven is part of God’s family, my brother, my sister and mother. Mary being the first to obey, is the new Eve, but her children are not biological by her blood, yet spiritual by the blood of her Son, the Lord Jesus Christ

Mary was not the first to obey God.

Adam and Eve obeyed God. There is an indeterminate period of time between the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall. See Genesis 2:25.
Abel obeyed God. See Genesis 4:3-4.
The sons of God in Genesis obeyed God until they started mingling with the daughters of men. See Romans 6:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:14.
Noah obeyed God. See Genesis 6:22.
Abraham obeyed God's charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. See Genesis 26:5.

These are just a few examples. The number of people who obeyed God, before Mary lived, are not recorded, but one can come to the reasonable conclusion that there were people obedient to God from the beginning to Mary. Just as there have been people obedient to God from the time of Mary to the present. Scripture records that there will be people obedient to God until the second coming.

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-11T15:21:53-0500

Freth said:
Mary was not the first to obey God.

Adam and Eve obeyed God. There is an indeterminate period of time between the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall. See Genesis 2:25.

Abel obeyed God. See Genesis 4:3-4.

The sons of God in Genesis obeyed God until they started mingling with the daughters of men. See Romans 6:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:14.

Noah obeyed God. See Genesis 6:22.

Abraham obeyed God's charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. See Genesis 26:5.

These are just a few examples. The number of people who obeyed God, before Mary lived, are not recorded, but one can come to the reasonable conclusion that there were people obedient to God from the beginning to Mary. Just as there have been people obedient to God from the time of Mary to the present. Scripture records that there will be people obedient to God until the second coming.

In Adam, all died. There are those that obeyed God in part, but Mary is the first with perfect obedience. As Canticles (song of Solomon) 6:8-9 says

8 One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. 9 Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

In Luke, Mary identifies as the perfect one by saying all generations will call me blessed, and also my soul magnifies the Lord. The Lord is not magnified by sin. It is a grave error to say He is so magnified. Else as Paul laments, shall we sin more so that Grace may more abound? God forbid!!

The Liturgist · 2025-10-11T20:19:53-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
Even the Orthodox who I believe deny the immaculate conception due to disagreements with doctrine on original sin, recognize that the term Kecharitomene means Mary has been kept free from sin

To be more precise, we do not believe our glorious lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary is guilty of voluntary sin. And our understanding of original sin is not that you are forensically guilty of Adam’s transgression, but rather that the fallen state of humanity is like a hereditary illness which results in most of us sinning with every thought, but through the grace of God, we can not only be forgiven for sin but given the ability to overcome the sinful passions, as St. Anthony the Great was able to do through great struggle in the desert, in the face of repeated onslaughts of different kinds of diabolical temptations and demonic attacks.

All Christians should pay attention to the Life of Anthony, because St. Athanasius, who wrote it, is also responsible for our 27 book New Testament Canon and also defended the faith against Arianism, the denial that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, in His divinity of one essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and likewise consubstantial with us in His humanity (St. Athanasius in particular insisted on the term “of one essence”).

At any rate, regarding the Theotokos, she was able to resist sin because with foreknowledge that she would consent to give birth to Him in the person of the Son and Logos, God specially graced her, as indicated by St. Gabriel when he addresses her as “Kecharitomene,” which was not a title used for St. Stephen the Illustrious Protomartyr, who was the first Christian to win a crown of martyrdom and is greatly venerable, but the Theotokos who carried God in her womb is uniquely venerable.

I don’t understand what motivates people to try to deny or downplay the holiness of the Theotokos. The word “Holy” means something set aside and consecrated, and the the Blessed Virgin Mary was consecrated as the Holy Theotokos, the immaculate* vessel by which Christ our True God was carried, who gave birth to Him and raised Him as His only biological parent.

I also don’t understand why people would attack the doctrine of the perpetual virginity, a doctrine accepted and commended not just by all Early Church Fathers but also by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, and a doctrine which is plainly indicated by the same scripture its opponents use to try to attack it - many of these same people are opposed to the idea of holy celibacy and a monastic vocation despite the fact that St. Paul praised virginity and celibacy as being superior even to marriage, a theme echoed elsewhere in the New Testament. Now marriage is not wrong, but the idea that holy celibacy is wrong is unscriptural.

Perhaps our Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis or @Ain't Zwinglian might have insights, or our Catholic friends @Michie @RileyG @Xeno.of.athens and @chevyontheriver or our Orthodox friends @prodromos @jas3 and @FenderTL5 , because I myself am utterly bewildered by this phenomenon.

It is not new however; antidicomarianism was documented by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus in the late fourth century, and was also a motivating factor behind the dreadful schism caused by the Christological error of Nestorius, who abused his position as the Patriarch of Constantinople to use force to try to suppress the veneration of Our Lady as Theotokos, and to justify this opposition to her veneration, developed a distorted Christology by manipulating certain speculations of Theodore of Mopsuestia into a radical Christology of separation and division between the divinity and humanity of Christ, one which compromises the idea of the Incarnation by leaning towards the idea of the Divine Logos and the man Jesus being two separate beings united by a single divine will (itself another Christological error, Monothelitism).

A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

God is Love

Romans 3:23 New International Version​

Romans 3:10-12 English Standard Version​

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Romans 3:23​

New International Version​

Romans 3:10-12​

English Standard Version​

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Romans 3:23​

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Romans 3:10-12​

English Standard Version​

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God is Love

Legend

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