All of the above of course being subject to the word of God as over and above any of the positions of authority mentioned by Paul. This is the key to the issue at hand.
Apart from that stated regarding the submission of wives to their husbands, which had been established immediately after the fall by God himself.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Yes I agree. Nothing could be done without being qualified by Gods word and Christs teachings. When Paul commands the members or rebukes them for not following his teachings he is not talking about his own made up teachings. But that which he consistently taught over and over of Christs teachings.
When Paul says "we appeal to you" to be reconciled to God. He and the disciples are appealing on Christs behalf as ambassadord. Its not their own authority but an authority they are standing on which is Christs. Which was given to them by Christ.
Without this they are nothing and in fact as you say teaching a flase doctrine of promoting self. The disciples were to be servants to Christs ministry and not create some new earthly one.
All churches have certain chosen leaders, which is of course necessary, which I do not contest. I do however strongly disagree with your last statement above, which is the main cause of our different views no doubt.
I am not sure which you are referring to. Do you mean when I said that the idea of submission to others, and authority would be seen as abuse and control over others today. If so I am meaning the authority that was given by God and Christ to those authorities.
Even as Peter says 'obey authorities as these have been instituted by God as He wants all to be saved'. Or the Elders that were appointed over the church.
Our Lord and Savior, His chosen Apostles, and the prophets all warned of future immense and powerful organizations that would usurp the power and authority which belongs to God alone. Who would be followed by the greater majority of humanity unto persecution of God's authentic followers as has been experienced by God's people and Christ Himself on this earth throughout its history. True and false worship of God and the persecution of those of the former by the latter, began and has continued throughout the entire history of this fallen planet. The majority of even professed believers, have most often been believers in profession only.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Both Cain and Abel professed belief in, and brought their sacrifices before the Lord. Only one though, brought the sacrifice which God required according to the obedience of faith in the Lamb of God alone. Cain's refusal to do so in thinking that the best he had to offer was a better sacrifice than the one the Lord commanded, created enmity between these two professed believers. Which resulted as always, in the persecution of the authentic believer, by the one who merely professed belief while denying the actual authority of God. And so it has been since that time, and will be unto the end. The authentic believer will never be found persecuting those who disagree of differ from themselves, as it is most obvious our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ disapproves of such.
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
In a way Abel was the first persecuted Godly man being killed for his belief. From that there has grown a persecution against those who believed and obeyed God.
Yes many false prophets and teachings will come and are coming and especially today with the watering down of Gods word within a relativist postmodern world.
But isn't that all the more reason why we must have some sort of authority that can stand up in amonst all these false ideas that can even fool the elect to state clearly what is truth over what is false. A voice that represents Gods word and Christs truth in the teachings.
First it was the eye witnesses who presented this new teachings and testimony. They said they were telling the truth and were to be believed. They were ambassadors for Christ and were to be believed over those who promoted false doctrines and division.
Paul said any doctrine that does not conform to what he had taught or what the disciples taught was accursed. He even commanded those who did not follow to follow or be disassociated with Christ and the church. Get them out and have nothing to do with them.
So there needs to be this authority that can stand up to the wolves and protect the teachings and truth. But as you say the qualification is that the disciples and overseers were acting on Christs behalf. They were specially appointed with that authority from Christ. As opposed to someone without such qualification who may teach a false doctrine.
So I am not saying Paul or the disciples or any overseer with that responsibility is saying follow a humans authority such as in the name of Paul or Peter. BUt in the name of Christ and His teachings given to the church.
It is for the above reasons, that I see a danger in the claims and wording we are discussing. Which very real dangers have in fact already played themselves out several times over throughout history in large scale persecutions of bible believing Christians by other professed bible believing "Christians". And what claim and or terms are we discussing, but that certain individuals should be looked upon as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and or God himself? The very claim and issue addressed by Paul himself in the scriptures above.
Yes the wording is important which is Gods word. The problem I see is that due to modern ideas these words have become weakened and conflated with double meanings. It is the meaning that is being fixated on as the reality itself rather than the actual lived reality.
In Pauls day the idea of authority in the name of Christ was not an issue and people understood that this was a servant like authority given by God and not man. But today that has been twisted to mean controlling others. The reality is there is authority over GOds people and the world hates this as they don't want to be subject to any authority. Especially in the name of God.
But when Paul or an overseer stood on that authority in commanding the church or in getting out of the church false ideas. THis was the only way to stop this within the church. Just like an organisation has the authority of a truth principle and not an individual that allowing false teachings and practices will undermine the organisation. This is GOds truth in reality. He is a God or order and not chaos as well.
Without this authority in the name of God there would be chaos as then there is no authority the church can call on that is greater than man. Then all claims of truth become claims of man even Christs truth as it has been relegated to mans authority. The lay have just as much authority and the gates are open for anyone to claim that authority.
Therefore do I see and determine the danger in an increased call for a supposed laity, viewing their supposed clergy, as though they were God themselves. Which again, none of the apostles ever asked anyone to do regarding themselves, but which our Lord and they all warned against. The very problem of which, being already played out several times throughout the course of history, has been confirmed exactly by such to date. None of which nevertheless, have reached the biblically prophetic global proportions which the books Daniel and Revelation foretell.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
The problem is the words sound very similar to promoting human authority and Christs authority. Or to the modern ear it sounds like promoting human authority. But this is exactly the twisting of truth through the reengineering of culture and meanings so that even words carry a different meaning.
Words like authority and submission or ruler because negative meanings so even just the mention are seen as human made ideas of control. BUt this is a modern mindset and in the early church this did not even enter their minds as any form of abuse or control.
The key is Paul and others qualify that authority in Christ and Gods word. Paul teaches, reproves, rebukes and even commands others not in his name but Christs. But to some this may be seen as promoting himself and saying the lay must follow him.
But Paul was standing on GOds word and Christ truth. This qualification was seen by the lay who were also within GOds word and Christs truth. So they did not see this as an abusive comand or control or promoting Paul. BUt promoting Christ. Paul said the church was his reference because they recognised this in him. He lived the teachings.
I certainly agree that the scriptures are the final word and authority regarding all issues. I also agree that churches need structural authority and discipline. I do not think that there should be only one recognized man or institution of authority apart from Christ and His Word, over and above the many different denominations of this day or any other.
I am not sure what you mean by one man. But as for the special authority given by Christ to the disciples and then overseers like Timothy, Titus and Clement I think this is needed for the very reasons you gave above in combating false ideas from the church.
The qualification of an overseer was to be above reproach and a wise and experienced teacher who could reprove and even rebuke others. But this does not mean they are above reproach in also being rebuked. Paul an overseer can be rebuked if two or more lay have a charge against him.
The reason for two or more as he also realised that there were false accusations. But all this speaks of qualifying a truth and authority in CHrists name to protect against the wolves.
I do think that all authentic Christians in any case, need to be tolerant of the differing views of others, and other professed Christians especially. Trying to mold all of Christianity into one fashion, under the authority of one mere man and or human institution, has proved to be very dangerous.
But this just undoes all the words of the teachings in not tolerating all sorts of doctrines and teachings. This seems to just muddy the waters between what is truth and what is false.
Where is the line drawn as to when people cross it and are promoting a view contradictory to Christs teachings. How do we determine that line without some authority that is called upon which is above human views.
In doing so are we not then applying that authority over alternative views. Who applies that authority. What stops anyone challenging that authority with human authority and then usurping Chjrists authority and giving no legs for the church to stand on.
I think the idea that we should accept all sorts of views to be inclusive is itself the manipulation of the wolves so that it weakens the authority Christ installed in His church through the overseers. Now anyone can be an overseer and give Ted Talks about how to be saved.
