Another look at the moon landing.

Strong in Him said:

Interesting - seeing as you are very much one of those who displays their ignorance rather than doing some fact finding or making the effort to understand.

All your "evidence" is "Dean says ....", "Eric says ....", "Bart says ....", "this YouTube clip proves ......".
People have said that sunsets prove a globe earth. You don't believe them even though you can't explain how sunsets happen on a flat earth.
People have said that a ship disappears over the horizon, which demonstrates the curvature of the earth. You don't agree, though you can't explain why that should happen.
People have given you scientific explanations or told you what experts say. You, who know little science, have said that they are all wrong.

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I believe you know which responses I was referring to.

And now that you bring up "flat earth", it occurred to me the other day that time zones also pose a problem in explanation given that the earth is flat because the sun would be shining everywhere on a planar surface if it were above it. Maybe what is required is for the sun (and moon) to orbit around the plane of the earth. This suggests that the flat-earth viewpoint also requires something like the geocentric viewpoint. Yet that doesn't explain how Zooming with someone in Thailand and being told (or shown) that it is dark outside fits with an observation in Texas that the sun is shining overhead. Hmm.

Or maybe the flat earth is spinning end-to-end, around a spin axis in the plane of the earth. That does not require a geocentric solar system, but does it account for what rocket engineers know about the spin of the earth at the equator (about 1000 mph) versus the poles (0 mph)?

To believe that the earth is flat is merely a way of confessing to others that the flat-earther has not bothered to learn much about the earth (no less the universe) and its physical properties. It is a forthright confession of ignorance.

At least it can be argued that the galaxy (ours) is (mostly) flat!

DennisF said:

By the definition given of the medical establishment itself, the mRNA drugs are not vaccines. To call them vaccines is highly tenuous at best, and probably came about because anything injected from a syringe to counteract a disease can easily be called a "vaccine".

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That may be something for the medics and pharmacies to debate.
But for the average person in the street, a vaccine is something that protects against the severe symptoms of a particular illness.
Getting a flu/measles/mumps/Covid vaccination means that should the person get flu/measles/mumps/Covid, they won't get it as severely as someone who has not had the vaccination. Their body already recognises the disease and has produced antibodies.

Vaccines for Covid were discovered/produced. People were vaccinated and it saved lives.
At one point, there was panic about the MMR vaccine; people stopped getting their children vaccinated and there was an increase in cases of measles and mumps.

Strong in Him said:

All your "arguments have been "it doesn't look like ......", "I can't feel the earth rotating so it doesn't happen", "NASA are ALL lying", "I can't get my head around ......." - and most often, "this YouTube clip is evidence".
You don't believe the experts or eye witnesses; evidence is all faked, text books have lied to everyone, and there are thousands of people out there, all identified by you as "THEY" who just want to deceive everyone else.

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I know it's mostly down to laziness Zzzzzzz

Apple Sky said:

And what do you give to the table ? Zilch.

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If you mean, "what do you bring to the table?", i.e "what is your contribution to this discussion?", I've told you, several times.
i) I am a Christian and believe the Bible. The Bible does not teach flat earth; that is not it's purpose. I believe the earth is a globe and I believe in God.
ii) I am not a scientist so I cannot explain how the earth rotates, how something disappears due to the earth's curvature or anything else.
But I have no reason to distrust those who can. I did not study science at any level; why would I imply that I know more than those who have studied it at every level - O levels/GCSEs through to Masters' degrees? How can I argue against science when I don't know any to be able to argue against it? (By your own admission you don't either, which is why you rely on YouTube.)
iii) I haven't been to the moon nor landed on it - so why would I disbelieve those who have? What purpose would they have for lying?
What purpose would NASA have for trying to set up/perpetuate a hoax? Who is it going to affect, except other scientists or people from other countries?

The late John Stott said that the Bible tells us WHO created the universe; scientists tell us HOW he did it.
I agree with that. God has given us ALL things, including, to some, the ability to discover, to ask questions, to investigate/experiment. He doesn't have a problem with people studying his creation - why should you?

Strong in Him said:

That may be something for the medics and pharmacies to debate.

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I do not share your view that anything should be (uncritically) "left to the experts". There is a scene in the movie Lorentzo's Oil, based on a true-life story, where Lorenzo's parents (Augusto and Michaela Odone - real persons) had been studying for themselves what is causing the leukodystrophy (ALD) that their son has. In a meeting of parents with ALD kids, Augusto announces some positive results in adding erusic acid, from an oil, to his son's diet. Some attendees are adamant that the cure should be left to the experts to find while Augusto (an engineer, like myself) has learned the biochemistry and has a prospective solution to the problem. The group is highly divided over the matter.

I side with the Odone faction. In the end, they find a way to stop the advance of the disease and are assisted somewhat by a leading ALD expert who is also in the Washington, DC area (played expertly by actor Peter Ustanov) and who later attributes the breakthrough to the Odones.

Strong in Him said:

But for the average person in the street, a vaccine is something that protects against the severe symptoms of a particular illness.

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Yes, a vaccine; but the mRNA drugs do not meet the definition of a vaccine! - no matter how often they are referred to as such. The emperor has no clothes.

Strong in Him said:

Getting a flu/measles/mumps/Covid vaccination means that should the person get flu/measles/mumps/Covid, they won't get it as severely as someone who has not had the vaccination. Their body already recognises the disease and has produced antibodies.

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This applies to vaccines but not to genetcally-altering drugs. Please educate yourself on the topic.

Strong in Him said:

Vaccines for Covid were discovered/produced. People were vaccinated and it saved lives.

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Who told you this? CNN? MSNBC? Do some digging, please.

Strong in Him said:

At one point, there was panic about the MMR vaccine; people stopped getting their children vaccinated and there was an increase in cases of measles and mumps.

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These experimental mRNA drugs have what accumulating evidence shows are serious side-effects from the S-proteins that the altered genetics causes cells in the body to become S-protein factories to produce. I'll say no more but there is much more that can and has been said and can be found on the Internet, at places like researchgate.com and elsewhere.

It is not entirely clear that even (actual) vaccines do all that is claimed of them. (Polio is a case in point.) It is still an debated area of uncertainty. For instance, it is well-known that public sanitation that was introduced in the UK and US in the late 19th century is the dominant cause for the reduction of epidemics. See the book by Suzanne Humphreys (MD) and Roman Bystrianyk (medical historian) titled Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History, (dissolvingillusions.com) for support of this thesis.

Strong in Him said:

If you mean, "what do you bring to the table?", i.e "what is your contribution to this discussion?", I've told you, several times.
i) I am a Christian and believe the Bible. The Bible does not teach flat earth; that is not it's purpose. I believe the earth is a globe and I believe in God.
ii) I am not a scientist so I cannot explain how the earth rotates, how something disappears due to the earth's curvature or anything else.
But I have no reason to distrust those who can. I did not study science at any level; why would I imply that I know more than those who have studied it at every level - O levels/GCSEs through to Masters' degrees? How can I argue against science when I don't know any to be able to argue against it? (By your own admission you don't either, which is why you rely on YouTube.)
iii) I haven't been to the moon nor landed on it - so why would I disbelieve those who have? What purpose would they have for lying?
What purpose would NASA have for trying to set up/perpetuate a hoax? Who is it going to affect, except other scientists or people from other countries?

The late John Stott said that the Bible tells us WHO created the universe; scientists tell us HOW he did it.
I agree with that. God has given us ALL things, including, to some, the ability to discover, to ask questions, to investigate/experiment. He doesn't have a problem with people studying his creation - why should you?

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The categorization to me that is most useful regarding experts vs non-experts is that there are people - maybe 5 % to 20 % of the population - who have developed skills at doing two things:

1. dig - investigate and find factual claims and assess their veracity; and
2. think - for themselves; develop a rational mind.

People who have these skills in one area can apply them with some effort to any other area of study.

DennisF said:

These experimental mRNA drugs have what accumulating evidence shows are serious side-effects from the S-proteins that the altered genetics causes cells in the body to become S-protein factories to produce.

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This was one of the main reasons why I refused to take the Covid jab, we used to call it 'Satan's Juice'.

Strong in Him said:

He doesn't have a problem with people studying his creation - why should you?

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I don't have a problem with studying God's creation I really enjoy it as should every one, after all it is God who has made it all for us.

Apple Sky said:

I don't have a problem with studying God's creation I really enjoy it as should every one, after all it is God who has made it all for us.

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Agreed.
What d you think biologists, zoologists, astronomers etc do?

DennisF said:

I do not share your view that anything should be (uncritically) "left to the experts".

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Maybe not.
But they have studied, I have not and I don't have the knowledge to debate with them. (And when it comes to science, quite frankly, I don't want to.)

DennisF said:

There is a scene in the movie Lorentzo's Oil, based on a true-life story, where Lorenzo's parents (Augusto and Michaela Odone - real persons) had been studying for themselves what is causing the leukodystrophy (ALD) that their son has. In a meeting of parents with ALD kids, Augusto announces some positive results in adding erusic acid, from an oil, to his son's diet.

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But they had a strong motive, and interest, in researching to find the cause and possible cure of an illness.
I haven't and didn't.
Covid happened. I did not have the time, or strength, to learn chemistry and find out what drugs/substances might overcome, prevent or cure it.
Hence, trusting the experts.

DennisF said:

Yes, a vaccine; but the mRNA drugs do not meet the definition of a vaccine! - no matter how often they are referred to as such. The emperor has no clothes.

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Sorry but that is a technical difference that means nothing to me.
My only question was whether to get the vaccination or not. I was volunteering in a hospital at the time, and even though they stopped all volunteers from going in, they wouldn't even have considered having me back if I hadn't had it.
Same with the flu vaccine - it's almost compulsory; patients come first.

DennisF said:

Who told you this? CNN? MSNBC? Do some digging, please.

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I've no idea who they are; I'm in the UK.
The vaccine - or whatever you want to call it - came out. My only options were to take it, or not.
As I wanted to be allowed to volunteer - and to visit my mum in a care home - there was no discussion. I simply would not have been able to do those things had I not been vaccinated.

DennisF said:

These experimental mRNA drugs have what accumulating evidence shows are serious side-effects from the S-proteins that the altered genetics causes cells in the body to become S-protein factories to produce.

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I've seen no evidence, or suggestion, that these vaccines could alter DNA.
But it's academic anyhow. I've had 4 Covid vaccines. Not only have I not turned into a lizard, I haven't even had Covid.

Strong in Him said:

I've seen no evidence, or suggestion, that these vaccines could alter DNA.

But it's academic anyhow. I've had 4 Covid vaccines. Not only have I not turned into a lizard, I haven't even had Covid.

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I hate to be a fear monger but this article suggests that it could.

Apple Sky said:

I hate to be a fear monger but this article suggests that it could.

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If you "hate to be a fear monger", why did you post that link?

Supposing I read that article and believed it?
What do I do; go to the doctors and beg them to remove the vaccine that I had about 3 years ago? Go to the hospital and demand a blood transplant and bone marrow transfusion?
If I believed you/that article, it COULD have left me feeling very distressed over something that I can't change - and which may never happen anyhow. And how would you, personally, be able to help me with that distress/fear or whatever? You wouldn't. Your reaction may be to feel sad, but also smug that you'd never accepted a vaccine.

Fortunately, I don't believe you and have no interest in reading an artnnkyretjmnkugy. Ooops, sorry about that; it's difficult typing with these lizard's claws.

Strong in Him said:

If you "hate to be a fear monger", why did you post that link?

Supposing I read that article and believed it?
What do I do; go to the doctors and beg them to remove the vaccine that I had about 3 years ago? Go to the hospital and demand a blood transplant and bone marrow transfusion?
If I believed you/that article, it COULD have left me feeling very distressed over something that I can't change - and which may never happen anyhow. And how would you, personally, be able to help me with that distress/fear or whatever? You wouldn't. Your reaction may be to feel sad, but also smug that you'd never accepted a vaccine.

Fortunately, I don't believe you and have no interest in reading an artnnkyretjmnkugy. Ooops, sorry about that; it's difficult typing with these lizard's claws.

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Still this article proves you wrong in that the mRNA COVID-19 vaccine could have changed the DNA. hence the reason I refused to take it. And it doesn't alter the fact that many who have taken it have died.

Apple Sky said:

Still this article proves you wrong in that the mRNA COVID-19 vaccine could have changed the DNA.

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It doesn't prove anything and COULD have isn't good enough.

Apple Sky said:

And it doesn't alter the fact that many who have taken it have died.

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It doesn't alter the fact that many who had Covid and either had it before the vaccine was developed, or refused to take it, died.
It doesn't alter the fact that nurses have told stories of treating anti vaxxers who caught Covid, began to get worse and then begged to be given the vaccine that they had mocked. They didn't get it because it was too late. If they had done, and they'd still died, no doubt their supporters would have said that it was the vaccine that had killed them.
It doesn't alter the fact that, thanks to the vaccine, Covid is now no more serious than a bad cold/flu.
Nor that people like you have doubtless been protected from Covid due to herd immunity - those around you have all been vaccinated and you are benefitting from their protection.