A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

eleos1954 · Tuesday at 11:58 AM

The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 2:20–22, 3:20). ie the ability to procreate through her relationship with Adam) ... it took the two. Mary has no divine or semi-divine status

John 3:13: “NO ONE HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN EXCEPT THE ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN-THE SON OF MAN.”Meaning the person who has ever gone to heaven was Jesus who came from heaven. Thus, according to the verse stated, Mary, the mother of Jesus, did not ascend to heaven.

Biblical basis:
Mary herself prophesied that "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48).

The Hebrew word for blessed, asher, often means "happy" or "fortunate," as seen in Proverbs 28:14, "Blessed is the one who always trembles before God".

God's grace:
She is seen as being "full of grace" and uniquely chosen by God the ... vessel used for our saviors birth

Mother of God:
She is honored for her role as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. ... but is not divine or semi-divine

Imitation of virtues:
Her example of obedience to God's will makes her a model for faithful disciples.

Honor

Romans 12:10 (NIV): "Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves".

Matthew 19:19 (NIV): "Honor your father and your mother, and: 'Love your neighbor as yourself' ".

1 Timothy 5:17 (NIV): "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching".

boughtwithaprice · Wednesday at 5:35 AM

eleos1954 said:
The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 2:20–22, 3:20). ie the ability to procreate through her relationship with Adam) ... it took the two. Mary has no divine or semi-divine status

John 3:13: “NO ONE HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN EXCEPT THE ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN-THE SON OF MAN.”Meaning the person who has ever gone to heaven was Jesus who came from heaven. Thus, according to the verse stated, Mary, the mother of Jesus, did not ascend to heaven.

Biblical basis:
Mary herself prophesied that "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48).

The Hebrew word for blessed, asher, often means "happy" or "fortunate," as seen in Proverbs 28:14, "Blessed is the one who always trembles before God".

God's grace:
She is seen as being "full of grace" and uniquely chosen by God the ... vessel used for our saviors birth

Mother of God:
She is honored for her role as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. ... but is not divine or semi-divine

Imitation of virtues:
Her example of obedience to God's will makes her a model for faithful disciples.

Honor

Romans 12:10 (NIV): "Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves".

Matthew 19:19 (NIV): "Honor your father and your mother, and: 'Love your neighbor as yourself' ".

1 Timothy 5:17 (NIV): "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching".

Now you are making straw man arguments to hold your position. This is a sign the you are like the Apsotle Paul when he was Saul

Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? It’s getting hard for you to kick against the goads.

The Catholic Church does not claim that Mary is divine or semi divine. It’s no where in Catholic teaching. Mary is a creature created by God at His will and for His good pleasure. She has perfect virtue, and she reflects, she does not possess, she reflects the glory of God, as from her came forth God Himself.

To deny that, you have to either deny the divinity of Christ or disparage the full grace of God as impotent to cleanse one from sin. If He can’t even help His own mother, what hope of we of being cleansed from sin?

Jesus told a parable about Israel that slew the prophets. They all insisted everyone was the same and persecuted the prophets sent to convict them. The king said I will send my son, they will respect him. The people said this is the heir, let us slay him and all will be ours.
We act the same way when we insist that Mary is no better than us. We do not want to honor her because we want the honor for ourselves, even though we do not deserve it. Which one of us can say that bore the Son of God in their womb? Which of us can say God subjected Himself to us for thirty years? Which can say God revealed His glory at our request? (John 3)
We need to be more humble. Even Jacob, who wrestled with God, humbled himself and went to his mother to prepare to receive the blessing. Catholics do the same when we go to Mary

St John Crysostom teaches us that God humiliated Satan by defeating him by means of his supposed triumph. A virgin, a tree, and death. For Satan, the Virgin was Eve, the tree was the Tree of Knowledge, and Adam faced death when he ate the fruit. Satan thought he had won. Adam brought death to all men
God has other plans and completely humiliated Satan. God’s virgin is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the tree is the cross, and the death of Christ brings life to all that believe on Him
Satan is the enemy of Mary. To take her out or disparage her role does dishonor to God.

We honor Mary as the mother of God and our mother, and we gladly humble ourselves as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven, not by our own power but through the blood of Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us.

Grace has power, it is not impotent, but mighty to save, as who the Son sets free is free indeed. It is not imaginary to be had later. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation. Christ invites all men everywhere to humble themselves and repent and know the power of His grace.
His power is indescribable, but I tell you, when I humbled myself and accepted His grace through His Church, the sin that so easily beset me was gone. It was not by my effort, but my complete surrender, to God alone be the glory

eleos1954 · 2025-10-04T11:14:28-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
Those are your teachings on the Scriptures, and not scripture itself, it is your interpretation.
To find Apostolic teaching from the ones closest to Jesus, we go back to the first and second century. Specifically we read the Didache, and Demonstration of the Apostolic preaching by Iraneus. They give a clearer picture of scriptural Christianity than a book that came along after 1860 as Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
We hold our forefathers to be more wise and intelligent in the ways of God than we are today, as they were closer to the source of the teaching
You saying that the woman of Revelation 12 is symbolic does not make your words true.
God said the Messiah would be born of a woman, we know her to be Mary. God said she would be the enemy of Satan, if she sinned, she would be his slave. Mary is an Israelite, so Messiah came from Israel, but specifically Mary
Mary is the Mother of the New Testament Church, as she gave birth to Jesus Himself who is the head of the Church. She is the first Christian and the only Christian who stood at the foot of the cross with faith.
She had spent 33 years with Jesus and raised Him from a boy. The others scattered in fear or were overcome with grief. She alone knew what her Son was doing. She held her tongue in obedience to God. She was present in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles. She had also asked the Lord to reveal His glory in His first miracle changing water into wine.
It was Mary’s free will offering that brought Jesus into the world, as God does not force obedience to His word. Blessed are those that hear the word of God and keep it. Mary’s reply echos Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word, and Jesus was conceived the the Holy Spirit. Do we not honor this woman? How does discarding her or diminishing her bring honor to Jesus? Even sinners know the words of insult or derogation toward their mother are fighting words. Do we not offer God the same respect?

No, your interpretation is not scripture. Jesus even warns us of faulty interpretations. When He rebuked the Pharisees in John 5, He said you have the scriptures and think you have eternal life in them. Jesus said the scriptures speak of me and you will not come to me that you may have life. Just because someone has the scriptures does not mean they are properly interpreting them and on the path to life
What makes you so sure of your judgment when nearly all of Church History disagrees with you. Why do you persecute the Church and ignore God’s mother who brought Jesus to you?
In Luke, Gabriel proclaims the Lord is with her, and Psalm 45 says she stands at the right hand of Jesus in heaven. Song of Solomon speaks of the love between Mary and Jesus. Canticles 6:8-9

8 One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. 9 Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother. Others call her most blessed as scripture has Mary say, all generations will call me blessed.
In the second Century, the Apostolic teaching is that Mary is the new Eve. Through the disobedience of the Virgin Eve, death entered the world. Through the obedient Virgin, Mary, man is reanimated and brought to life. Eve was called the mother of all living, yet brought death. Mary, through her obedience to God is the mother of the Church and all believers, as she is the mother of God. Is she not worthy of honor?

"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".
Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".
1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Valletta · 2025-10-04T11:24:44-0500

eleos1954 said:
"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies sinned. Psalm 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; they will be remember forever. RSVCE

eleos1954 · 2025-10-04T11:35:26-0500

Valletta said:
Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies sinned. Psalm 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; they will be remember forever. RSVCE

Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-04T13:12:16-0500

eleos1954 said:
"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

God declared her the enemy of Satan. How can she be the enemy of Satan and his slave at the same time?

An enemy is not just a disgruntled servant, but the opposite of everything one stands for.

Also if Mary sinned, then salvation arose from sin which would make sin good, but it’s not. It is evil

Scripture says woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil. If Mary was the slave of sin, that scripture is nullified.

What advantage does it bring to impune the Blessed Virgin? None, it does no good.
Mary is a creature and she freely admits it, when she calls God her savior. Salvation is not present in her by nature, God gave it to her by grace. I ask again, if the fullness of God’s grace could not keep her from sin, what hope do we have?

I have had some SDA speak rightfully about tradition that contradicts the word of God, and that is a good thing, but that does not make all tradition evil and to be ignored. Only when the word of men is placed above the word of God, does it become evil.
For example we look at Christ’s rebuke of the . The word of God say Honor thy father and thy mother. The Pharisees said if you give your money to the Temple, you do not have to honor your parents. The tradition of Corbin is no wheee taught in scripture, but the Pharisees nullified the word of God for their own ends.

What is done today? Scripture say thou shalt not commit adultery. No where in scripture do we read that a woman that had children from two different fathers while both fathers are still alive is not guilty of adultery. No where in scripture do we read the lines, “…and Joseph knew his wife and she bore him a son named…”
Yet some teach that Mary had other children besides Jesus. That nullifies the command against adultery and places it on the mother of God herself. It can then be reasoned that Jesus was a ba***rd. This is blasphemous, yet it is tradition and not scripture. No matter how reasonable we think the tradition is, it is still tradition and not scripture.

Mary’s relationship with God does not require her to sin, in order for us to be saved. Mary is the perfect one because she possessed perfect humility despite having no sin. She did not use arrogance and demand God save her, she humbly admitted her dependence on God and called Him her savior, as He alone is Creator, and she also said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word. She heard the word of God, and keeps it.

Mary is still short of the glory of God, as she does not possess the power of sinlessness. She retains it by grace, just as we will when we are redeemed in the kingdom of heaven

While we are here, we are subject to temptation and still fall, but by the grace of God , we mortify the deeds of the flesh, deny ourselves and cease to sin mortally

Valletta · 2025-10-04T14:20:39-0500

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

Wrong, obviously newborns never sinned Mary never sinned. And you see there are righteous people referred to in the Bible. This is the problem with taking one sentence, such as a lament, from the Bible and not taking others into account.

eleos1954 · 2025-10-05T13:27:46-0500

Valletta said:
Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies sinned. Psalm 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; they will be remember forever. RSVCE

We are born into a sinful world .... we will indeed sin. But it is God who will judge and will hole each of us according to our accountability. there is an age of accountability. The Bible does not mention an explicit age of accountability, but it does speak of personal responsibility and accountability based on one’s ability to understand and respond to God’s message. The age of accountability may vary with individuals, but it is related to their spiritual and mental development and their response to the gospel message.

Regarding how we will be judged, the Bible teaches that God will judge everyone according to their deeds. Those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be judged according to their faith in Him, while those who have rejected Him will be judged according to their works. The Bible also teaches that God is just and merciful, and that He will judge everyone fairly. Bible verses that speak about accountability and judgment:

Innocence Before Knowledge:
Deuteronomy 1:39 states that the children of Israel were spared from captivity because they "did not yet know good from bad". This implies a state of innocence before moral discernment.
Conscious Choice:
Isaiah 7:16 suggests a child will know "enough to reject the wrong and choose the right" before a land is laid waste. This highlights the importance of conscious choice in the concept of accountability.
Grace for Children:
Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:14, "Let the little children come to me... for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these," demonstrates a special compassion for children and a belief they are under God's grace until they become accountable.
Individual Accountability:
Romans 14:12 reminds us that "every one of us shall give account of himself to God".
Divine Discretion:
While the Bible teaches children are not held accountable in the same way as adults, God is the only one who truly knows the exact moment a child crosses the threshold into conscious sin and rejection of Him.

Most certainly Mary being an adult was at the age of accountability.

Valletta · 2025-10-05T14:17:34-0500

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

You were there? What sins do you accuse the mother of God of having committed?

Valletta · 2025-10-05T14:22:46-0500

Valletta said:
You were there? What sins do you accuse the mother of God of having committed? What sins do you accuse infants of having committed? You are also wrong about there supposedly not being any righteous people, the Bible contradicts you.

The Liturgist · 2025-10-05T16:24:18-0500

eleos1954 said:
"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Firstly, Ecclesiastes was obviously written before the birth of the Theotokos, and Romans and 1 John post-date her demise. We can say this because the Holy Apostles were still alive at the time of her repose. Secondly, these scriptures were written for our benefit - indeed it is unlikely Our Lady ever heard Romans or 1 John per se.

However, just because the Theotokos did not commit forensic sin does not mean she saved herself. Rather she was saved, like the rest of us, through Christ our True God, whose incarnation happened in her womb.

Scripture does clearly assert the Theotokos to be blessed and that all generations shall regard her as blessed.

*Of course, she knew the Holy Apostles, and was particularly well acquainted with St. Luke, who was her physician, and St. John the Beloved Disciple by virtue of having adopted him at the command of her Son from the Cross) although she was no doubt familiar with their message. Ecclesiastes however she was likely well aware of given the nature of her youth. Actually for that matter, most first century Christians would not have heard both Romans and John, since we are talking about epistles written by St. Paul and St. John to specific local ekkelsia, which were only later identified as genuine apostolic writings and included in the New Testament Canon as it was formalized in 367 AD by St. Athanasius based on earlier proposed canons (such as that in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius, that of the Syriac Peshitta**, a minimalist 22 book canon that lacks 2 John, 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation) and that of the ancient manuscripts like the Codex Sinaiticus which included a few extra books later reckoned spurious if not heretical, like Laodiceans, most likely for fear of omissions (indeed St. Jerome translated this into Latin for the Vulgate despite regarding it as an apocryphon) as well as early Patristic writings such as the Shepherd of Hermas.

** The extra five books of the New Testament canon were later added to the West Syriac Peshitto used by the Syriac Orthodox Church and historically by the Maronite Christians of Lebanon (among whom it survives as a liturgical language, but sadly the Maronites on;y speak Arabic in the vernacular, whereas some West Syriac Christians from Syria, Turkey and the Holy Land, and nearly a million East Syriac / Assyrian Christians in Iraq and Iran, do continue to speak various Aramaic dialects which are related to Syriac, which in turn was historically the predominant form of Aramaic used by Christians. Indeed Christian, Jewish and Mandaean speakers of Aramaic developed their own divergent dialects; the Mandaeans speak Mandaic for instance, although anyone raised speaking Aramaic who later studies the language in depth can with some effort understand these various dialects. However they are quite distinct from Old Testament Aramaic or Gallilean Neo-Aramaic, the dialect likely spoken by Christ our True God, separated by time and geography.

In English, unlike in German, we don’t have many surviving dialects which have intelligibility problems, but there are a few used in parts of England which are very hard to understand, but which usually also exist in a mitigated accent form, for example, Geordie, the dialect spoken in North Yorkshire and Lancashire, or Scots. However we can get a sense of how intelligibility decreases over time by trying to read Middle English (I can read Geoffrey Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales per aspera, but the more removed we get from Modern English the more opaque it becomes, and Old English is unintelligible to me, except with a few recognizable words. Additionally, the West Frisian language, spoken in a province of the Netherlands, is also almost mutually intelligible with English and Scots, hence the saying “Eggs and green cheese is good English and good Fries.”

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A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

eleos1954

God is Love

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boughtwithaprice

Legend

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eleos1954

God is Love

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Valletta

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eleos1954

God is Love

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boughtwithaprice

Legend

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Valletta

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eleos1954

God is Love

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Valletta

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Valletta

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The Liturgist

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