Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

dogs4thewin · Monday at 10:38 AM

Valletta said:
Gun registration is advocated so that the government knows who owns guns, with a future plan for gun confiscation in mind. Don't try and violate our Constitution. Because a person has contempt for gun ownership is not a valid reason to take away the rights of others.

ding ding ding registeration would mean the government would know where to go to get the guns.

Desk trauma · Monday at 10:41 AM

dogs4thewin said:
ding ding ding registeration would mean the government would know where to go to get the guns.

The same guns that they were going to use to keep the government in line but they become ineffective if anyone knows about them.

dogs4thewin · Monday at 10:43 AM

RileyG said:
Jesus said nothing about guns...and he certainly didn't condone people being violent towards one another....what does that have to do with the thread? At all?

Children are dead in the name of violence.

ugh

Will the violence ever end?

Breaks my heart.

There is nothing wrong with not using or owning guns, but let me asks you this do you have issues with people using guns to protect you?

In other words, you may not own or use guns, but the reality is that in this fallen world there will also be violence and violence is all some people understand. Knowing this would you be upset if someone used a gun to protect you directly?

dogs4thewin · Monday at 10:45 AM

ThatRobGuy said:
That's why we desperately need to find a compromise that will satisfy the concerns of both parties.

If I may be a broken record...

Gun law in the Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I feel like this is the way

The Czech Republic has some pretty robust gun rights for purposes of self-defense, and they also can boast some of the lowest murder rates in Europe. That has to be the "best of both worlds" outcome for anyone looking at it objectively, correct?

They have a homicide rate of 0.7 (on par with the Nordic countries), Prague is one of the safest capital cities in the EU, and people like myself can still carry a firearm for self-defense.

Obviously what we have right now isn't working... our homicide rates stand out among other developed countries.

However, I'm also very sympathetic to the concept of "I, as a law abiding citizen, shouldn't ever have to be left a position of being at a disadvantage to a criminal who either wishes to hurt me, or take my stuff, and kowtow to them and tuck my tail and hand over my wallet"

If anyone would outright reject the Czech Republic model (given their legal framework, and their impressive results), then I have to think this isn't an "outcome based" debate, and is more rooted in "can't let the other side be right about anything or give them an inch".

If the only two proposals being presented are
"I should be able to buy a Tommy Gun at Walmart with no more difficulty involved than buying a gallon of milk"
vs.
"Nobody should be able to have a gun for any reason besides hunting"

Then I don't think either of those two positions are actually taking it seriously... and are likely just appealing to whatever stats and incidents that allows them to bolters their personal position.

I think part of the issue is if we had done that stuff earier it would have been easier, but when you already have over 300 MILLION guns the cat is kind of out of the bag.

dogs4thewin · Monday at 10:50 AM

Desk trauma said:
But you can still join the military at 18. Totally not a life changing decision.

I did not say that the age of the military could not be raised to match if that was the way we wanted to go instead.

Desk trauma · Monday at 10:52 AM

dogs4thewin said:
I did not say that the age of the military could not be raised to match if that was the way we wanted to go instead.

It’s always left out of all the demands for raising of legal ages. Odd that.

JosephZ · Monday at 11:12 AM

dogs4thewin said:
ding ding ding registeration would mean the government would know where to go to get the guns.

While it wouldn't be practical, if the government really wanted to, they could find out who many of the gun owners in the country are. When a gun is purchased from a licensed dealer, a Form 4473 is filled out, and the dealer has to keep that form on record until they go out of business. If or when the dealer goes out of business, those forms are sent to the National Tracing Center, where they are stored indefinitely. These records go back to 1968. While it would be extremely time-consuming and expensive, the government would be able to track down most people who legally purchased a gun from a gun dealer over the past 57 years.

RileyG · Monday at 12:27 PM

dogs4thewin said:
There is nothing wrong with not using or owning guns, but let me asks you this do you have issues with people using guns to protect you?

In other words, you may not own or use guns, but the reality is that in this fallen world there will also be violence and violence is all some people understand. Knowing this would you be upset if someone used a gun to protect you directly?

No. I have no problems with responsible gun owners. Period.

rjs330 · Monday at 1:32 PM

rjs330 said:
And since we all recognize that mental health is a serious component to these shootings we certainly should

rjs330 said:
allow anyone with a mental health disorder have access to guns. So Transgender people should be banned from having them for sure.

Oops, should not allow anyone with a mental health disorder to have access to guns.

rjs330 · Monday at 1:37 PM

RileyG said:
No. I have no problems with responsible gun owners. Period.

But how do you know who is and isn't a responsible gun owner? You dont really know until its too late. If we are actually serious about stopping gun violence we cant pay lip service. We have to get tide of guns. Period. Otherwise its just lip service.

Aldebaran · Monday at 1:54 PM

rambot said:
But you are arguing that they are going after your guns...and yet here is a list of laws that do no such thing. How about the paranoia relaxes when new gun laws DO get introduced.

I am NOT arguing that guns are unregulated.

That is a "strawman" argument.

The laws in place now (most of them) don't take guns away. We can thank the NRA and other groups for keeping legislators in check for that.
And yes, plenty of people claim that guns are unregulated. The ones that blanketly exclaim "we need gun control!" are the ones that seem to believe that there is no gun control at all at this point. Thankfully, one of them has already left this discussion.

Aldebaran · Monday at 1:55 PM

JosephZ said:
The police can't always be depended on when every second matters. Sometimes the response time to arrive at the scene can take several minutes; a few may hide like the resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, and other times they might stand around and do nothing like what we saw in Uvalde. The example at the link I shared was the best-case scenario. Police were literally on the scene and able to respond within seconds, and dozens of people still ended up being shot. Had the shooter been armed with a gun with a ten-round magazine or even multiple ten-round magazines, rather than an assault-style weapon with a 100-round magazine, the number of casualties would have been much lower.

The linked story that you responded to was a shooting that took place in Dayton, not this most recent shooting.

You seem to have it backwards. I was talking about Minneapolis and you are talking about Dayton. You even cited Dayton in a quote.

Valletta · Monday at 2:01 PM

JosephZ said:
While it wouldn't be practical, if the government really wanted to, they could find out who many of the gun owners in the country are. When a gun is purchased from a licensed dealer, a Form 4473 is filled out, and the dealer has to keep that form on record until they go out of business. If or when the dealer goes out of business, those forms are sent to the National Tracing Center, where they are stored indefinitely. These records go back to 1968. While it would be extremely time-consuming and expensive, the government would be able to track down most people who legally purchased a gun from a gun dealer over the past 57 years.

There are many many guns that were never registered. So too 3D printing now allows the home manufacturing of guns. But as you said, "the government would be able to track down most people who legally purchased a gun from a gun dealer over the past 57 years." That is, if they specifically wanted to go after those who legally purchased guns. Registering a gun only hurts those who bothered to legally register a gun--typically not the criminals. The fee per gun you advocated before again only hurts those who legally register a gun. Since a much higher percentage of trans individuals commit mass shooting than the regular population, a much simpler and effective way to save lives is to stop the government from promoting transitioning to children and monitor those who have transitioned.

Aldebaran · Monday at 2:12 PM

Valletta said:
There are many many guns that were never registered. So too 3D printing now allows the home manufacturing of guns. But as you said, "the government would be able to track down most people who legally purchased a gun from a gun dealer over the past 57 years." That is, if they specifically wanted to go after those who legally purchased guns. Registering a gun only hurts those who bothered to legally register a gun--typically not the criminals. The fee per gun you advocated before again only hurts those who legally register a gun. Since a much higher percentage of trans individuals commit mass shooting than the regular population, a much simpler and effective way to save lives is to stop the government from promoting transitioning to children and monitor those who have transitioned.

Not to mentioned that they would have a really hard time tracking down all the people who have moved from one location to another, or even died over the past 57 years.

Pommer · Monday at 2:19 PM

Valletta said:
Since a much higher percentage of trans individuals commit mass shooting than the regular population, a much simpler and effective way to save lives is to stop the government from promoting transitioning to children and monitor those who have transitioned.

Where has this been shown to be true? (Bolding Pommer’s)

JosephZ · Monday at 2:28 PM

Aldebaran said:
I was talking about Minneapolis and you are talking about Dayton. You even cited Dayton in a quote.

It appears that there was some confusion on your part during our back-and-forth discussion. I was always talking about the shooting that took place in Dayton.

JosephZ said:
Certain types of guns are part of the problem.

Dayton Shooting Lasted Just 32 Seconds and Left 9 Dead.
It was just 32 seconds from the first shot to the last shot. In that time, a 24-year-old gunman with an AR-15-style assault rifle and a 100-round drum magazine was able to kill nine people and wound 27 others on a crowded street in Dayton, Ohio early Sunday.

In that time, six Dayton police officers were able to respond and open fire, killing the shooter as he tried to enter a packed bar.

Aldebaran said:
See, the police are the solution! Why not look at it that way and hire more of them rather than further infringe upon Constitutional rights?

JosephZ said:
The police were already on the scene and responded to the threat within 20 seconds and yet the shooter was still able to kill 9 people and wound 27 others.

Aldebaran said:
News reports say the shooting lasted 2 minutes. What were the police doing the other 1 minute and 40 seconds?
Also, it was 2 people killed, not 9.

JosephZ said:
The linked story that you responded to was a shooting that took place in Dayton, not this most recent shooting.

Aldebaran said:
You seem to have it backwards. I was talking about Minneapolis and you are talking about Dayton. You even cited Dayton in a quote.

JosephZ · Monday at 2:35 PM

Valletta said:
Since a much higher percentage of trans individuals commit mass shooting than the regular population, a much simpler and effective way to save lives is to stop the government from promoting transitioning to children and monitor those who have transitioned.

This is not true. See post #196.

caffeinated.hermit · Monday at 2:41 PM

Pommer said:
Where has this been shown to be true?

So...

2023 Nashville school shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Annunciation Catholic Church shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

STEM School Highlands Ranch shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aberdeen, Maryland shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Perry High School shooting - Wikipedia (possibly, see link)

Transgender Teen Arrested for Montgomery County School-Shooting Plot | National Review (not carried out, ftm individual)

Federal Charges Filed Against Nashville Woman for Making Violent Threats Online (threats, not carried out, mtf individual)

While this is not an exhaustive list, it is concerning. The link between transgender identity and mental health issues needs to be looked into. These are not simply young people ending their own lives; they're ending their own lives as they take down other people, including kids.

Does this mean transgender individuals are more violent by nature, or more likely to commit a mass shooting? I'm not sure. But it's kind of a lot of incidents for a tiny minority-within-a-minority.

RileyG · Monday at 2:48 PM

rjs330 said:
But how do you know who is and isn't a responsible gun owner? You dont really know until its too late. If we are actually serious about stopping gun violence we cant pay lip service. We have to get tide of guns. Period. Otherwise its just lip service.

What?

durangodawood · Monday at 2:58 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
.....While this is not an exhaustive list, it is concerning. The link between transgender identity and mental health issues needs to be looked into......

Of course it does! Look at what trans people have to content with in this world. Its no wonder theyre having a harder time of it than non trans people.

What I completely reject is that "solving" trans people is going to solve the school (and other) shooting issue. If we locked up all the trans people forever, gun violence in the USA would still feel just as bad as it does now.

Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

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