Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

caffeinated.hermit · Monday at 3:08 PM

durangodawood said:
Of course it does! Look at what trans people have to content with in this world. Its no wonder theyre having a harder time of it that non trans people.

What I completely reject is that "solving" trans people is going to solve the school (and other) shooting issue. If we locked up all the trans people forever, gun violence in the USA would still feel just as bad as it does now.

Do you believe that transgender people having to "contend" with the stresses of passing, rejection, or bullying justifies their undertaking mass shootings? And should people who are not transgender have to accept the homicidal rage and depression of some transgender people simply because their lives can be difficult?

Does this pattern not seem to indicate that transgender people can also be a danger to others, as well as be victims? Modern transgender ideology posits that your thoughts and feeling dictate your biological sex, and that it is possible to be or become the opposite sex simply through self-identity or through a regimen of hormones and surgery.

While some people are happy with the result, pass well, and stay happy, others are less happy over time. Some de-transition, others do not. The Annunciation shooter expressed regret with taking on the transgender label and annoyance / grief over not passing and not having a feminine face. This is extremely concerning.... perhaps already vulnerable people are being promised something that is not possible, perhaps cross-sex hormones increase aggression, or perhaps the mental health issues that many of these people come to the table with are being swept under the rug with the assumption that "transition" will help fix everything.

seeking.IAM · Monday at 3:22 PM

rjs330 said:
Oops, should not allow anyone with a mental health disorder to have access to guns.

Fair enough. But how do we screen for mental health problems before gun purchases? The honor system: a question on a form? Identification is the problem.

durangodawood · Monday at 3:24 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
Do you believe that transgender people having to "contend" with the stresses of passing, rejection, or bullying justifies their undertaking mass shootings? And should people who are not transgender have to accept the homicidal rage and depression of some transgender people simply because their lives can be difficult?

Where in the world would you get that idea? Youre acting like I made an explanation into an excuse - which I did not do.

I mean, people on all side of the gun violence issue - but especially the pro gun people - have been going on and on about how we need to deal with "the mental health issue". So, say we do that and learn some of the things that are causing mental illness, does let shooters off the hook? Thats what your line of reasoning seem to suggest: that understanding mental illness means excusing the bad consequences of it - or at least that Im thinking that. I dont think I proposed that tho.

Desk trauma · Monday at 3:48 PM

durangodawood said:
I mean, people on all side of the gun violence issue - but especially the pro gun people - have been going on and on about how we need to deal with "the mental health issue"

It’s just empty rhetoric.

caffeinated.hermit · Monday at 4:48 PM

durangodawood said:
Where in the world would you get that idea? Youre acting like I made an explanation into an excuse - which I did not do.

I mean, people on all side of the gun violence issue - but especially the pro gun people - have been going on and on about how we need to deal with "the mental health issue". So, say we do that and learn some of the things that are causing mental illness, does let shooters off the hook? Thats what your line of reasoning seem to suggest: that understanding mental illness means excusing the bad consequences of it - or at least that Im thinking that. I dont think I proposed that tho.

The post you quoted was a response to someone asking if transgender people are more likely to commit mass shootings. The answer appears to be maybe if not likely.

Yes, transgender people have a lot to contend with. That should never excuse violence against people who have nothing to do with their transition and who do not even know them. Objectively, they have a lot to contend with because they are struggling to live up to the assumption that they should change sex, can change sex, and that living as the opposite sex will bring long-term happiness.

These people are also more likely to struggle with depression, anxiety, borderline personality disorder, post-traumatic stress, and anger issues than the general population. That is my focus. Stricter gun control laws are another, valid focus.

RileyG · Monday at 4:50 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
The post you quoted was a response to someone asking if transgender people are more likely to commit mass shootings. The answer appears to be maybe if not likely.

Yes, transgender people have a lot to contend with. That should never excuse violence against people who have nothing to do with their transition and who do not even know them. Objectively, they have a lot to content with because they are struggling to live up to the assumption that they should change sex, can change sex, and that living as the opposite sex will bring long-term happiness.

These people are also more likely to struggle with depression, anxiety, borderline personality disorder, post-traumatic stress, and anger issues than the general population. That is my focus. Stricter gun control laws are another, valid focus.

THIS! I agree completely.

Also, many people with persistent mental health issues tend to be VICTIMS of brutal violence rather than perpetuators.

JosephZ · Monday at 5:00 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
The post you quoted was a response to someone asking if transgender people are more likely to commit mass shootings. The answer appears to be maybe if not likely.

There's no maybe about it, transgender people are not more likely to commit mass shootings.

RileyG · Monday at 5:01 PM

JosephZ said:
There's no maybe about it, transgender people are not more likely to commit mass shootings.

....because they are a very, very small minority. I'd be more worried about white, heterosexual men committing mass shootings than a sexual minority.....

JosephZ · Monday at 5:10 PM

RileyG said:
....because they are a very, very small minority.

It's not only that they are a very small minority, they have actually been found to be under-represented as was pointed out in this post #196. Data from several sources has proven that transgenders are far less likely to commit mass shootings than the general population.

RileyG · Monday at 5:12 PM

JosephZ said:
It's not only that they are a very small minority, they have actually been found to be under-represented as was pointed out in this post #196. Data from several sources has proven that transgenders are far less likely to commit mass shootings than the general population.

I don’t find that surprising at all. They’re victims of violence, usually.

RocksInMyHead · Monday at 5:28 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
The post you quoted was a response to someone asking if transgender people are more likely to commit mass shootings. The answer appears to be maybe if not likely.

The answer appears to be "no" - you produced 4 examples over 7 years. In that time period (September 1, 2018 to September 1, 2025), there have been 3908 mass shootings (as categorized on a site provided by another user in this thread when we discussed the same question: Gun Violence Archive). 4/3908 = 0.001, or 0.1%.

Considering that we estimate that between 1 and 2% of the population identifies as transgender, that's a whole order of magnitude of difference. You'd need to cite more than 40 examples of mass shootings committed by transgender people to suggest that they might be more likely than the rest of the population to commit mass shootings

caffeinated.hermit · Monday at 5:59 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
The answer appears to be "no" - you produced 4 examples over 7 years. In that time period (September 1, 2018 to September 1, 2025), there have been 3908 mass shootings (as categorized on a site provided by another user in this thread when we discussed the same question: Gun Violence Archive). 4/3908 = 0.001, or 0.1%.

Considering that we estimate that between 1 and 2% of the population identifies as transgender, that's a whole order of magnitude of difference. You'd need to cite more than 40 examples of mass shootings committed by transgender people to suggest that they might be more likely than the rest of the population to commit mass shootings

I am not counting gang-related drive-bys as mass shootings, though many do. I am referring to lone-wolf shootings, especially those that target schools. Something like Columbine.

I posted here, covering some incidents that did involve transgender shooters or would-be shooters. 4 examples over 7 years, with more examples for planned or threatened attacks that did not take place, is still worrying. Are transgender people more likely to carry out or plan these attacks than non-transgender people?

Again, maybe, if not likely. The question is, why? Bullying? Depression? The Annunciation shooter mentioned frustration with his transition. This is the second time in a few years that a transgender person has targeted children in a Christian school. I know many people do not want to see a pattern here, but I do.

Belk · Monday at 6:05 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
I am not counting gang-related drive-bys as mass shootings, though many do. I am referring to lone-wolf shootings, especially those that target schools. Something like Columbine.

I posted here, covering some incidents that did involve transgender shooters or would-be shooters. 4 examples over 7 years, with more examples for planned or threatened attacks that did not take place, is still worrying. Are transgender people more likely to carry out or plan these attacks than non-transgender people?

Again, maybe, if not likely. The question is, why? Bullying? Depression? The Annunciation shooter mentioned frustration with his transition. This is the second time in a few years that a transgender person has targeted children in a Christian school. I know many people do not want to see a pattern here, but I do.

Maybe if not likely based on what? It looks like you are basing this purely off anecdotal data instead of any sort of systematic research.

caffeinated.hermit · Monday at 6:22 PM

Belk said:
Maybe if not likely based on what? It looks like you are basing this purely off anecdotal data instead of any sort of systematic research.

Data is what research is composed of, Sir.

Again, the transgender community has far higher rates of mental health issues than the non-transgender population, and anti-Christian rhetoric is not uncommon on online transgender spaces (I have been there. It's unsettling).

I can understand not wanting to point fingers at an already misunderstood community. But... If we are going to talk about gun control and SSRI drugs (which we should and need to do), we must also realize when certain communities seem uniquely vulnerable to radicalization, violence, and severe mental health issues.

RocksInMyHead · Monday at 6:53 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
I am not counting gang-related drive-bys as mass shootings, though many do. I am referring to lone-wolf shootings, especially those that target schools. Something like Columbine.

Okay, how many of those have happened in the past 7 years?

caffeinated.hermit said:
I posted here, covering some incidents that did involve transgender shooters or would-be shooters. 4 examples over 7 years, with more examples for planned or threatened attacks that did not take place, is still worrying. Are transgender people more likely to carry out or plan these attacks than non-transgender people?

I know you made that post - I referenced it in mine. And again, the data says no, transgender people are not more likely to commit mass shootings than non-transgender people. There's a better case to be made for them being more likely to commit school shootings (44 of those in the past 7 years, three of them with at least one trans perpetrator), but then:

caffeinated.hermit said:
The question is, why? Bullying? Depression?

Considering that bullying is a common trigger for school shootings, that seems like it could probably be a contributing factor. Especially when you consider that trans kids are more likely to be bullied (and at least one of the three trans school shooters explicitly cited his bullying as a motivating factor). Double that for Christian schools, where even the adults will tell a trans kid that they're an abomination. Depression doesn't generally lead to mass shootings; considering that it's largely associated with feelings of self-loathing, depression is more closely correlated with suicide than murder.

caffeinated.hermit said:
This is the second time in a few years that a transgender person has targeted children in a Christian school. I know many people do not want to see a pattern here, but I do.

Sure, two points make a line. Not much of a pattern though. That said, given the rhetoric that Christians spew about trans people (you don't have to look far - there's plenty of it here on CF), I can see why some trans people might have serious issues with Christianity. That doesn't justify them killing people, but I can understand why they might feel that way, when pretty much an entire religion hates them just for existing.

RocksInMyHead · Monday at 6:57 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
I can understand not wanting to point fingers at an already misunderstood community. But... If we are going to talk about gun control and SSRI drugs (which we should and need to do), we must also realize when certain communities seem uniquely vulnerable to radicalization, violence, and severe mental health issues.

And, once we realize that, we should ask ourselves why. Are vulnerability to radicalization, violence, and severe mental health issues inherent properties of transgenderism, or are they tied to isolation, ostracization, and vitriol and hatred being spewed at them from all sectors of society? Like, if we just treated trans people like people, would they have so many struggles?

rjs330 · Monday at 7:42 PM

JosephZ said:
There is no acceptible rate, but it's unrealistic to expect stronger gun laws to be a cure for all gun violence.

Why not? It works in the EU. England's gin deaths are next to nothing. Bexauae people really are not allowed to have guns. Even the cops dont have them.

caffeinated.hermit · Monday at 7:49 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
And, once we realize that, we should ask ourselves why. Are vulnerability to radicalization, violence, and severe mental health issues inherent properties of transgenderism, or are they tied to isolation, ostracization, and vitriol and hatred being spewed at them from all sectors of society? Like, if we just treated trans people like people, would they have so many struggles?

The answer is likely "both". It is also true that transgender people report far higher rates of childhood sexual abuse and pre-existing mental health issues before they seek help with their transition and before they come out as transgender.

Trying to become the opposite sex presents some very, very complex emotional, social, and medical challenges. Some of those challenges may resolve after transition, but others may not.

Robin Westwood reported dissatisfaction with his transition, and wished that he had never "brainwashed himself". Again, when a specific community seems especially vulnerable to depression, anxiety, desperation, and violence, especially when they're trying to do something as complex (and impossible) as literally become the opposite sex, we should pay attention.

RocksInMyHead · Monday at 7:55 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
Again, when a specific community seems especially vulnerable to depression, anxiety, desperation, and violence, especially when they're trying to do something as complex (and impossible) as literally become the opposite sex, we should pay attention.

Of course. And we should listen to them, address their issues, and treat them like human beings - not tell them they are liars, claim they're faking it for attention, call them perverts and abominations, and ostracize them from society.

Generally speaking, if you take a concern that someone expresses to you and dismiss it as fake or impossible without actually listening, they're going to shut down and stop talking to you - and they'll go find someone else who will listen. Increasingly, they find that someone else online, and for people who have been cut off and isolated by their family/community support structures, that can lead down a path of radicalization (among other things).

Even if you think that being transgender is wrong or unnatural or whatever, you have to recognize that someone who says that they are trans is struggling with some sort of real feeling. And right now, the default stance taken by the Right and most Christians dismisses that real feeling as a figment of the person's imagination or a lie or something to be hated and despised. That's a recipe for some very messed up kids - and it's not a product of their gender identity, but rather a product of how they're treated because of it, even by the people that they love.

jacks · Monday at 7:58 PM

rjs330 said:
England's gin deaths are next to nothing

Bombay does all it can to reduce abuse.

Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

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