I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

BelieveItOarKnot said:

The adversary reacts adversely and can do no other. An anti spiritual robot if you prefer

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God created his opposite ... ?

Aseyesee said:

Reasoning with God has the same outcome ...

No matter if you believe one way or the other, without God there would have been no devil ...

Do you believe God was surprised at the outcome of having created man on the earth (like God coming down to see if what he heard was true Gen18:21), or was this said for our sake? an Adam "Where art thou" ...

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That is speculation of which we have no clear answer, yet if we maintain the humility given us by Christ, we can say God was not surprised, as how can an omniscient, omnipotent being be surprised by anything He does?

The question then becomes why did He do it?

The best answer I have found is free will, which results in love. Love is not love unless it is free

God laments in scripture, with their lips my people praise me, but their hearts are far from me. We can conclude in this that God does not want compulsory slaves to do good works of which He has no need. He wants those that love Him and are men after His own heart, like David.
God is also willing to forego quantity to have better quality

We see when John the Baptists rebuked the Pharisees saying in Matthew 3

1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. 2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by Isaias the prophet, saying: A voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths. 4 And the same John had his garment of camels' hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins: and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea, and all the country about Jordan:
6 And were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire. 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

If God just wants a large quantity of humans to praise Him, John says He could make them out of the stones. Jesus tells us He is looking for the few. Many are called, few are chosen
Luke13

23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

26 Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you are. yourselves thrust out. 29 And there shall come from the east and the west, and the north and the south; and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, they are last that shall be first; and they are first that shall be last.


This causes us to ponder and contemplate. God does not need good works nor is willing to pay to have them done, yet the just will do good works.
Works are outward appearance and do not have to come from the heart, yet a good heart will produce them.
Some speculate that God does not need good works, so why bother? I’ll just praise Jesus and He will welcome me into the kingdom. Scripture says that is not true
Others say I will repent as much as humanly possible and strive for holiness such has been not seen in any other man, then God will love me and bring me to His kingdom above others. That too is in error

The first is in error because God does not need good works, yet He has no desire for evil
The second is in error because it ignores the desires of Jesus’ sacred heart, who desires all men to come to repentance and have life

We only know the heart of God if we ask Him. As scripture says if anyone lacks anything let him ask God James 1

2 My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations 3 Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience 4 And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing 5 But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men abundantly, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him

We can conclude from this that God does not desire good works in themselves, rather He desires the just to desire good works. He does not want the outward appearance of the Pharisees, but the inner heart of King David

We can also gain insight into God’s heart by examining Moses
Exodus 32

7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst shew them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt. 9 And again the Lord said to Moses: See that this people is stiffnecked: 10 Let me alone, that my wrath may be kindled against them, and that I may destroy them, and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, saying: Why, O Lord, is thy indignation kindled against thy people, whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Let not the Egyptians say, I beseech thee: He craftily brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains, and destroy them from the earth: let thy anger cease, and be appeased upon the wickedness of thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thy own self, saying: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven: and this whole land that I have spoken of, I will give to your seed, and you shall possess it for ever. 14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people

If we are to be truly righteous, we do not desire righteousness to exalt ourselves above others. We desire holiness so that we may serve others, and be as Paul, I have become all things to all people so that I may by all means save some

You are a worthy opponent, and that is good, as God tells us to love our enemies. Your challenge to my thoughts have caused me to dive deeper into God’s word. I know this post seems to ramble on but for me, it was a refreshing exercise, and I thank you for inducing me to it

God bless you.

boughtwithaprice said:

Your challenge to my thoughts have caused me to dive deeper into God’s word. I know this post seems to ramble on but for me, it was a refreshing exercise, and I thank you for inducing me to it

God bless you.

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That my friend, is my only goal ...

BelieveItOarKnot said:

take no thought

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Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

BelieveItOarKnot said:

IF Peter, then in your position Peter was essentially, Satan

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Satan means adversarial to the will of God, so yes., Peter was adversarial, or he wouldn't have said 'for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men' to Peter the man. He wouldn't have said that to an outside force. Peter was no different than the rest of us when we put our will ahead of the will of the Father.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

There is an adversary that is not the person. And none of us stop that adversary from doing what it does

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Agreed and we work in league with it, especially what the Hebrew people called the Tempter. But the bottom line is we all, rebellious elohim and man alike, follow the adversarial spirit which is a will other than the will of the Father. That adversarial will in both elohim and man alike, is what God seeks to get under control.

timothyu said:

Agreed and we work in league with it, especially what the Hebrew people called the Tempter. But the bottom line is we all, rebellious elohim and man alike, follow the adversarial spirit which is a will other than the will of the Father. That adversarial will in both elohim and man alike, is what God seeks to get under control.

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Scripture presents mankind as captive, not collaborator

honey badger said:

Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

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There are enemies, adversaries and adverse powers unseen presented in great detail in scripture

Where things get interesting is understanding these operations in our own sorry hides, necessitating taking every thought captive

Lying hypocrisy merely shows captivity

Ignorance seems to be bliss

BelieveItOarKnot said:

There are enemies, adversaries and adverse powers unseen presented in great detail in scripture

Where things get interesting is understanding these operations in our own sorry hides, necessitating taking every thought captive

Lying hypocrisy merely shows captivity

Ignorance seems to be bliss

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You said a couple of things worth discussing

You say we are captive and not collaborators, that is true as scripture says anyone that sins is a slave to sin. Romans 6 gets interesting some translations say when you were slaves to sin you were free from obligation to do good. That sounds like we would not be punished, but it rather reflected our inability to be obligated to righteousness because of our slavery to sin.

Jesus sets us free from this bondage if we wish it, or rather use our free will to choose Him. When we give ourselves freely to Christ, we become slaves of righteousness. Our old man passes away and all things become new.

We cannot do good works to earn God’s favor; He does not need our help. We need His. When we offer ourselves to God, He hears us and takes away our slavery to sin and makes us slaves of righteousness and we do good works. If we lack strength, we just need ask God who gives liberally to all who ask.

The devil or the adversaries are crafty, so they mix truth with lies in order to deceive. They say hey you can’t be saved by works(truth ), so don’t do them. If works cannot save you then it does not matter if you sin or do right, just believe and you will be fine. (Lie)

This deception fools souls into thinking that they are “saved” while they remain slaves to sin. Scripture says God has prepared for us good works that we should walk in them

We lack ability to do good of our own, but God grants us free will to choose whom we will serve.
When we are born again we are set free from our obligation to sin and our conscience becomes slave to righteousness. It does not matter the magnitude of our work, the smallest thing done gives glory to God, for He says if we are faithful in little, we will been given greater things to do, remember the woman with two pennies.
As we walk in good works, we learn from them, and learn of God. The basics are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. We do not do these things to boast, but to undergo training in righteousness
You will find, that the more you learn in good works, the more service you do, and the more joy you get from service. We do not seek honor, for what good is honor is those around us perish and their death causes grief in Our Lord?

God gives us joy in service, or we can listen to Satan who says works can’t save you don’t do them, and persecute everyone that tries to encourage you to do them

Be not deceived. Jesus calls us to work, but His yoke is easy and His burden light

Aseyesee said:

Does God control this adversary in us, or is he free to do as he will?

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All spirits are subject to God. Their hearts are far from Him, but they are bound to behave with obedience. The only power they have over humans to tempt or what ever the person gives them

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Scripture presents mankind as captive, not collaborator

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Unable to collaborate with the Father because we have imprisoned ourselves in self-interest, shutting the door to His Will

timothyu said:

Unable to collaborate with the Father because we have imprisoned ourselves in self-interest, shutting the door to His Will

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Only if we remain in ourselves. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross

We will know the truth and the truth will set us free

boughtwithaprice said:

Only if we remain in ourselves. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross

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Exactly. Jesus' two commandments. Put the Father's will ahead of our own which is love all as self, thus acting in servitude to Him and each other in need.

boughtwithaprice said:

All spirits are subject to God. Their hearts are far from Him, but they are bound to behave with obedience. The only power they have over humans to tempt or what ever the person gives them

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A thought functions in much the same way ... as the old adage says ... you can't stop a bird from flying over your head, but you can stop him from building a nest in your hair ...

BelieveItOarKnot said:

There are enemies, adversaries and adverse powers unseen presented in great detail in scripture

Where things get interesting is understanding these operations in our own sorry hides, necessitating taking every thought captive

Lying hypocrisy merely shows captivity

Ignorance seems to be bliss

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who exactly are these ignorant lying hypocrites you constantly refer to ... asking because the way in which you say these things i don't know if you are aiming this at me ...

as for myself i no longer judge His firstborn ....

honey badger said:

who exactly are these ignorant lying hypocrites you constantly refer to ... asking because the way in which you say these things i don't know if you are aiming this at me ...

as for myself i no longer judge His firstborn ....

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The spirits of disobedience that ALL are bound to in the flesh, those are the automatic lying hypocrites who deny their hiding place in people.

You'd have to be blind not to hear them and see their works. Or perceive them in your own thoughts

No person is required to be judged in that process, but they are judged

BelieveItOarKnot said:

The spirits of disobedience that ALL are bound to in the flesh, those are the automatic lying hypocrites who deny their hiding place in people.

You'd have to be blind not to hear them and see their works. Or perceive them in your own thoughts

No person is required to be judged in that process, but they are judged

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so your saying that there are automotive entities completely separate from us that then enter us and take over our minds and these are judged ...


so by your theory these entities which are made to deceive get judged ... so by this line of thought the better they deceive the more reward they shall receive when judged ....

honey badger said:

so your saying that there are automotive entities completely separate from us that then enter us and take over our minds and these are judged ...

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Mark 4:15 is real for everyone

All have (present tense) sin and sin is of the devil

Jesus openly exposed these unseen bad actors in mankind. Aroused them by His Presence. Spoke to them. Even commanded them. Condemned them

How is it you can't see this?

honey badger said:

so by your theory these entities which are made to deceive get judged ... so by this line of thought the better they deceive the more reward they shall receive when judged ....

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I'd consider the LoF to be an anti heaven for anti Christ spirits

timothyu said:

Unable to collaborate with the Father because we have imprisoned ourselves in self-interest, shutting the door to His Will

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You're very fond of counting sins against people and ignoring the cause

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Mark 4:15 is real for everyone

All have (present tense) sin and sin is of the devil

Jesus openly exposed these unseen bad actors in mankind. Aroused them by His Presence. Spoke to them. Even commanded them. Condemned them

How is it you can't see this?

I'd consider the LoF to be an anti heaven for anti Christ spirits

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BelieveItOarKnot said:

Mark 4:15 is real for everyone

All have (present tense) sin and sin is of the devil

Jesus openly exposed these unseen bad actors in mankind. Aroused them by His Presence. Spoke to them. Even commanded them. Condemned them

How is it you can't see this?

I'd consider the LoF to be an anti heaven for anti Christ spirits

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i think where you are going astray in your thinking is because you do not know the difference or rather the different roles between our soul and our spirit and that in truth they be not separate, but for the sake of being raised up to see as He sees we appear so in the hear and now ...