The Law of God

DamianWarS said:

The term "Law of Moses" is a reference of utility, not of origin (in terms of who made it).

Click to expand...

I would disagree, based on what is written in Scriptures. Moses is a Prophet called by God according to the Holy Scriptures. The Word's Moses spoke were given to him "BY God", according to God, as is the case for all of the men/Prophets HE sent. In the NT, when "Moses" is mentioned, the origin was God. "Moses gave you the Law, but none of you keep the Law". Jesus was certainly pointing out the "origin" of the Law. And it was always God.

Anytime the term "Law of Moses" is used in the NT, it specifically means, or certainly implies "God's Laws", No one else. Just as anytime the term, "Law and Prophets" is used, it is describing the Holy Scriptures, or as Paul called them in Romans 1, "The Gospel of Christ". Religious man has attempted to separate God from His Prophets throughout the history of the Bible. They even twist Matt. 5 to separate Jesus from His Father who sent Him. They do this by promoting the falsehood that the "them of old time", is speaking about God and Moses, not the corrupt priests who had become "Partial in the Law", and had omitted from their mind, the weightier matters of the Law.

It's important, in my view, to be aware of the warning of the Jesus "of the bible", and not be influenced by these "many", who "come in His Name" that HE warned about.

DamianWarS said:

The NT does not refer to a terminology that can uniquely isolate the 10 commandments but when it does reference the law it often simply uses "the law". This isn't to isolate the 10 but a reference to entire Torah which includes the 10.

Click to expand...

Since you are including the entire NT in your teaching here, it seem prudent to point out some Biblical truths that my study has found.

The use of the word "the LAW" was used to describe several completely different things in the NT. It was used by Paul to describe the traditions and Commandments of men that the mainstream religions of the world God placed him in, that he and Jesus called "The Jews religion" AKA, "Pharisees", AKA, "the circumcision", were promoting.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, (Pharisees Law) blameless.

It was used to describe the temporary sacrificial system, "ADDED" to God's Law after the golden calf event, which required men to bring a goat or calf to a Levite Priest, and Kill it before the Priest would provide for the forgiveness of his sins.

Heb. 10: 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never "with those sacrifices" which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in "those sacrifices" there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when "he" cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

And again:

Gal. 3: 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The deceiver would have us believe that every time the term "the law" is used, it was referencing the entire Torah. But in these cases and more, the term "the Law" referenced the temporary sacrificial system, of an old priesthood covenant made with Levi, "After the Order of Aaron". Which was to be in place until the Prophesied Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come.

The mainstream religions of that time didn't believe Jesus was this "SEED" and were still promoting their corrupted version of these sacrificial "Works". Paul is telling them that it was never the "Works" themselves that justified a sinner, it was always God through His Son, slain from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 7-10 point this out for those who want to study it.

Heb. 8: 1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The deceiver would have us believe that this "old covenant" was the entire Torah, and not just the Ministry, or a change in the Priesthood as Jer. 31 promises. It's important to understand the purpose of God's Priest. He didn't come to abolish God's Law, HE came to fulfill the Prophesy of the New Priesthood Covenant, after a different order.

Now our sins are atoned for, apart from the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the law" (ministry of death). And God's Laws are in our own homes, in our own minds, and we are no longer required to go find a Levite Priest to "hear Moses" where the righteousness of God and the Wrath of God is revealed to us. We now sit in Moses seat.

DamianWarS said:

The NT also uses the term "The Law of Moses" which is probably why the Church uses it so often and biblically speaking it is used even as a reference to laws found in the 10 commandments. For example, John 7:23 "Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath?"

Click to expand...

It is important to understand that it was never against God's Sabbath Commandment, to help someone in need, to take a walk, to carry a backpack with food for your children, or to carry someone and their bed into the Temple for healing on God's Sabbath Day. It was against "the Law" of the Pharisees, but not the Law of God. "24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Lev. 19: 15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

DamianWarS said:

Although there are laws outside the 10 that detail sabbath requirement, for example Lev 23:3, the way Jesus uses the reference should not be seen as omitting the 10 but rather including it. In fact, all the laws in the 10 are referenced outside the 10 so there is complete overlap if you're trying to contrast the two. You may see the term as too ambiguous, but like I mentioned, the NT does not isolate the 10, and feels it is responsible enough to just say "law" or use "law of Moses".

Click to expand...

I hope you might consider what is actually written, and understand how important it is to consider "ALL" that is written, including the reference to "the law" that didn't include the 10 Commandments, or even God's Commandments.

DamianWarS said:

It does depend on how the term is being used of course. If in a diminutive sense, to rank it lower because it's "just from the man Moses" then this is something that would need to be clarified, but generally speaking, it's overly pedantic to say using "the law of Moses" to reference the 10 is irresponsible on some level. It's a misnomer at best, but misnomers are not irresponsible to use, provided the reference is clear (just try to ask for some tin foil and I guarantee what you get will not be tin at all, but aluminum). Within context, the law of Moses should be clear enough but if you think the term is being abused, then it's best to ask the intended meaning first.

Click to expand...

It would certainly make sense to be "learned of the Father" concerning His Laws. Without such knowledge, how can one even understand Paul concerning his use of the word "law"?

Studyman said:

Gal. 3: 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Click to expand...

You are mistaken about Galatians my friend. The use of the word Law here is in respect to the Book of the Law in it's entirety. For by the Law is the knowledge of sin. Take a look at the context.


Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, IF NOT THROUGH the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live out of faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] INTO Christ, that we might be justified out of faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by THE faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. see vs. 2:20
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

HIM said:

You are mistaken about Galatians my friend. The use of the word Law here is in respect to the Book of the Law in it's entirety. For by the Law is the knowledge of sin. Take a look at the context.

Click to expand...

I understand this is the founding philosophy for many of the doctrines promoted by this world's religious system. But before a man looks at the "context" of Galatians, shall they not have studied what the "Book" has said "Before" Galatians? How can a man understand Paul's message to the Galatians, if that is the only part of the Bible studied?

So my friend, please allow me to offer some Biblical Truths that I believe should be known and understood in order to understand Galatians. I will do this in a couple of posts, because this is very important stuff, in my view.

Biblical Fact #1. Abraham was blessed, according to the God of Abraham as shown in the Holy Scriptures;

Gen. 26: 5 "Because" that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God also said that HE "Knew Abraham".

Gen. 17: 19 For I know him, that "he will command his children and his household after him", and they shall keep "the way of the LORD", to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Now the Laws, Statutes, Judgments and Commandments that God gave to Abraham, would have included "Thou shall not Kill", Yes? "Thou shall not commit Adultery", Yes? Even Abimelech know of God's Law against adultery. Is there even any chance that Abraham didn't know about the Flood Noah went through? Did God destroy Sodom for not knowing about His Laws? Or for knowing about His Laws, and rejecting them? And the Ark, including the animals brought into it, both clean and unclean, is there even a chance that Abraham didn't know about these Judgments of God? Abraham had the Law of Circumcision. He knew God would provide a Sacrifice for him, other than his son.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

I would argue that HE also knew about God's Holy Sabbath sanctified a set apart by God at creation. Nevertheless, we know that Abraham was given by God, His Commandments, Statutes, Judgements and Laws, and in Abraham's old age, he left the religion of his father, and "Yielded himself" a servant to obey God. And taught Isaac and Jacob those same laws and judgments. And it was the same "God of Abraham" who appeared to Moses, and directed him to save the children of Israel in Egypt, who has lost sight of this same God's Laws, Judgments and Statutes. And HE gave them to Israel through Moses.

But this "LAW" that Paul is speaking to, that the Pharisees were promoting to the Galatians, wasn't given to Abraham or his children until 430 years after Abraham died. And Paul said this "LAW" he speaks to in Galatians, was given to Israel "Because of Transgressions". But God gave Adam and Eve His Law, before Transgressions, so that they might know what transgressions are. You said yourself that the "LAW" was to show men what sin is, which is true in my understanding as well. Paul said he would not know that coveting was a sin, unless the Law said, "thou shall not covet". But the "LAW" he speaks to in Galatians wasn't "ADDED" to give knowledge of Sin, it was "ADDED" because of Sin. That is what Paul teaches.

And Paul also says in Galatians that this "ADDED LAW" that Abraham Isaac and Jacob didn't have, was only Temporary. And was only to be in place "Till the Seed should come". I believe that the Jesus "of the Bible" is that Seed.

And because I believe each person must believe what is written of their own mind, and not just follow the teaching of other men, I would ask you a question if you are available for an open discussion of this subject. After the Golden calf, when a man transgressed God's commandments, what "LAW" were they required to follow, that their sins might be atoned for? Did Moses direct them to keep the 10 Commandments, and their sins were forgiven? Or Leviticus 19, and their sins were forgiven? Did Moses say, "if a man sins, he shall keep the Sabbath Holy, and the Levite Priest will provide for his sins to be forgiven"? Or did Moses tell them to partake of the "sacrificial works" of a temporary Priesthood Law, "After the Order of Aaron"? A Law Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not given.

Consider the implication of this philosophy you have adopted, that the 10 Commandments, God's Judgments and Statutes that all hang on the 2 greatest commandments, became obsolete when Jesus ministry began. That in the generations that followed Jesus, God's Laws which define sin, are no longer relevant.

That is not what Paul is teaching in Galatians. The "LAW" that was ADDED "because of Transgression" was a temporary cover of men's sins until the Prophesied High Priest of God, "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come. It was the Sacrificial "works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood that became old and was ready to vanish.

Not "Thou shall Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind, and thou shall Love thy neighbor as thyself, along with all that hang on, or define these Laws.

That is part 1, I will continue in another post, and then apply these Biblical truths to the scriptures you posted.

BTW, I do like how you seem to be seeking the Righteousness of God, and not just here to promote popular religious philosophies, as so many are. I do hope you will engage with me on these topics.

Studyman said:

I understand this is the founding philosophy for many of the doctrines promoted by this world's religious system.

Click to expand...

Let's refrain from statements like this. What was shown to you through me is anything but mainstream. Besides comments like this being responded to here do nothing to retain the one speaking too and have a tendency to antagonize. Will respond to the rest of your post as time sees fit God willing. Presently we have started Sabbath School so my attention is here.

HIM said:

You are mistaken about Galatians my friend. The use of the word Law here is in respect to the Book of the Law in it's entirety. For by the Law is the knowledge of sin. Take a look at the context.

Click to expand...

Biblical truth #2.

For this popular religious philosophy to be truthful, the Pharisees who were "bewitching the Galatians", would have to be trying to convince them to obey all of God's Laws, or as you put it, "the Book of the Law in it's entirety". The implication being that these Pharisees were trying to convince the Galatians to obey God's Laws, for the remission of Sins.

I would argue that Jesus Words alone would expose this teaching as false. These Pharisees were not promoting God's Laws, rather, they taught for doctrines the "Commandments of Men". They full well rejected the Commandments of God that they might walk in their own man-made religious traditions. They were, as Jesus Himself declares, "Children of the devil".

They were promoting at least a version of a "LAW" that they taught must be engaged in, before any flesh can be justified. They sold goats and turtle doves for this purpose., as was their custom shown to us in Isaiah 1.

But the implication of this world's religious system is that all the sudden, these same Pharisees who persecuted the Church of God though out the entire Law and Prophets, and killed Jesus and Stephen, were now trying to get the Galatians to obey God's Laws. This doesn't make any sense of course, and Biblically isn't true.

Please read Isaiah 1 Him. Note that here is a religion who professes to know God, who God has shown Mercy and Compassion towards them, but who choose to live in complete rebellion to His Laws, Statutes and Commandments.

Yet, every week they bring the blood of goats and calves, "as per the law" to justify their willful rebellion. This is where Paul's get's his understanding from, in my view. No flesh is justified by "Works of the Law".

Is. 1: 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

A man cannot live in disobedience to God's Laws, then be justified by the Blood of an innocent being, as per the Law. A man is justified by "Unconditional belief in God, shown by his works", or as it is also called " The Faith of Jesus" who believed in God unto death. The Gospel of Christ shows examples of His Faith through out. Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego, Gideon, Daniel, Caleb, Abraham, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, David, Rehab, the List goes on and on. These men trusted and believed in God, and "it was accounted to them as righteousness".

This was inspired to be written by the God of Abraham about Caleb:

Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and "hath followed me fully", him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

So armed with these truths, let's apply them to the Scriptures you posted.

HIM said:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works "of the law", IF NOT THROUGH "but by" the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO "in" Jesus Christ, that we might be justified "by the faith" "of Christ", and not by the "works of the law" ( a Law Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or even Israel didn't have, before the Golden calf) for by the works of the (ADDED) law shall no flesh be justified.

Click to expand...

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God", (Like HE told Abraham) and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

It was after this that God "Added" the temporary "LAW" requiring a man to bring a goat to the Levite Priest and Kill it, for his own sins.

HIM said:

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Click to expand...

If we repent, but continue to transgress God's Laws, I have gone back to "Wherein in time past we walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience". And as Paul teaches, we make ourselves transgressors again.

HIM said:

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Click to expand...

The man of sin has been judged and destroyed, that I might be renewed in the spirit of my mind, and Live unto God, as it is written:

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

HIM said:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, "but Christ liveth in me": (Like Caleb)and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith (Unconditional belief in God shown by my works) "of the Son of God", who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Click to expand...

HIM said:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by "the law", (Blood of goats and bulls) then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Click to expand...

If I am relying on the sacrificial "Works of the Law" to forgive my sins, then I can not sin because the blood of goats cannot take away sins. But I have already sinned, therefore I am completely cursed because I refused to believe in the Prophesied Redeemer, who alone can remove by sins.

HIM said:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live out of faith. (Hab. 2:4, written in the Gospel of Christ)

Click to expand...

HIM said:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] INTO Christ, that we might be justified out of faith.

Click to expand...

Yes, we have all transgressed God's Commandments, and must repent and turn to God, and bring forth works worthy of repentance, in BELIEF/FAITH that the the Jesus "of the bible" will provide for the forgiveness of our sins.

Remember, it wasn't the "10 Commandments" that led men to Christ. It was transgression of the 10 commandments that caused the necessity for justification/forgiveness. The "LAW" that foreshadowed the sacrifice of the Christ, was the Temporary "sacrificial Works" given to Israel in Lev. 4, put in place until the Seed should come.

HIM said:

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Click to expand...

After belief in the Blood of Christ for atonement has come, there is no more need of the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never had. Remember, Paul was dealing with the Promoters of the Jews religion, a religoin that full well rejected the Laws of God.

HIM said:

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by THE faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. see vs. 2:20
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Click to expand...

And Abraham seed "and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him".

Like the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "if you were Abraham's Children, you would do the "Works" of Abraham.

HIM said:

Let's refrain from statements like this. What was shown to you through me is anything but mainstream. Besides comments like this being responded to here do nothing to retain the one speaking too and have a tendency to antagonize.
Will respond to the rest of your post as time sees fit God willing. Presently we have started Sabbath School so my attention is here.

Click to expand...

The truth of God's Word offends many, I know this is personally true. But honestly, it is a popular religious philosophy in this world God placed me in, that the temporary "LAW" Paul speaks to in Galatians, that the children of the devil were trying to get the Galatians to Live By, that Abraham Isaac and Jacob didn't have, that wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, and was only ADDED "Because of Transgressions" and was only to be in effect "Till the Seed should come", was "the Book of the Law in it's entirety".

I know this philosophy to be untrue, and thought it prudent to post the reason's why, according to what is written.

I'm really surprised you took such an offence, and were so antagonized based on your signature. I'll try to take special care in the future.

"We can never learn if we think we are learnt. The greatest thing we can know is we don't know anything. At that point we can learn.

Many teach, but not many been taught."

I look forward to your response, and hope you answer my questions.

HIM said:

It is interesting that almost all, if not creation that has a body has this Circaseptan rhythm

Click to expand...

Much of human history has kept a 7 day week and cultures other than Hebrew venerated the 7th day period. Human history has developed circaseptan rhythms because of the 7 day calender which have strong influence even to biological levels. It would be near impossible to study a people group uninvolved in a 7 day week.

That aside, circaseptan rhythms can lead to only an approximation 7 day cycle but it is not exact, and even in a 7 day window it is not Sabbath calibrated. So even within the rhythm it is no where near keeping the requirments of Sabbath law.

Circaseptan rhythms are not the issue. It may lay a springboard for Sabbath law but even with a fully calibrated circaseptan rhythm we don't have enough information to land on Sabbath requirement. This is not so with any other law in the 10 commandments.

The need for rest and routine rest, even with circaseptan rhythms may be innate but this is not enough to establish innate Sabbath law. The law of gravity or entropy (described within the second law of thermodynamics) exists without it being written down or without understanding it. This can be said too for circaseptan rhythms but the difference is after the law of gravity or thermodynamics was written down nothing changed. The laws did not govern the actions they just described them.

The 4th commandment however is dictating action that although may be analogous to circaseptan rhythms, it does not demand it. The 4th is also too specific for it to be innately discoverable even under a circaseptan context. At best what you have is a value of rest happening within a 7 day cycle that is innate but in reality what you got is an observed biological phenomenon that can modify our behaviour (that may or may not look like rest) in an approximate 7 day period. Both of which have a ways to go before considered keeping the 4th.

I don't deny our need for rest even on a circaseptan level, but the more important value is our need for spiritual rest which does not follow a circaseptan rhythm, rather is continuous and that's more the value I see as important. The 4th is a once-a-week instruction but it points to an every moment need. The 4th is an extra layer of instruction that goes beyond natural laws (moral or biological) but I think that is intentional. Our spiritual need is innate too, yet we still need to be told about Christ and the telling part is woven into our faith.

The Sabbath in this case is like an answer to the void and darkness we all experience (as Christ is the answer to the darkness in us), this also happens to be the message within creation (light spoken into darkness ending in completion). We know this need naturally but we don't always know how to answer it, unlike knowing that murding and stealing is wrong without having to be told it first. Sabbath is different, it needs to be evangelized to keep it and know it's benefits. I think that's part of it's mesaage as it ultimately points to Christ who we are instructed to tell others. Although the need for Christ is innate there still is an aspect of hearing the good news that's a part of salvation. I can't comment on those who don't hear, only that my job is to be a part of the telling others

The purpose was to find innate objective morality in the Sabbath law. You've pointed to an inexact natural 7 day period to show this. I would call that lacking enough evidence to show what we read in the 4th commandment is something we can naturally discover. The rest of the 9 commandments are fine and I have no issue with their naturally discoverability, the 4th however requires the instructions to be told in order to know and follow it.

It should be easy enough to find some ignorant to the specifics of the the 4th commandment (which in itself tells you something). Go ahead and ask them what they think our innate natural resting rhythms are and see how well it aligns to the 4th commandment. (While you're doing that use it as a segue to tell them about the ultimate rest Christ gives us)

Studyman said:

I would disagree, based on what is written in Scriptures. Moses is a Prophet called by God according to the Holy Scriptures. The Word's Moses spoke were given to him "BY God", according to God, as is the case for all of the men/Prophets HE sent. In the NT, when "Moses" is mentioned, the origin was God. "Moses gave you the Law, but none of you keep the Law". Jesus was certainly pointing out the "origin" of the Law. And it was always God.

Click to expand...

Hense why I called it a reference of utility not origin. The origin is of God through Moses. The origin of the 10 may have been more direct but the rest of Torah should be considered no less from God or have no less authority and both are from God. The 10 however are a part of Torah and should not be treated as a separate thing.

Studyman said:

The deceiver would have us believe that every time the term "the law" is used, it was referencing the entire Torah.

Click to expand...

I never made those claims. The term is ambiguous and may reference different things. My point is the NT does not isolate the 10 commandments from the rest of law and when it references Torah it does not do so to isolate parts of it. A classic example that is often quoted is Mat 5:17-20. I've often seen it used in a 10 vacuum, yet the context is very clearly "all the law and the prophets". Yet the 10 are fixed because of this passage but not circumcision? It is grossly irresponsible to treat circumcision, the sacrafical system, separating laws, etc... differently than the 10 because of this passage.

Studyman said:

It is important to understand that it was never against God's Sabbath Commandment, to help someone in need, to take a walk, to carry a backpack with food for your children, or to carry someone and their bed into the Temple for healing on God's Sabbath Day. It was against "the Law" of the Pharisees,

Click to expand...

Indeed, also something I never said. Christ tells us that it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Mt 12:12) showing that as we approach lawful Sabbath action we must always view goodness as lawful. His example is rescuing sheep from pits (v11) so is he really talking about sheep? Or is he talking about people? Goodness (of God) is not something that changes on one day over another and we should approach our duty for goodness not merely as an exception but a primary motivator to our Sabbath action. But the thing is, should it not be our primary motivater in all our actions all the time?

The 4th shows us that even animals have rest, but the thing with work animals is they have no authority to rest and they cannot take it for themselves, they must be given it, and not just by anybody but by one with authority. This is a powerful salvation metaphor and it is this message we should be putting more focus on.

DamianWarS said:

the 7th day period. Human history has developed circaseptan rhythms because of the 7 day calender

Click to expand...

No it is genetic

Studyman said:

For this popular religious philosophy to be truthful, the Pharisees

Click to expand...

I received nothing from anyone's philosophy

Studyman said:

The truth of God's Word offends many

Click to expand...

No offense taken. I just am not going to spend time on any who think it is okay to make comments like above. Which would include, comments like, "the truth of God offends many"

It just shows arrogance and one's mind is made up and their no changing it.

It is actually a bigger issue than almost anything else.

HIM said:

No it is genetic

Click to expand...

Circaseptan rhythms may be influenced by circaseptan routines (like a 7 day week with sat/sun as a cultural rest) it may also be influenced by lunar activity which is not exactly 7 days and may be independent of these influences too. But it doesn't matter circaseptan rhythms don't land on 4th commandment rule.