Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

dogs4thewin · Friday at 11:55 AM

Nithavela said:
You give two options and then you invalidate one?

@Larniavc Maybe I should have been clearer when it coms to medicial treatment save as many people as is REASONABLE, but if we are talking about items guns, cars ECT in my mind it makes the most sense to save the most people or none at all in part because I do not trust the government to stop at "bad" guns or big cars ( if that was the topic at hand.

7thKeeper · Friday at 11:58 AM

Larniavc said:
I think you mean Russia.

Nah, England would have remained English. Continental Europe... Well depends on how far the Russians would have had the energy to push and depending on how well the other Allies would have kept their logistics working.

seeking.IAM · Friday at 1:23 PM

dogs4thewin said:
yup the issue is many times people like that do not care if that fame is good or bad. Which is one reason I feel that they should not make as big of a deal out of the school shootings. I am NOT saying not to report on them, but do not talk about them for days on end and do not bring up prior shootings every time there is another.

Yes, the press in many locales have already done what you are suggesting regarding suicide, particularly teen suicide, where knowledge of one seems to breed another. I was part of a successful community effort for the press to stop listing adolescent deaths as suicides. It would be helpful if we could stifle our need to know rather than advertising school shootings as path of notoriety.

o_mlly · Friday at 2:44 PM

JosephZ said:
It's also why most gun reform calls for the banning of high-capacity magazines in conjunction with an assault-style weapons ban. High-capacity magazines are used in over half of mass shootings.

And 100% of mass murderers are mentally disordered. Apply the Pareto principle to the stats.

o_mlly · Friday at 2:45 PM

Larniavc said:
I think you mean Russia.

I may have missed the Russian version of our Marshall Plan. Can you fill me in on the details?

JosephZ · Friday at 3:17 PM

o_mlly said:
And 100% of mass murderers are mentally disordered.

Not even close.

A look into the traits of a mass shooter

A Columbia University research study found that of the 1,800 mass murders, only 8% of all mass shooters were diagnosed with a severe mental illness, such as schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder.

Mass murderers with psychotic illness are much less likely to use firearms, much more likely to use other methods," Girgis said.

His research, however, did find a larger percentage of mass shooters -- 25% -- suffered from less severe mental illnesses like depression and anxiety.

But that closely mirrors the general population.

Mass Shootings’ Relationship to Mental Illness

If all violence in the US that is due to mental disorders could be eliminated, 95% to 97% of violent behavior would remain.

There is agreement that serious mental illness does contribute to a subset of mass shootings, with a commonly referenced estimate of 20%, or 1 in 5 mass shootings. Although improving the diagnosis and treatment of mental illnesses should always be part of the conversation, there is a paucity of information about the 80% of mass shootings that are not a direct result of a mental illness. Notably, a joint consensus of 60 mental health organizations in June 2022, including the American Psychiatric Association, stated:

“Attempts to connect mental illness to mass shootings are a distraction that inflicts enormous damage by taking attention from solutions that could actually prevent such events. This perpetuates a false narrative that encourages stigmatization of and discrimination against the millions of Americans living with mental health conditions.”

o_mlly · Friday at 3:29 PM

JosephZ said:
Not even close.

? The article cited seems to agree with my post. Or are you arguing that mass murderers are mostly mentally normal -- that committing mass murders is OK?

A diagnosis of severe mental disorder requires the patient to interview with his doctor. It's quite difficult to interview a dead person.

While severe mental illnesses, such as psychotic disorders, including schizophrenia, were not present in the perpetrators of these events, it is notable that almost half of these mass shooters took their own lives at the scene, leading the authors to hypothesize that these perpetrators viewed themselves as engaging in some form of “final act.”

Hentenza · Friday at 3:45 PM

JosephZ said:
Not even close.

A look into the traits of a mass shooter

A Columbia University research study found that of the 1,800 mass murders, only 8% of all mass shooters were diagnosed with a severe mental illness, such as schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder.

Mass murderers with psychotic illness are much less likely to use firearms, much more likely to use other methods," Girgis said.

His research, however, did find a larger percentage of mass shooters -- 25% -- suffered from less severe mental illnesses like depression and anxiety.

But that closely mirrors the general population.

Mass Shootings’ Relationship to Mental Illness

If all violence in the US that is due to mental disorders could be eliminated, 95% to 97% of violent behavior would remain.

There is agreement that serious mental illness does contribute to a subset of mass shootings, with a commonly referenced estimate of 20%, or 1 in 5 mass shootings. Although improving the diagnosis and treatment of mental illnesses should always be part of the conversation, there is a paucity of information about the 80% of mass shootings that are not a direct result of a mental illness. Notably, a joint consensus of 60 mental health organizations in June 2022, including the American Psychiatric Association, stated:

“Attempts to connect mental illness to mass shootings are a distraction that inflicts enormous damage by taking attention from solutions that could actually prevent such events. This perpetuates a false narrative that encourages stigmatization of and discrimination against the millions of Americans living with mental health conditions.”

This is true. Another paper from Columbia University states similar findings but also add possible causes.

Are people with mental health disorders more likely to commit mass shootings or mass murder?

The public tends to link serious mental illnesses, like schizophrenia or psychotic disorders, with violence and mass shootings. But serious mental illness—specifically psychosis—is not a key factor in most mass shootings or other types of mass murder. Approximately 5% of mass shootings are related to severe mental illness. And although a much larger number of mass shootings (about 25%) are associated with non-psychotic psychiatric or neurological illnesses, including depression, and an estimated 23% with substance use, in most cases these conditions are incidental.

Additionally, as we demonstrated in our paper, the contribution of mental illness to mass shootings has decreased over time. The data suggest that while it is critical that we continue to identify those individuals with mental illness and substance use disorders at high risk for violence and prevent the perpetration of violence, other risk factors, such as a history of legal problems, challenges coping with severe and acute life stressors, and the epidemic of the combination of nihilism, emptiness, anger, and a desire for notoriety among young men, seem a more useful focus for prevention and policy than an emphasis on serious mental illness, which leads to public fear and stigmatization.

Is There a Link Between Mental Health and Mass Shootings?

Findings from the Columbia database help dispel the myth that having a severe psychiatric illness is predictive of who will perpetrate mass murder.

www.columbiapsychiatry.org

While I read the highlighted portion above I can’t help but think that maybe some of the mental illness definitions might be somewhat skewed. History of legal problems, challenges with coping, nihilism, emptiness, anger, and a necessity for notoriety could certainly lead to depression and at times severe depression. Depression is a mental illness that sometimes requires medical intervention. I don’t believe that depression is an incidental cause as it is argued in this paper but a more robust reason for the potential for violence.

durangodawood · Friday at 3:49 PM

o_mlly said:
And 100% of mass murderers are mentally disordered. Apply the Pareto principle to the stats.

Depends what you mean.

Some, notably, are well functioning adults who are even possessed with normal empathy, etc. But, they are ideologically poisoned to the point where their targets are the enemy and theyre at war. In war youre encouraged to legitimately kill the enemy.

Ideological poisoning can strike minds that are well within the range we call healthy.

ThatRobGuy · Friday at 3:52 PM

Larniavc said:
They very definitely should. Reducing access to means is a proven method of reducing suicide completion.

That hasn't been proven to any substantial degree.

Changing Times: A Longitudinal Analysis of International Firearm Suicide Data - PMC

We investigated changes in the proportion of firearm suicides in Western countries since the 1980s and the relation of these changes to the change in the proportion of households owning firearms. Several countries had an obvious decline in firearm ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A critical Response to “How firearm legislation impacts firearm mortality”, A focused look at Canadian and Australian evidence - PMC

A recent review article in Health Policy Open, entitled “How firearm legislation impacts firearm mortality internationally: A scoping review” claims that Australian and Canadian firearms legislation is associated with reductions in homicide and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Firearm suicides in particular trend with proportion of households having firearms, but the suicide rates overall remain somewhat level.

Canada: Despite having a big reduction in proportion of households with a gun from 1989-2000. Their overall suicide rate only dropped from 13.2 to 11.7

For Australia, their households owning guns actually halved during that time period, but their suicide rate actually went up a point.

Japan has a very high suicide rate despite very little gun ownership.

Sweden's suicide rates went down quite a bit despite their gun ownership rates staying static over that time period.

That's because while people say "guns are the easiest method to do it", there are "close seconds" that are pretty much almost just as easy. (in fact, for women, they're more likely to use intentional oxygen depravation methods and intentional overdose)

But even if we pretend there's a perfect trend line, that still wouldn't be a compelling case for me.

Given that the majority of people who have suicidal ideation are a threat to themselves, but not to others, I'm not a fan of restricting everyone on the basis of what a suicidal person may use against themselves with regards to a public policy debate.

So I'll say the "harsh-sounding" part out loud.

While I'm in favor of certain gun control restrictions that would reduce the incidents of a person harming someone else with a gun (homicides and assaults)... I'm not prepared to sacrifice any of my ability to defend myself based on what someone may due to themselves with one.

And to be even more blunt, as someone who's a proponent of legalizing physician assisted suicide (on the basis of the notion that a free person has a right to decide whether A) they do and don't want to exist, and B) when they want to punch their ticket out on their own terms), I don't even think it's my place to try to use the force of government in the name of stopping someone from doing that.

dogs4thewin · Friday at 4:03 PM

seeking.IAM said:
Yes, the press in many locales have already done what you are suggesting regarding suicide, particularly teen suicide, where knowledge of one seems to breed another. I was part of a successful community effort for the press to stop listing adolescent deaths as suicides. It would be helpful if we could stifle our need to know rather than advertising school shootings as path of notoriety.

I will say that as it releates to suicide I disagree with that to a certain extent; because it is important for people to know that they are not alone and that it is OK to seek help if you are feeling depressed ECT I am not sure where the middle ground is with that

JosephZ · Friday at 4:03 PM

o_mlly said:
? The article cited seems to agree with my post. Or are you arguing that mass murderers are mostly mentally normal -- that committing mass murders is OK?

The articles do not support what you wrote, and no, you can't apply the Pareto principle to the stats as you suggested to determine that 100% of mass murderers are mentally disordered. Having one out of five mass shooters suffering from a mental disorder doesn't make all five mentally disordered.

Trogdor the Burninator · Friday at 4:34 PM

Hentenza said:
That is not happening since it is a constitutionally protected right. In the UK 83% of kids 13 to 19 are killed with a sharp object but I don’t see you trying to ban knives. The hypocrisy.

Knife bans - The new legislation will close a legal loophole and make it an imprisonable offence to own, make, transport or sell a wide range of what are called “statement” knives favoured by criminal gangs. Zombie-style knives and machetes are defined as weapons with blades over eight inches (20cm) in length, normally with a serrated cutting edge.

Ninja sword bans - From today (Friday, August 1) it will be illegal to possess, manufacture, import or sell ninja swords in the UK

Amnesty announced to surrender knives

Meanwhile in the US - "guns are in the constitution, so we can't touch them in any way. Let the children keep dying"

Trogdor the Burninator · Friday at 4:48 PM

Aldebaran said:
Besides, why should law-abiding citizens be restricted based on what criminals do, or might do?

Excellent. I can now take my 2L bottle of Cola on a plane. And my pocket knife. Because why should law-abiding citizens be restricted based on what criminals do, or might do?

Trogdor the Burninator · Friday at 5:02 PM

LizaMarie said:
I I also propose to raise the legal age to purchase firearms to be 21, maybe even 25(heck you can't rent a car until you're 25!)nationwide. The frontal cortex of our brains aren't fully formed until the early 20's

Alternatively, people between 18 & 21 should start a mass civil disobedience campaign and refuse to abide by alcohol laws. If they're old enough to buy a gun, they're old enough to buy a beer.

Trogdor the Burninator · Friday at 5:13 PM

Aldebaran said:
Arming teachers...

Hentenza · Friday at 5:32 PM

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Knife bans - The new legislation will close a legal loophole and make it an imprisonable offence to own, make, transport or sell a wide range of what are called “statement” knives favoured by criminal gangs. Zombie-style knives and machetes are defined as weapons with blades over eight inches (20cm) in length, normally with a serrated cutting edge.

Ninja sword bans - From today (Friday, August 1) it will be illegal to possess, manufacture, import or sell ninja swords in the UK

Amnesty announced to surrender knives

Meanwhile in the US - "guns are in the constitution, so we can't touch them in any way. Let the children keep dying"

But what I posted stated sharp objects of which knives is one type. How about steak knives, butter knives, bread knives, forks, scissors, tent stakes, letter openers, scalpels, or ice picks? Lets not forget sharp tools like saws, gypsum knives, box openers, reciprocating saws, and oscillating tools. How about children deaths do to car accidents? Should cars be banned?

More than 3,400 children aged 7 or under were killed or injured on roads in Britain in 2022 – equivalent to nine young children being killed or injured every day.

Every day, nine young children are killed or injured on roads… | Brake

More than 200,000 children aged 2–7 are taking part in Beep Beep! Day with Brake

www.brake.org.uk

Do you not see the absurdity of it all? The problem is not the tool but the one who wields it. Taking away rights, like the UK has been doing as of late, is not the answer.

ThatRobGuy · Friday at 7:40 PM

Minneapolis gunman Robin Westman blamed massacre on mom warning him not to change gender— and discouraged people from letting their kids transition

In his manifesto, Westman, 23, claimed to be anxious about a visit from his mother in an entry dated July, where he recalled her warnings about transitioning.

nypost.com

(Yes, I know NY Post isn't some peoples' first choice for a source, nor is it mine...but many outlets are refusing to delve into some of the details)

The gunman appeared to be all over the map, making some self-contradicting statements, based on some recently released information.

In one part of the manifesto, he chastises his mother for making him "stay in his discomfort unable to ask for help to avoid admitting defeat. You were right mama, but the way you handled it led me to wanting to kill so so many people,”

They also blame transitioning and marijuana use for their violent thoughts saying "I wished I'd never experimented with either" (they go onto say "Parents, don't let your kids smoke week or mess with their gender")

It sounds like the fact that his mom (despite agreeing to sign off on the legal name change) saying "you're going to regret this in a few years" made him feel like it was "defeat" to admit that mistakes were made.

But then later says:
“You did not fail me, you gave me so much. I truly appreciate the love you have given me,” Westman said to his parents. “I feel I was raised to be a good person.

“I’ve kept those traits of empathy, self-sacrifice, and good character. Please do not think you have failed as parents,” he added.

And they also appear to be convinced that vaping had given them cancer (despite no evidence that they had cancer)

It sounds like this person had several different mental health issues happening at once and overlapping.

While I'm not a clinician, it's quite possible that this person could've had a situation happening that's similar to this scenario described in the NIH case literature

The authors present clear pattern of gender identity variations coinciding solely with psychotic episodes during schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. The authors postulate that gender dysphoria can co-occur with other psychiatric disorders or may correspond only during acute psychosis. The distinction is critical to make to ensure accurate diagnoses regarding whether gender dysphoria is a symptom only during an acute psychotic illness, or if there is a longer-standing concern as to the patient’s gender identity and assignment.

In this case report, the patient will be referred to without using pronouns given fluctuations in pronouns over time. A Hispanic person, assigned male at birth (AMAB), identified as female upon admission. The patient denied any significant or contributing past medical history. The patient had a past psychiatric history of schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type, and presented involuntarily to the psychiatric inpatient unit for bizarre behavior and hallucinations for the past three months. Per the patient’s mother’s report, the patient had been refusing to eat, was easily agitated, and was exhibiting signs of mania, including decreased sleep, and increased sexual behavior. The patient reported medication nonadherence for an unknown amount of time. The patient denied the previous existence of a female identity. Upon admission, the patient presented in masculine clothing and identified as a female, requesting that staff use she/her/hers pronouns.

Bradskii · Friday at 7:53 PM

dogs4thewin said:
If guns were the issue we would have 100,000s or MILLIONS of people die with guns each year or else we would have guns going off randomly neither of those are the case.

I find it difficult to come to terms with what you are saying. Which is, in effect, that there's hardly a problem with guns. Because gee, lots more kids would be blown apart if there was. I mean...how many kids have to die before you realise that there is a problem. Twelve a day seems to be what you're prepared to accept. I asked earlier and I'll ask again: What is the figure when you call for a national debate of what you must do?

Bradskii · Friday at 7:54 PM

dogs4thewin said:
I know I am not the poster being addressed, but I suggest better mental health care namely meaning more accessible.

That doesn't stop people who are mentally unstable accessing guns. Try again.

Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

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