A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

eleos1954 · Sep 30, 2025

The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 2:20–22, 3:20). ie the ability to procreate through her relationship with Adam) ... it took the two. Mary has no divine or semi-divine status

John 3:13: “NO ONE HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN EXCEPT THE ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN-THE SON OF MAN.”Meaning the person who has ever gone to heaven was Jesus who came from heaven. Thus, according to the verse stated, Mary, the mother of Jesus, did not ascend to heaven.

Biblical basis:
Mary herself prophesied that "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48).

The Hebrew word for blessed, asher, often means "happy" or "fortunate," as seen in Proverbs 28:14, "Blessed is the one who always trembles before God".

God's grace:
She is seen as being "full of grace" and uniquely chosen by God the ... vessel used for our saviors birth

Mother of God:
She is honored for her role as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. ... but is not divine or semi-divine

Imitation of virtues:
Her example of obedience to God's will makes her a model for faithful disciples.

Honor

Romans 12:10 (NIV): "Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves".

Matthew 19:19 (NIV): "Honor your father and your mother, and: 'Love your neighbor as yourself' ".

1 Timothy 5:17 (NIV): "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching".

boughtwithaprice · Oct 1, 2025

eleos1954 said:
The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 2:20–22, 3:20). ie the ability to procreate through her relationship with Adam) ... it took the two. Mary has no divine or semi-divine status

John 3:13: “NO ONE HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN EXCEPT THE ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN-THE SON OF MAN.”Meaning the person who has ever gone to heaven was Jesus who came from heaven. Thus, according to the verse stated, Mary, the mother of Jesus, did not ascend to heaven.

Biblical basis:
Mary herself prophesied that "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48).

The Hebrew word for blessed, asher, often means "happy" or "fortunate," as seen in Proverbs 28:14, "Blessed is the one who always trembles before God".

God's grace:
She is seen as being "full of grace" and uniquely chosen by God the ... vessel used for our saviors birth

Mother of God:
She is honored for her role as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. ... but is not divine or semi-divine

Imitation of virtues:
Her example of obedience to God's will makes her a model for faithful disciples.

Honor

Romans 12:10 (NIV): "Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves".

Matthew 19:19 (NIV): "Honor your father and your mother, and: 'Love your neighbor as yourself' ".

1 Timothy 5:17 (NIV): "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching".

Now you are making straw man arguments to hold your position. This is a sign the you are like the Apsotle Paul when he was Saul

Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? It’s getting hard for you to kick against the goads.

The Catholic Church does not claim that Mary is divine or semi divine. It’s no where in Catholic teaching. Mary is a creature created by God at His will and for His good pleasure. She has perfect virtue, and she reflects, she does not possess, she reflects the glory of God, as from her came forth God Himself.

To deny that, you have to either deny the divinity of Christ or disparage the full grace of God as impotent to cleanse one from sin. If He can’t even help His own mother, what hope of we of being cleansed from sin?

Jesus told a parable about Israel that slew the prophets. They all insisted everyone was the same and persecuted the prophets sent to convict them. The king said I will send my son, they will respect him. The people said this is the heir, let us slay him and all will be ours.
We act the same way when we insist that Mary is no better than us. We do not want to honor her because we want the honor for ourselves, even though we do not deserve it. Which one of us can say that bore the Son of God in their womb? Which of us can say God subjected Himself to us for thirty years? Which can say God revealed His glory at our request? (John 3)
We need to be more humble. Even Jacob, who wrestled with God, humbled himself and went to his mother to prepare to receive the blessing. Catholics do the same when we go to Mary

St John Crysostom teaches us that God humiliated Satan by defeating him by means of his supposed triumph. A virgin, a tree, and death. For Satan, the Virgin was Eve, the tree was the Tree of Knowledge, and Adam faced death when he ate the fruit. Satan thought he had won. Adam brought death to all men
God has other plans and completely humiliated Satan. God’s virgin is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the tree is the cross, and the death of Christ brings life to all that believe on Him
Satan is the enemy of Mary. To take her out or disparage her role does dishonor to God.

We honor Mary as the mother of God and our mother, and we gladly humble ourselves as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven, not by our own power but through the blood of Christ who loved us and gave Himself for us.

Grace has power, it is not impotent, but mighty to save, as who the Son sets free is free indeed. It is not imaginary to be had later. Now is the time, today is the day of salvation. Christ invites all men everywhere to humble themselves and repent and know the power of His grace.
His power is indescribable, but I tell you, when I humbled myself and accepted His grace through His Church, the sin that so easily beset me was gone. It was not by my effort, but my complete surrender, to God alone be the glory

eleos1954 · Saturday at 11:14 AM

boughtwithaprice said:
Those are your teachings on the Scriptures, and not scripture itself, it is your interpretation.
To find Apostolic teaching from the ones closest to Jesus, we go back to the first and second century. Specifically we read the Didache, and Demonstration of the Apostolic preaching by Iraneus. They give a clearer picture of scriptural Christianity than a book that came along after 1860 as Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
We hold our forefathers to be more wise and intelligent in the ways of God than we are today, as they were closer to the source of the teaching
You saying that the woman of Revelation 12 is symbolic does not make your words true.
God said the Messiah would be born of a woman, we know her to be Mary. God said she would be the enemy of Satan, if she sinned, she would be his slave. Mary is an Israelite, so Messiah came from Israel, but specifically Mary
Mary is the Mother of the New Testament Church, as she gave birth to Jesus Himself who is the head of the Church. She is the first Christian and the only Christian who stood at the foot of the cross with faith.
She had spent 33 years with Jesus and raised Him from a boy. The others scattered in fear or were overcome with grief. She alone knew what her Son was doing. She held her tongue in obedience to God. She was present in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles. She had also asked the Lord to reveal His glory in His first miracle changing water into wine.
It was Mary’s free will offering that brought Jesus into the world, as God does not force obedience to His word. Blessed are those that hear the word of God and keep it. Mary’s reply echos Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word, and Jesus was conceived the the Holy Spirit. Do we not honor this woman? How does discarding her or diminishing her bring honor to Jesus? Even sinners know the words of insult or derogation toward their mother are fighting words. Do we not offer God the same respect?

No, your interpretation is not scripture. Jesus even warns us of faulty interpretations. When He rebuked the Pharisees in John 5, He said you have the scriptures and think you have eternal life in them. Jesus said the scriptures speak of me and you will not come to me that you may have life. Just because someone has the scriptures does not mean they are properly interpreting them and on the path to life
What makes you so sure of your judgment when nearly all of Church History disagrees with you. Why do you persecute the Church and ignore God’s mother who brought Jesus to you?
In Luke, Gabriel proclaims the Lord is with her, and Psalm 45 says she stands at the right hand of Jesus in heaven. Song of Solomon speaks of the love between Mary and Jesus. Canticles 6:8-9

8 One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. 9 Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother. Others call her most blessed as scripture has Mary say, all generations will call me blessed.
In the second Century, the Apostolic teaching is that Mary is the new Eve. Through the disobedience of the Virgin Eve, death entered the world. Through the obedient Virgin, Mary, man is reanimated and brought to life. Eve was called the mother of all living, yet brought death. Mary, through her obedience to God is the mother of the Church and all believers, as she is the mother of God. Is she not worthy of honor?

"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".
Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".
1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Valletta · Saturday at 11:24 AM

eleos1954 said:
"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies sinned. Psalm 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; they will be remember forever. RSVCE

eleos1954 · Saturday at 11:35 AM

Valletta said:
Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies sinned. Psalm 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; they will be remember forever. RSVCE

Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

boughtwithaprice · Saturday at 1:12 PM

eleos1954 said:
"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

God declared her the enemy of Satan. How can she be the enemy of Satan and his slave at the same time?

An enemy is not just a disgruntled servant, but the opposite of everything one stands for.

Also if Mary sinned, then salvation arose from sin which would make sin good, but it’s not. It is evil

Scripture says woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil. If Mary was the slave of sin, that scripture is nullified.

What advantage does it bring to impune the Blessed Virgin? None, it does no good.
Mary is a creature and she freely admits it, when she calls God her savior. Salvation is not present in her by nature, God gave it to her by grace. I ask again, if the fullness of God’s grace could not keep her from sin, what hope do we have?

I have had some SDA speak rightfully about tradition that contradicts the word of God, and that is a good thing, but that does not make all tradition evil and to be ignored. Only when the word of men is placed above the word of God, does it become evil.
For example we look at Christ’s rebuke of the . The word of God say Honor thy father and thy mother. The Pharisees said if you give your money to the Temple, you do not have to honor your parents. The tradition of Corbin is no wheee taught in scripture, but the Pharisees nullified the word of God for their own ends.

What is done today? Scripture say thou shalt not commit adultery. No where in scripture do we read that a woman that had children from two different fathers while both fathers are still alive is not guilty of adultery. No where in scripture do we read the lines, “…and Joseph knew his wife and she bore him a son named…”
Yet some teach that Mary had other children besides Jesus. That nullifies the command against adultery and places it on the mother of God herself. It can then be reasoned that Jesus was a ba***rd. This is blasphemous, yet it is tradition and not scripture. No matter how reasonable we think the tradition is, it is still tradition and not scripture.

Mary’s relationship with God does not require her to sin, in order for us to be saved. Mary is the perfect one because she possessed perfect humility despite having no sin. She did not use arrogance and demand God save her, she humbly admitted her dependence on God and called Him her savior, as He alone is Creator, and she also said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to your word. She heard the word of God, and keeps it.

Mary is still short of the glory of God, as she does not possess the power of sinlessness. She retains it by grace, just as we will when we are redeemed in the kingdom of heaven

While we are here, we are subject to temptation and still fall, but by the grace of God , we mortify the deeds of the flesh, deny ourselves and cease to sin mortally

Valletta · Saturday at 2:20 PM

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

Wrong, obviously newborns never sinned Mary never sinned. And you see there are righteous people referred to in the Bible. This is the problem with taking one sentence, such as a lament, from the Bible and not taking others into account.

eleos1954 · Sunday at 1:27 PM

Valletta said:
Jesus never sinned. Nor have babies sinned. Psalm 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; they will be remember forever. RSVCE

We are born into a sinful world .... we will indeed sin. But it is God who will judge and will hole each of us according to our accountability. there is an age of accountability. The Bible does not mention an explicit age of accountability, but it does speak of personal responsibility and accountability based on one’s ability to understand and respond to God’s message. The age of accountability may vary with individuals, but it is related to their spiritual and mental development and their response to the gospel message.

Regarding how we will be judged, the Bible teaches that God will judge everyone according to their deeds. Those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be judged according to their faith in Him, while those who have rejected Him will be judged according to their works. The Bible also teaches that God is just and merciful, and that He will judge everyone fairly. Bible verses that speak about accountability and judgment:

Innocence Before Knowledge:
Deuteronomy 1:39 states that the children of Israel were spared from captivity because they "did not yet know good from bad". This implies a state of innocence before moral discernment.
Conscious Choice:
Isaiah 7:16 suggests a child will know "enough to reject the wrong and choose the right" before a land is laid waste. This highlights the importance of conscious choice in the concept of accountability.
Grace for Children:
Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:14, "Let the little children come to me... for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these," demonstrates a special compassion for children and a belief they are under God's grace until they become accountable.
Individual Accountability:
Romans 14:12 reminds us that "every one of us shall give account of himself to God".
Divine Discretion:
While the Bible teaches children are not held accountable in the same way as adults, God is the only one who truly knows the exact moment a child crosses the threshold into conscious sin and rejection of Him.

Most certainly Mary being an adult was at the age of accountability.

Valletta · Sunday at 2:17 PM

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

You were there? What sins do you accuse the mother of God of having committed?

Valletta · Sunday at 2:22 PM

Valletta said:
You were there? What sins do you accuse the mother of God of having committed? What sins do you accuse infants of having committed? You are also wrong about there supposedly not being any righteous people, the Bible contradicts you.

The Liturgist · Sunday at 4:24 PM

eleos1954 said:
"Mary is the perfect one, the only one of her mother." NOT TRUE according to scripture.

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Romans 3:10: "None is righteous, no, not one".

Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins".

1 John 1:8: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Firstly, Ecclesiastes was obviously written before the birth of the Theotokos, and Romans and 1 John post-date her demise. We can say this because the Holy Apostles were still alive at the time of her repose. Secondly, these scriptures were written for our benefit - indeed it is unlikely Our Lady ever heard Romans or 1 John per se.

However, just because the Theotokos did not commit forensic sin does not mean she saved herself. Rather she was saved, like the rest of us, through Christ our True God, whose incarnation happened in her womb.

Scripture does clearly assert the Theotokos to be blessed and that all generations shall regard her as blessed.

*Of course, she knew the Holy Apostles, and was particularly well acquainted with St. Luke, who was her physician, and St. John the Beloved Disciple by virtue of having adopted him at the command of her Son from the Cross) although she was no doubt familiar with their message. Ecclesiastes however she was likely well aware of given the nature of her youth. Actually for that matter, most first century Christians would not have heard both Romans and John, since we are talking about epistles written by St. Paul and St. John to specific local ekkelsia, which were only later identified as genuine apostolic writings and included in the New Testament Canon as it was formalized in 367 AD by St. Athanasius based on earlier proposed canons (such as that in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius, that of the Syriac Peshitta**, a minimalist 22 book canon that lacks 2 John, 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation) and that of the ancient manuscripts like the Codex Sinaiticus which included a few extra books later reckoned spurious if not heretical, like Laodiceans, most likely for fear of omissions (indeed St. Jerome translated this into Latin for the Vulgate despite regarding it as an apocryphon) as well as early Patristic writings such as the Shepherd of Hermas.

** The extra five books of the New Testament canon were later added to the West Syriac Peshitto used by the Syriac Orthodox Church and historically by the Maronite Christians of Lebanon (among whom it survives as a liturgical language, but sadly the Maronites on;y speak Arabic in the vernacular, whereas some West Syriac Christians from Syria, Turkey and the Holy Land, and nearly a million East Syriac / Assyrian Christians in Iraq and Iran, do continue to speak various Aramaic dialects which are related to Syriac, which in turn was historically the predominant form of Aramaic used by Christians. Indeed Christian, Jewish and Mandaean speakers of Aramaic developed their own divergent dialects; the Mandaeans speak Mandaic for instance, although anyone raised speaking Aramaic who later studies the language in depth can with some effort understand these various dialects. However they are quite distinct from Old Testament Aramaic or Gallilean Neo-Aramaic, the dialect likely spoken by Christ our True God, separated by time and geography.

In English, unlike in German, we don’t have many surviving dialects which have intelligibility problems, but there are a few used in parts of England which are very hard to understand, but which usually also exist in a mitigated accent form, for example, Geordie, the dialect spoken in North Yorkshire and Lancashire, or Scots. However we can get a sense of how intelligibility decreases over time by trying to read Middle English (I can read Geoffrey Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales per aspera, but the more removed we get from Modern English the more opaque it becomes, and Old English is unintelligible to me, except with a few recognizable words. Additionally, the West Frisian language, spoken in a province of the Netherlands, is also almost mutually intelligible with English and Scots, hence the saying “Eggs and green cheese is good English and good Fries.”

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-08T04:54:25-0500

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned .... that's a given. The point is/was about Mary ... yes Mary sinned.

If we accept your argument, then since Jesus came from Mary, it can be argued that sinlessness came from sin, and the grace of God was powerless to overcome sin, so He had to use sin which is evil to achieve a good end.

So does God teach that the end justifies the means?

No!! That is complete blasphemy!

Your argument is absurd. The correct view is that Mary was and is sinless, but being a creature , she needs the grace of God to keep her that way, so she rightfully calls God her Savior

God does not need sin to overcome sin from which He wishes to save us. To say that He does, is to impugne the very character of God

Mary was born sinless by grace, much the same way as John the Baptist. Mary received the grace of sinlessness at conception, John received it in the womb when his mother heard the voice of Mary. Sin runs in fear at the presence of God, John lept for joy. His soul was cleansed by the Holy Spirt prior to his birth. We know this because Jesus said that there was no greater man than John the Baptist. He was greater than all men because he was kept free from sin

David Lamb · 2025-10-08T05:18:24-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
If we accept your argument, then since Jesus came from Mary, it can be argued that sinlessness came from sin, and the grace of God was powerless to overcome sin, so He had to use sin which is evil to achieve a good end.

So does God teach that the end justifies the means?

No!! That is complete blasphemy!

Your argument is absurd. The correct view is that Mary was and is sinless, but being a creature , she needs the grace of God to keep her that way, so she rightfully calls God her Savior

God does not need sin to overcome sin from which He wishes to save us. To say that He does, is to impugne the very character of God

Mary was born sinless by grace, much the same way as John the Baptist. Mary received the grace of sinlessness at conception, John received it in the womb when his mother heard the voice of Mary. Sin runs in fear at the presence of God, John lept for joy. His soul was cleansed by the Holy Spirt prior to his birth. We know this because Jesus said that there was no greater man than John the Baptist. He was greater than all men because he was kept free from sin

But the same thing could be said about Mary's own birth, unless you are saying that you believe her mother, grandmother, great-grandmother etc. were all sinless. If Mary could be born of sinful parents, why could not Jesus be born sinless, as the bible teaches, without having a sinless mother?

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-08T05:26:25-0500

Since this thread is about Baptism, we need to explore it more. Is it a symbol or a sacrament?

Jesus said that He had to undergo baptism to fulfill all righteousness. Why would sinless man need to undergo a process to cleanse Him from sin?

We understand when we see what was happening. The Old Covenant was coming to an end because men could not keep it. God said I will make a New Covenant. We need to Old Covenant to understand the New Covenant, but we need not keep the Old when we have the New.

Water was created on the first day, before light was created. As it was present at the beginning, it is the perfect matter to mark the beginning of the New Covenant.
If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things have passed away, all things have become new.

Water was crested on the first day of the week
Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week.
Pentecost was the first day of the week and the tongues of fire came upon the Apostles as they received power from the Holy Spirit. This marked the beginning of the Church, and it started on the first day of the week.

Is it no wonder that Christians worship on the first day of the week? The Sabbath is still honored, but it is not kept in the same way the Jews kept it.

Baptism marks the new birth, as Jesus said unless a man is born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
There is no cause to refuse baptism or speak of it as merely symbolic. It defines the New Covenant.

The New Covenant consists of self denial and following in Jesus’ footsteps. If we do that, we fulfill the old law. Iraneus teaches this in his work Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching point 96 from the beginning of Christianity. We remember and honor the Sabbath, but we need not keep Sabbath as the Jews, we have Jesus with us always. We can confidently say with Paul, I desire to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified.

boughtwithaprice · 2025-10-08T05:37:27-0500

David Lamb said:
But the same thing could be said about Mary's own birth, unless you are saying that you believe her mother, grandmother, great-grandmother etc. were all sinless. If Mary could be born of sinful parents, why could not Jesus be born sinless, as the bible teaches, without having a sinless mother?

For the very reason I told you. God being sinless does not need sin to achieve His ends, else it can be argued that He depends on sin and is powerless against it.

God’s power created Adam and Eve sinless. Sin came after by Eve believing the serpent, and we all died being born in sin
God’s power created Mary, the new Eve, sinless as the first Eve, but obedient rather than disobedient like the first Eve. In her obedience, she brought forth the Savior and redeemer of the world. Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word.

Why does it have to be this way? You need to ask God, because He said He would put enmity between Satan and the woman, between his seed and her seed. We are not saved by sin, we are redeemed from sin

David Lamb · 2025-10-08T05:42:01-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
For the very reason I told you. God being sinless does not need sin to achieve His ends, else it can be argued that He depends on sin and is powerless against it.

God’s power created Adam and Eve sinless. Sin came after by Eve believing the serpent, and we all died being born in sin
God’s power created Mary, the new Eve, sinless as the first Eve, but obedient rather than disobedient like the first Eve. In her obedience, she brought forth the Savior and redeemer of the world. Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word.

Why does it have to be this way? You need to ask God, because He said He would put enmity between Satan and the woman, between his seed and her seed. We are not saved by sin, we are redeemed from sin

I didn't say that God needed sin, or depends on it or is powerless against it (sorry if my post was unclear). But He certainly did not need a sinless mother to bear His sinless Son. You seem to be saying that Mary being sinless shows God's power. But Jesus Christ being conceived and born sinless shows it, and is far more in agreement with what we find in God's word, where we are not told anywhere that Mary was sinless.

ChubbyCherub · 2025-10-08T05:51:55-0500

boughtwithaprice said:
I have wondered why God commands us to be baptized. The perspective affects our view on creation and salvation.

To begin to think about this, we must discern between science, which is observable data and narrative, which is an explanation of the data.

The current narrative in science is that light was created first, they call this the Big Bang which emerged from a singularity. The narrative tells us that the Universe is approximately 13 billion years old, and it covers a distance of billions of what are termed “light years”

What does the data say? The age and size of the universe is based on our knowledge of the speed of light, but we do not know the direct speed of light. We know the speed of reflection. No experiment has been designed which is capable of measuring the one way speed of light. An error in our inference can turn out that our beliefs on the age and size of the universe is profoundly wrong.

Our inference tells us that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but that cannot be proven with observational data. Galileo observed that moons orbit Jupiter and Venus orbits the Sun, and we infer that Earth does the same. What does the data say? We see that all celestial bodies appear to be moving away from Earth, and they tell us that it is impossible to find a center of the universe. This is not observation, this is inference

What does God say? He does not say that light was created first. Let there be light was not the beginning of the material universe. Before there was light, darkness was over the face of the deep and the Spirit moved upon the waters. This tells us that water, not light was the first creation.
What does the data say? Water can be found everywhere. The moon, mars, Jupiter’s moons and even the surface of the sun have been observed to contain water. Why would there be water in those places? Hydrogen is very simple, but the other component of water is oxygen, and it is unique among the elements. There is no simple path to form oxygen beginning with elemental hydrogen and nuclear fusion.

God also tells us that the Sun and stars were not formed until the fourth day of creation, yet there was light on the first day. Would we have data to back that up? Yes, computer programs have been written that can subtract all the light from then sun and stars, and the universe still contains a faint glow. Remnant of the light of the first day?

The James Webb telescope also does not show us what we would expect at the beginning of the universe if it came from a singularity of light

What does this mean in terms of salvation? God says that water was created first in creation. When we are baptized, we go back to the beginning and become born again of water.

We also can see that when God had repented of making man upon the Earth, He decided to destroy the Earth with water. In a way bring it back to the beginning and have a “do over”

Water is very important to God in terms of creation. God is Our Father, and He formed the Earth beginning with water, which would make it our mother. God gives us the sign of water in that the woman He chose to be His mother is named Mary, which means water or sea. A sailor is often called a mariner.

Who is the angel of light? He used to be called Lucifer, we know him now as Satan. He thought he was too beautiful and dignified to ever bow down to water. God says He puts enmity between Satan and the woman, light vs water.
This fight carries over even into what we consider science. Satan wants you to think light is the origin, but we know God is the creator and He made water first. When we are baptized, we are submitted ourselves to God. We deny our lofty inferences about creation and submit to Our Lord who made water first, not light

If we free ourselves from our presupposed inferences, the observable data shows Genesis to be more scientifically sound, with the Big Bang and evolution becoming the mythical narrative

One good thing about the church I'm attending is that they have a group for atheists who want to know about God to consider his existence or, in fact, to even argue against it through 'reason, logic and science'.

One point that was made is that atheists immediately disregard and scoff at anything the Bible has to say about creation but do not give the same rigorous critique to theories regarding creation from the secular camp.

In fact, pop culture has elevated constructive and principle theories (which, by definition, are not proven) to fact and science has capitalized on this laymen ignorance by drawing attention away from the Bible and focusing only on 'peer' studies.

Within our church, many examples are provided about lead scientists, professors, researchers etc who were atheists and then, when they gave the same due diligence and attention to the Bible as they did other sources of information, converted to Christianity or became agnostic.

A perspective on Baptism and the plan of salvation that I have not heard before

God is Love

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Traditional Liturgical Christian

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