Who is really responsible for Salvation?

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Hentenza,
Yes, prior to my conversion, I was just as deceived by Satan as you currently are.

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Mercy Shown said:

It is your misinterpretation of scripture, not scripture itself. You have a very unbalanced reading of the text. One moment claiming that it is “for the age” while accepting that it means “eternal.”

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Hentenza said:

I’m goes beyond misinterpretation. This poster follows the heretical teachings of the now deceased L Ray Smith. He espoused not only universalism but also non Trinitarian beliefs. Look him up if you want to know more.

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear A New Dawn,
Over the past 20 years, I have seen that some verses are incorrectly translated because they contradict what other verses say. Scripture doesn't contradict itself but the translations most certainly do. Because I saw these issues with certain translated verses, I have studied the original language in order to find the correct translation. I certainly would not say that I am an expert in Greek or Hebrew but you don't have to be to find the correct translation of a particular verse.

One of the most serious mistranslated word comes from the translation of the Greek word "aion" and its adjective form "aionios. If you have read my posts, you already know why I say this.

Joe

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A New Dawn said:

Can you point out one example of a scripture that was changed because it doesn’t agree with other scriptures? I don’t believe you. There are dozens of versions of the Bible and hundreds of translators. You are suggesting that they all got together and agreed to mistranslate specific scriptures to match someone’s personal theology? Tell me whose personal theology they agreed on to use as the basis of a mistranslation.

And I have read your other posts discussing this. I have to say, though, that unless you can offer proof of your accusations, my trust goes with the experts.

On another front, Universalism is considered an unorthodox belief and can only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum.

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear A New Dawn,
So you believe that verses like the ones below are controversial?

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Cor 13:8 Love never fails;

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he finds it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

What is controversial is that anyone would deny the truth that these scriptures proclaim. But apostate babes do just that because they follow a different gospel that places the responsibility of salvation on the individual. This placement of responsibility is the same as what the Old Covenant of Law was founded upon - the works of man. Under the New Covenant, the responsibility of a person's salvation is Christ's alone and since He is mankind's God, it is blasphemy to teach that He will fail.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

By the end of the final age, Christ will have fully accomplished the mission that His Father sent Him to complete. No one will be lost.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If what I stated above is not allowed on this thread, then this thread should not be allowed either because what I presented answers the question the thread title asks: "Who is really responsible for salvation?"

As for your question on translations, I have already answered it in my previous posts.

Joe

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,
Over the centuries, the translation of scripture has been done by apostate believers who believe in false doctrines like the doctrines of Free Will and Eternal Hell. Because they have these false beliefs, they have translated certain verses to make them conform to their beliefs. This is especially true for verses that contain the Greek words "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios".

“Aion” means an age of time and “aionios” means age-during or pertaining to the age.

The ages are a very important concept in scripture. God’s creation only pertains to the ages, and once the ages come to an end, so will the reign of Christ.

With this concept in mind, let’s look at how the KJV translates “aion” in the verse below:

Here is an example:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for ever and ever! (aion aion) Amen! (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the ages of the ages! (aion aion) Amen! (YLT)

The phrase "ages of the ages" comes from “aion aion”. This phrase cannot mean “for ever and ever” as the KJV translates it because of what Paul says below:

1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ's reign comes to an end after He destroys the last enemy of death. This happens after the last person of mankind has been saved. Christ will not reign for ever and ever as the KJV says in Rev 11:15.

And likewise, the same error occurs in this verse:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion aion) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (aion aion) (YLT)

We can know that the YLT is correct because the Lake of Fire is the judgment of Christ which will come to an end after the last person of mankind has been converted. Judgment will not last “for ever and ever” once its has been satisfied.

Below is a verse that uses the Greek word “aionios”. It is the adjective form of “aion”.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (aionios) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during (aionios): but the righteous to life age-during. (aionios) (YLT)

The verse above is contrasting what happens to the two different groups of people during the final age (the goats and the sheep). The goats will receive judgment while the sheep will have life. It is not addressing what happens to them outside of the ages.

And since Rev 20:10 says that judgment is only for the “ages of the ages”, punishment is likewise only for the age. It is not “everlasting” as the KJV says.

Here is how Christ judges mankind in the Lake of Fire:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his Sun (Christ) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early & Latter Rains) on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Since the penalty of sin is death, Christ's individual judgment of a person (Luke 12:43-48) will end after each child of the Devil (all mankind) has perished. However, before any person perishes, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy will come to them as the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person will have faith and be "born again" as a new creation; a child of God. The newly born child of God is without sin so he will come out from Christ's judgment. However, the child of the Devil's judgment will continue until he has perished. This death will satisfy justice. After all mankind has perished n the Lake of Fire, Christ's judgment will come to an end. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father (now containing all mankind) which will give the Father "glory". God will then be "all in all" (within all mankind).

These scriptures apply:

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

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BibleBeliever1611 said:

If God preserves his word, then whatever Bible version is the most famous and preserved over centuries must be the right one.

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear BibleBeliever1611,
The original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures is God's Word. The translations of those original languages are the works of man.

Did you know that the KJV has had about 1,000 revisions to it since its first printing? And it still has many flaws even to this day.

Also, why do you think there are many, many different translations of scripture? It's because the translators believed that they could translate it better - which means it will be different.

Here is a simple difference between the KJV and the NKJV:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Which translation is correct?

Joe

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Which translation is correct?

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

So you believe that verses like the ones below are controversial?

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Hentenza said:

I’m goes beyond misinterpretation. This poster follows the heretical teachings of the now deceased L Ray Smith. He espoused not only universalism but also non Trinitarian beliefs. Look him up if you want to know more.

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Aaron112 said:

Trying in any way to pass off universalism is as much a false gospel as witchcraft is.

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Colo Millz said:

It's better to be a heretic than a pagan.

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BibleBeliever1611 said:

Dear GreatMysteryofChrist,

has the NKJV been preserved over the centuries? The KJV is over 400 years old. Not only that, it's the most famous Bible version. Not only that it's the most famous book in human history.

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Aaron112 said:

I noted that practically all the different translations are 'okay' and not contradictory when it is read and understood via , with, by , revelation from our Father. Not one of them is okay nor understood without revelation. God is Well Pleased to Keep the Meaning to Himself and to Reveal the Truth to whoever He chooses to reveal truth to. Internet discourse and rules are actually a hindrance to seeking and understanding His Wisdom and Purpose and Word.

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Aaron112,
Please see my response to biblebeliever1611.

I do agree that "internet discourse and rules are actually a hindrance to seeking and understanding His Wisdom and Purpose and Word". For some reason, most forums have forbidden subjects (trinity) or subjects that are only allowed to be discussed in one small area of the site. Truth is truth and can stand up to any discussion. When a forum censors certain subjects, they are enabling Satan to continue his deception of babes by taking away "the words of this prophecy":

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Here is some of those words that many forums remove from discussion:

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Joe

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A New Dawn said:

Each site or discussion board, by virtue of them being private sites, are allowed to restrict the topics and make the rules as they see fit. Because this site is geared to gather members from many different religions and denominations, the litmus test for discussions and to define the basis of Christianity for all the different groups gathered is the Nicene Creed. So whatever conflicts with the Nicene Creed is considered off limits except in certain forums. If you look at the rules they have listed the controversial topics and where they might be discussed.

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GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear A New Dawn,
You said:
Each site or discussion board, by virtue of them being private sites, are allowed to restrict the topics and make the rules as they see fit.

Yes, I never doubted it for a minute. But just because a site has that authority does not make it right. Censorship of free speech is never a good idea, especially since most of what is taught by "orthodox Christianity" is leavened bread and is not true. Paul was very serious about the "perverse things" that would enter the church after his death. To believe that the apostasy never devoured the church is a mistake and a deception of Satan.

Also, concerning the Nicene Creed: Nothing I teach or believe is contrary to what the creed states. If you carefully read the creed, it does NOT include a statement of support for the Trinity Doctrine nor does it disagree with the truth that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

Joe

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