Believers being bullied by other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Dan1988 · Friday at 8:29 PM

2PhiloVoid said:
I imagine your church is growing by leaps and bounds and ready to add on to its worship sanctuary due to the overflow of incoming worshipers.

Am I right?

It's not my Church. You obviously don't know what the word "Church" means so let me help you with that. The Church is the Body of Christ, He is the Head and I'm a member of His body.

You are right about the growth of the Church, it has been growing exponentially, ever since the Lord Jesus Christ established it. He promised to build His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

God has been adding more and more members to the Church everyday, while the false Christians are being exposed and they are falling away. So there is a great falling away, taking place but they are being replaced with true believers at the same time. So Christ was right after all, He is building His Church in spite of the best efforts of the Devil and His children to destroy the Church.

Hazelelponi · Friday at 9:11 PM

jmldn2 said:
Humility is important to our Lord and Savior. No one is to think more highly of themselves than others. No one is without sin; either of commission or omission

I'm sure there's a balance to be found. While none of us are perfect Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 did point out, as I recall, that we are to judge ourselves and certainly not tolerate open and egregious sin.

We are to uphold the right, in ourselves first.

2PhiloVoid · Friday at 9:22 PM

Dan1988 said:
It's not my Church. You obviously don't know what the word "Church" means so let me help you with that. The Church is the Body of Christ, He is the Head and I'm a member of His body.

You are right about the growth of the Church, it has been growing exponentially, ever since the Lord Jesus Christ established it. He promised to build His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

God has been adding more and more members to the Church everyday, while the false Christians are being exposed and they are falling away. So there is a great falling away, taking place but they are being replaced with true believers at the same time. So Christ was right after all, He is building His Church in spite of the best efforts of the Devil and His children to destroy the Church.

Actually, it just so happens I already DO know what the word "Church" means.

CoreyD · Friday at 9:50 PM

stevevw said:
I understand this and its sort of logic and non contradiction. Division and fighting are not fruits Chists would produce. So I agree that there are certain fruits of the spirit which will identify Christs church and its really as simple as that.

But the problem I was trying to point out is that I think the gospel and truth has been watered down so much and false teachers have become so good at creating narratives that almost seem loving and true that it takes strutiny to unpeel the decption beyond most.

A similar phenomena is happening in wider society. Which to me points to it actually being a cultural wide thing. But many have been foold by the false narratives and then some wakeup a few years later realising they were fooling themselves. Especially in politics.

Then it becames a game of which side has the least division and the right kinds of fruits of the spirit. Claiming many are being saved as proof of the good fruits. Its really becoming a minefield of hermeneutics and narratives where everyone is claiming the truth. While the truth is getting lost in all this white noise.

I'm glad to finally speak with someone who understands this.

stevevw said:
Now I know those who know God and who obey and stay true know this and can tell. But how do many out there know which church or Christian community they should belong to and not also be decieved in the name of God.

This is a good point.
The last statement seems to be a question, and it can be answered in one word - humility Luke 10:21... Or perhaps two or three, considering what Jesus said at Matthew 5:6.

When a person is really thirsty or hungry, they make every effort to fill that need, and if they are humble, they don't think they don't think they can do it on their own.

stevevw said:
This is where I think the spirit of God will cause like minded and spirited people to endup coming together.

Sounds fair.

stevevw said:
Whatever church that will be but I would say one of the more traditional ones.

Ahem.

Why?

stevevw said:
I agree and have used this same reasoning. Paul was constantly worried about the church like a shepherd who knows there are wolves lingering around and getting into the church.

That is what I think is missing. First that overseers are properly qualified. But more so that the perception is they are not really necessary at all in the sense of how the early church functioned.

Today its more an egalitarian approach where everyone makes the decisions jointly. Authority is seen as control.

Which I might add is one of the arguements for why the progressive church is the true church. Because they are not like the bully authoritive churches. So the narrative has become a powerful tool in the culture wars.

Sorry... what's "the progressive church"?

stevevw said:
No I don't think so. Not generally anyway. Maybe in pockets here and there.

But this is part of the deception. That the scriptures should not be taken literally. That cultural, experiencial and modern norms should inform us as to what is Christlike.

As I said those who do stand on tradition or any authorative aspect are seen as out of date and touch. We live in a relative world where pushing single truths is seen as control.

In other words not only are the scriptures being watered down the culture within which the church exists is watered down.

Good point.

stevevw said:
I agree. I believe that Christ installed in the disciples everything we need to build the church. To identify the good fruits of a Christian community. One of them is unity in mind and spirit. So division no matter who is right or wrong is a sign of bad fruit.

Clement I think said that division was the beginning of evil in the church. It meant some underlying issue was like cancer and if left would eat away and further compromise the church.

I think as we are now in a world which is primed for fake news, narratives and truths we cannot win anyone by just poiting out the biblical truth of the plain and clear words. As words are now themselves relative and hold multiple meanings.

Therefore I think the key destinguishing factor that can determine truth from untruths will be found in living the teachings. Paul lived the teachings. He says the members were his reference because they seen in him the teachings living a Christlike example.

I like that expression - living the teachings.
Actually, it's exactly what identifies Jesus followers today.
The pattern set in the first century is not outdated at all. If we see that pattern today, we are seeing the narrow road, and humility will put us on that road... rather than following the modern thinking - "it doesn't matter. You can get sugar at any Supermarket."
Choosing a place of worship is now like choosing a Supermarket.

stevevw said:
Peter says that a Christlike disposition of love and obedience to God expposed evil and turned people towards God and His truth without even preaching Gods words.

This means by first living the words the disposition of the person is what is empowering the words. The words don't need a rationalising re semantics. They are embodied truths that cannot be disputed.

But also another sign of truth is consistency, calmness, and as you say love. Because love is not concieted or anxious to prove right. Its patient and kind in preserving the truth and being above reproach. So that others may also see and know that truth and also partake.

This I notice of alternative ideologies. That they are overly protective and projected as a matter of life and death. It will use emotion and manipulation and even become antagonistic against opposing beliefs. Always changing to suit what is appealing to sensitivities. But many people can fall for the emotion and appeal.

I'm glad we are seeing eye to eye on this.

stevevw · Friday at 11:40 PM

CoreyD said:
I'm glad to finally speak with someone who understands this.

Yes and I think that satan moves with the times. We have as a society become very relativistic as though this in itself is a truth even for the church.
Rationalisations have become good at finding ideas and beliefs that muddy the waters making it easier to manipulate the truth. The longer the time the better the lies become that its not so obvious to the average person.

CoreyD said:
This is a good point.
The last statement seems to be a question, and it can be answered in one word - humility Luke 10:21... Or perhaps two or three, considering what Jesus said at Matthew 5:6.

When a person is really thirsty or hungry, they make every effort to fill that need, and if they are humble, they don't think they don't think they can do it on their own.

I think so. Humility seems to be a central quality and especially in a self centered world. And I think from humility the decerning factor is self sacrifice. This is the ultimate meaning of humility under Christ as opposed to the world. This is a adical idea that the world seems to think is unreal and even weak.

But the one aspect they could never bring any charge against is that like Christ His sacrifice for others was out of love for another. There is no other rational. Unless some will say this is unreal and evidence the person is mad. But this can never account for such an act or disposition based on the belief in Christ.

CoreyD said:
Ahem. Why?

I think based on the fact that there is a physical church. Paul gives instructions on how this is to be setup. So I would think that a church that practices such teachings as close to the original will be more in line.

For me the early church say from around 34AD to perhaps maybe 150AD before it began to be undermined is the best example. Ant church that can trace their history to the apostles is closer than those who don't. At least in the bare bones apects. I know some or most churches have added other stuff. But that is more about the fringe rituals ect.

So ideas like having a properly qualified overseer according to the teachings and say the breaking of the bread as central. Churches that at least practice these is closer than say those who completely reject this. Who may have compromised the qualification of overseers and replaced the breaking of bread with some modern idea or dismissed it altogether.

CoreyD said:
Sorry... what's "the progressive church"?

A progressive church is like progressive politics that aligns with social norms as they progress. If we take say marriage for example. Secular progressives support the idea of redefining marriage according to modern ideas and beliefs.

Some churches also align with these as they believe this is showing Christs true love of inclusion. So as social norms progress beyond traditional norms which were based on the bible some churches are reinterpreting tradition as being outdated and unloving and therefore believe that we should be open to change.

CoreyD said:
I like that expression - living the teachings.
Actually, it's exactly what identifies Jesus followers today.
The pattern set in the first century is not outdated at all. If we see that pattern today, we are seeing the narrow road, and humility will put us on that road... rather than following the modern thinking - "it doesn't matter. You can get sugar at any Supermarket."
Choosing a place of worship is now like choosing a Supermarket.

I think so. In all the arguements and narratives and counter claims as to truth its hard to navigate all this purely based on words and narratives as there is nothing grounded.

But living Christs teachings actually grounds the words. It gives a tangible aspect to draw upon. Now others may refer to other religions or even secular examples. All well and good. But I think there is something particular about Christs example that cannot be mimicked or disputed.

In some ways it is quite radical to all that has come before and after even in religious terms. Perhaps this is the point. Its so simple and radically different to this world that it has lasted. It gets at something at the core of truth and life that cannot be denied. Though some will deny this they can never fault it.

CoreyD said:
I'm glad we are seeing eye to eye on this.

jmldn2 · Saturday at 8:11 PM

I see a lot of judgement here.

stevevw · Sunday at 1:22 AM

jmldn2 said:
I see a lot of judgement here.

Isn't that judging itself lol. I don't think its judgement but rather decerning between Christians the truth. Its important in a time where many truths are claimed to be the way.

I am pretty sure Paul was often calling out sin and false teachings and warning people to not associate with anyone who professed an alternative doctrine.

I think this is more about shepherding and protecting the flock from the outside world. But certainly anyone is welcome and they will not be judged that they come seeking God. Well they should not be anyway.

I think its more that in protecting the truth within the church and as Paul said to not associate with sinners or false ideas that a Christian has come to repent and not be continuing that life within the church.

So there comes a line where sinners are welcome but at the same time sin cannot be practiced in the church. Outside the church is a different story. The worst thing a Christian could do is start judging others as they are already deemed hypocrites and haters.

This would be buying into the same identity politics that society is engaging in. If you notice and especially on social media people are very judgemental, shaming others, outing them, calling for their dismissal, even attacking them. So its become a dangerous game for Christians.

Thats why I think living the teachings and being meek like Christ is the most powerful example today that is so radical to how the world is.

jmldn2 · Sunday at 6:42 AM

stevevw said:
Isn't that judging itself lol. I don't think its judgement but rather decerning between Christians the truth. Its important in a time where many truths are claimed to be the way.

I am pretty sure Paul was often calling out sin and false teachings and warning people to not associate with anyone who professed an alternative doctrine.

I think this is more about shepherding and protecting the flock from the outside world. But certainly anyone is welcome and they will not be judged that they come seeking God. Well they should not be anyway.

I think its more that in protecting the truth within the church and as Paul said to not associate with sinners or false ideas that a Christian has come to repent and not be continuing that life within the church.

So there comes a line where sinners are welcome but at the same time sin cannot be practiced in the church. Outside the church is a different story. The worst thing a Christian could do is start judging others as they are already deemed hypocrites and haters.

This would be buying into the same identity politics that society is engaging in. If you notice and especially on social media people are very judgemental, shaming others, outing them, calling for their dismissal, even attacking them. So its become a dangerous game for Christians.

Thats why I think living the teachings and being meek like Christ is the most powerful example today that is so radical to how the world is.

LOL yep you are correct. Yes, thanks for your reply.

timothyu · Sunday at 11:32 AM

stevevw said:
is the most powerful example today that is so radical to how the world is.

It is a third option. A culture countering the default ways of mankind.

CoreyD · Sunday at 2:56 PM

stevevw said:
Yes and I think that satan moves with the times. We have as a society become very relativistic as though this in itself is a truth even for the church.

You know, I have seen this relativism taking over the world of Christianity.
For example, truth is relative to billions. There is now "my truth" and "your truth", and both are acceptable to God.

Spirituality is no longer fixed to what the scriptures say about it. The meaning of spirituality has developed and expanded over time, and various meanings can be found alongside each other.
As you said, we live in times of change, and many are conforming. If you don't, "it's you that has the problem".
Jesus showed where the problem lies though. He refused to be fashioned by the "cultural norms". John 16:33

stevevw said:
Rationalisations have become good at finding ideas and beliefs that muddy the waters making it easier to manipulate the truth. The longer the time the better the lies become that its not so obvious to the average person.

The fact that you know this, along with a few millions, tells us that we can all know it... if we want to.
It's quite logically a fact.

stevevw said:
I think so. Humility seems to be a central quality and especially in a self centered world. And I think from humility the decerning factor is self sacrifice. This is the ultimate meaning of humility under Christ as opposed to the world. This is a adical idea that the world seems to think is unreal and even weak.

Self centered world?
You must be out of your mind!!!
Can't you see the world is the more loving now than it ever as been?

I'm being sarcastic, obviously.

As Jesus and Paul said, the world is indeed more self-centered than ever before, and will continue to get worse.
Matthew 24:13; 2 Timothy 3:1-4, 13

To be humble in this world, is going to call for change.
I have had to make great changes to develop humility, and I am still making changes, because developing humility does not come overnight, and one has to continually try to keep pride from resurfacing.

stevevw said:
But the one aspect they could never bring any charge against is that like Christ His sacrifice for others was out of love for another. There is no other rational. Unless some will say this is unreal and evidence the person is mad. But this can never account for such an act or disposition based on the belief in Christ.

stevevw said:
I think based on the fact that there is a physical church. Paul gives instructions on how this is to be setup. So I would think that a church that practices such teachings as close to the original will be more in line.

For me the early church say from around 34AD to perhaps maybe 150AD before it began to be undermined is the best example. Ant church that can trace their history to the apostles is closer than those who don't. At least in the bare bones apects. I know some or most churches have added other stuff. But that is more about the fringe rituals ect.

So many will claim they can trace their history to the apostles, and some have done so.
Yet the pattern left by Jesus and his followers, from 29 AD to 90+ CE is not visible in them.
Actually, some have felt they were being bullied into following the pattern, and that's what led to them gathering teachers for themselves to tickle their itching ears.

However, Paul said no. This is actually Christ' commission. "Preach the word", he said. "do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
Many looked down on the work, and that is why it waned, and came to a stop, shortly after the Apostolic Age.

This can be confirmed by historical documentation.
Even reports today, such as this 2025 report, confirm this truth.

stevevw said:
So ideas like having a properly qualified overseer according to the teachings and say the breaking of the bread as central. Churches that at least practice these is closer than say those who completely reject this. Who may have compromised the qualification of overseers and replaced the breaking of bread with some modern idea or dismissed it altogether.

The scriptures say of the early church... they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, (Acts 2:42-46)

That certainly described the fellowship those joining themselves to the Lord's Church enjoyed.
The scriptures added...
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47)

How did the Lord add to the church daily such as should be saved?
Paul said, in line with his words to peach the word, and fully accomplish your ministry (2 Timothy 4:1-5)...
All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation 2 Corinthians 5:18

What's the "ministry of reconciliation"?
Is it not what allows for God's will to be done?1 Timothy 2:3, 4
Is it not what Paul said was most important to the holy ones - the Saints? 2 Corinthians 6:3-10; Acts 20:17-30
Did you notice what that is?

If the breaking of bread, and being a clergy, replaces that, would that really be a mark of the Church of Christ?

stevevw said:
A progressive church is like progressive politics that aligns with social norms as they progress. If we take say marriage for example. Secular progressives support the idea of redefining marriage according to modern ideas and beliefs.

Some churches also align with these as they believe this is showing Christs true love of inclusion. So as social norms progress beyond traditional norms which were based on the bible some churches are reinterpreting tradition as being outdated and unloving and therefore believe that we should be open to change.

Oh.. okay.
Something like this then? Romans 12:2
Which contrasts Romans 12:1, 3?

stevevw said:
I think so. In all the arguements and narratives and counter claims as to truth its hard to navigate all this purely based on words and narratives as there is nothing grounded.

But living Christs teachings actually grounds the words. It gives a tangible aspect to draw upon. Now others may refer to other religions or even secular examples. All well and good. But I think there is something particular about Christs example that cannot be mimicked or disputed.

In some ways it is quite radical to all that has come before and after even in religious terms. Perhaps this is the point. Its so simple and radically different to this world that it has lasted. It gets at something at the core of truth and life that cannot be denied. Though some will deny this they can never fault it.

Interesting that you used the word "simple". I agree it's simple. Yet only the humble attain it. That certainly identifies God's work.

CoreyD · Sunday at 3:27 PM

stevevw said:
Isn't that judging itself lol. I don't think its judgement but rather decerning between Christians the truth. Its important in a time where many truths are claimed to be the way.

I am pretty sure Paul was often calling out sin and false teachings and warning people to not associate with anyone who professed an alternative doctrine.

I think this is more about shepherding and protecting the flock from the outside world. But certainly anyone is welcome and they will not be judged that they come seeking God. Well they should not be anyway.

I think its more that in protecting the truth within the church and as Paul said to not associate with sinners or false ideas that a Christian has come to repent and not be continuing that life within the church.

So there comes a line where sinners are welcome but at the same time sin cannot be practiced in the church. Outside the church is a different story. The worst thing a Christian could do is start judging others as they are already deemed hypocrites and haters.

This would be buying into the same identity politics that society is engaging in. If you notice and especially on social media people are very judgemental, shaming others, outing them, calling for their dismissal, even attacking them. So its become a dangerous game for Christians.

Thats why I think living the teachings and being meek like Christ is the most powerful example today that is so radical to how the world is.

It's important to identify a wolf, if you are to be a good shepherd who protects the sheep, isn't it?
If one fail to judge between a wolf and a sheep, then they can only read Jesus' words, but are not able to apply them.
Jesus started his statements with "Beware".

Matthew 7:15, 16
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them.

Imagine you went to a house, and there is this sign on the gate

This thing on four legs comes up to the gate, but you don't want to judge it, and so you reach your hand over the gate to give it a friendly greeting.
If we don't make judgments in this world, we would not be applying the scriptures at all, would we. Worst yet, we would be in serious trouble.
For example, the scriptures say...
Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Proverbs 13:20

Would we not identify who are fools... not that they do not have intelligence, but they lack good moral values, or are ungodly?
We would, if we want to protect our spiritual values, and even those of our children.
We would not want our children hanging out with youths who do drugs, used profanity, or engage in immoral talk and conduct, would we.

In the same way, we want to protect the flock - our spiritual brothers and sisters, as you nicely explained.
I think generally, people know this quite well, but why religion is excluded, is simply because it's a comfort zone to be in, when we take the position, that we are not to judge religion, or religious beliefs.

People know this as well.
They may not want to hear it though.

stevevw · Sunday at 9:48 PM

timothyu said:
It is a third option. A culture countering the default ways of mankind.

I am not sure what you mean.

timothyu · Sunday at 10:03 PM

stevevw said:
I am not sure what you mean.

Man takes one side or the other but both serve self regardless. God says to serve each other which is those of both sides.
,

stevevw · Monday at 12:31 AM

CoreyD said:
You know, I have seen this relativism taking over the world of Christianity.
For example, truth is relative to billions. There is now "my truth" and "your truth", and both are acceptable to God.
Spirituality is no longer fixed to what the scriptures say about it. The meaning of spirituality has developed and expanded over time, and various meanings can be found alongside each other.
As you said, we live in times of change, and many are conforming. If you don't, "it's you that has the problem".
Jesus showed where the problem lies though. He refused to be fashioned by the "cultural norms". John 16:33

As mentioned I think overall in recent years we are living in a Postmodernist world. Two hallmarks of Postmodernism are that there are no single or fixed truths and even objective facts are questionable.

The other is truth is 'self referential'. Which is as you said 'your truth and my truth'. Thats why we often hear that personal experiences, feelings and narratives are to be believed even over objective reality. As we know personal experiences are not necessarily truth objectiively. But it seems this now trumps all else.

So this is the backdrop to begin with as compared to past times which is exerting pressure on everyone included churches. Like you said just claiming biblical truths is seen as oppressive in applying a single truth over peoples experiences and self truths.

CoreyD said:
The fact that you know this, along with a few millions, tells us that we can all know it... if we want to.
It's quite logically a fact.

I think we all know Gods truth in what we see. Its something in all humans. Research shows we are born theists. But the many rationalisations that have been developed over time have deminished this truth in the world.

Thats why I think being still and knowing God is important. If you remove all the whitenoise of rationalisations in your head and just look and listen we will see and hear God.

But this is a spiritual battle so the real battle is in the spiritual world. Behind the rationalisations and denials is a battle for reality itself and whether it is God or not God or some other god. Spiritual dark forces and principalities at work to deny the truth.

CoreyD said:
Self centered world?
You must be out of your mind!!!
Can't you see the world is the more loving now than it ever as been?
I'm being sarcastic, obviously.

But what you say is tru for the world I think. This is the arguement that the world is better off now without God. But I think a natural development of rejecting God is that the self becomes the god. As in the past we see how empires rose up and the leaders seen themselves as gods.

But if the focus is not on God who is above us it will naturally come back to self as the only meaningful thing in life. As the measure of life and as the only real thing who can determine the world and future.

CoreyD said:
As Jesus and Paul said, the world is indeed more self-centered than ever before, and will continue to get worse.
Matthew 24:13; 2 Timothy 3:1-4, 13

To be humble in this world, is going to call for change.
I have had to make great changes to develop humility, and I am still making changes, because developing humility does not come overnight, and one has to continually try to keep pride from resurfacing.

Yes its almost an alien concept. You have to keep yourself in check. Even in small things its easy to slip into self over others. Your in a rush because the world demands you conform. You get lured into making a kingdom for yourself in this world.

Its part of our natural inclination that todays world is pressuring people to conform. Its almost like a person is foolish for not thinking of self first. Everything exudes self and individual success, consumerism, materialism, career, money, house, car, and image.

CoreyD said:
So many will claim they can trace their history to the apostles, and some have done so.
Yet the pattern left by Jesus and his followers, from 29 AD to 90+ CE is not visible in them.
Actually, some have felt they were being bullied into following the pattern, and that's what led to them gathering teachers for themselves to tickle their itching ears.

Yes I have heard this idea before of the pattern of the early church. Like its an identifier of Christs church. A pattern that can apply today regardless of how culture changes.

What do you think this pattern is. I would say a big part is Christs example. Perhaps a disposition and not just good works. Conforming to Gods kingdom rather than the world. Certain ways of being that are spiritual and not worldly perhaps. Living according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Paul speaks of these things and he seemed to be the main teacher to the church. I think much of this pattern is found in Pauls letters.

CoreyD said:
However, Paul said no. This is actually Christ' commission. "Preach the word", he said. "do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
Many looked down on the work, and that is why it waned, and came to a stop, shortly after the Apostolic Age.

I think the early church world was similar to today in many respects. There were alternative ideologies which mysticised the gospel. Paul would have been battling against these alternative doctrines coming in. While standing true on the same true gospel even assaulted several times and eventually being executed in protecting it.

CoreyD said:
This can be confirmed by historical documentation.
Even reports today, such as this 2025 report, confirm this truth.

It didn't take long. That is why I think in Christs teachings and those to the apostles and the apostles to the early church and to a less extent from the disciples of the apostles who they appointed are so vital before the church was corrupted.

But I also think the church has never been completely corrupted. Christ said that hades will never overcome the church.

CoreyD said:
The scriptures say of the early church... they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, (Acts 2:42-46)

That certainly described the fellowship those joining themselves to the Lord's Church enjoyed.
The scriptures added...
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47)

Also helping the poor and needy, the widows. With all that was happening it was pointed out that there were many widows who needed help. So they appointed deacons to care for them. The synagogues also acted as like a refuge and hub for the poor and other needs. Even a refuge with accommmodation for some.

It seems they had to also look after their own church community and this was to be the example to the world that they did not just speak the teachings.

CoreyD said:
How did the Lord add to the church daily such as should be saved?
Paul said, in line with his words to peach the word, and fully accomplish your ministry (2 Timothy 4:1-5)...
All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation 2 Corinthians 5:18

Yes Paul even when faced with death before Nero and having the opportunity to deny the gospel and bow to the Roman gods he stayed true. He kept repeating the simple gospel as an eye witness and that this was the truth. He was assaulted many times for doing so.

All the apostles were subject like this. All Christians faced similar. Yet in a paradoxial way despite generally people seeing the plight of Christians many were attracted. The God fearers came because they had seen something true even in the face od their own death for believing so. It is a simple and powerful gospel.

CoreyD said:
What's the "ministry of reconciliation"?
Is it not what allows for God's will to be done?1 Timothy 2:3, 4
Is it not what Paul said was most important to the holy ones - the Saints? 2 Corinthians 6:3-10; Acts 20:17-30
Did you notice what that is?

Yes this is living the gospel. Not only are we preaching the gospel but living it which in the case of Paul and the disciples meant copping many beatings and descrimination and persecution. But the power was in that they lived what they preached.

They remained consistent and true no matter what. This in the end is what turned people to God. They were a true and reliable witness to Christ and could not be faulted.

CoreyD said:
If the breaking of bread, and being a clergy, replaces that, would that really be a mark of the Church of Christ?

I think the gospel is what is preached to the world and the breaking of bread is a matter for already saved Christians to fellowship in Christ. Which strengthens Christians to then go out into the world to live and preach the gospel.

CoreyD said:
Oh.. okay.
Something like this then? Romans 12:2
Which contrasts Romans 12:1, 3?

Yes that is important but I was thinking more along the lines of say Matthew 7:15. False teachers who bend with the times come in sheeps clothing. They look and act like sheep but are not sheep. So some can be fooled because the progressive ideas sound like sheep.

But I agree that it is by being obedient to God and His will like Christ and not ours is what makes us sheep.

CoreyD said:
Interesting that you used the word "simple". I agree it's simple. Yet only the humble attain it. That certainly identifies God's work.

Maybe thats why its simple because anyone can know. You don't have to be an academic which seems to be how we qualify what is truth today.

stevevw · Monday at 12:33 AM

timothyu said:
Man takes one side or the other but both serve self regardless. God says to serve each other which is those of both sides.
,

Do you mean that we are to serve others regardless of what side they take.

stevevw · Monday at 2:46 AM

CoreyD said:
It's important to identify a wolf, if you are to be a good shepherd who protects the sheep, isn't it?
If one fail to judge between a wolf and a sheep, then they can only read Jesus' words, but are not able to apply them.
Jesus started his statements with "Beware".

Matthew 7:15, 16
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them.

Imagine you went to a house, and there is this sign on the gate

This thing on four legs comes up to the gate, but you don't want to judge it, and so you reach your hand over the gate to give it a friendly greeting.

I think its when there us not a sign and theres a dog lol. You enter and from around the corner comes a big dog. If its tails wagging then thank God. But if its not then your doing your best impression of 'nice boy, good boy' lol.

CoreyD said:
If we don't make judgments in this world, we would not be applying the scriptures at all, would we. Worst yet, we would be in serious trouble.
For example, the scriptures say...
Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Proverbs 13:20

Would we not identify who are fools... not that they do not have intelligence, but they lack good moral values, or are ungodly?
We would, if we want to protect our spiritual values, and even those of our children.
We would not want our children hanging out with youths who do drugs, used profanity, or engage in immoral talk and conduct, would we.

In the same way, we want to protect the flock - our spiritual brothers and sisters, as you nicely explained.
I think generally, people know this quite well, but why religion is excluded, is simply because it's a comfort zone to be in, when we take the position, that we are not to judge religion, or religious beliefs.

People know this as well.
They may not want to hear it though.

Thats why I think the teachings around marriage and the family are so foundational. At leasy hopefully in a free society Christians can live the teachings in this respect. Though it seems these values are becoming outdated.

But just like the family the church community is similar in that we can as a church be seperate and our own family with Christian teachings and values.

But I like the family it is being encroached on and I think much of Paul and the disciples and overseers was protecting the Christian community and holding true to the Christian family values in a world that often worked against this if not hated this.

timothyu · Monday at 10:07 AM

stevevw said:
Do you mean that we are to serve others regardless of what side they take.

We are to act in servitude to all in need yes, for regardless of side, they are trapped in the world we have made in our own image which runs contrary to the Kingdom. Neither side there is right and we are the option, the counter-culture.

timothyu · Monday at 10:14 AM

stevevw said:
just claiming biblical truths is seen as oppressive in applying a single truth over peoples experiences and self truths.

Reminds me of the actions of the people while Moses was off on walkabout on the mountain.

stevevw · Tuesday at 6:49 AM

timothyu said:
We are to act in servitude to all in need yes, for regardless of side, they are trapped in the world we have made in our own image which runs contrary to the Kingdom. Neither side there is right and we are the option, the counter-culture.

The "counter-culture". I like that. It seems ironic in some ways. The counter culture was breaking the rules and living free and easy. Now its the opposite. The culture the counter culture was to replace has itself become the counter culture.

Well not really as the world still likes its freedom. But I think there is a swing towards tradition.

I think Peters letters are very radical as far as being a servant and subject to others. He mentions being subject to authorities even if they are unjust. Because by being obedient to God and pure exposes the unjust acts and turns peoples heads to God without a word spoken.

Its a powerful and radical disposition to take. But it is like Christ when he was arrested and unfairly persecuted. It is like the disciples and many Christians who were persecuted by the society they lived in. Rather than rise up and overthrow the authorities they quietly and consistently remained true to the gospel.

It was this meekness and goodness that even turned some pagans to God when they seen the Christlike example without any or little words. Just a simple message of hope and salvation and self sacrifice. Nothing political or subversive. Just being Christlike.

timothyu · Tuesday at 12:03 PM

stevevw said:
Rather than rise up and overthrow the authorities they quietly and consistently remained true to the gospel.

Yes, it is not the flesh but the will of the Father that matters. We need to place ourselves second. Whether sonner or later the flesh is only temporary anyways. People like to think it is all about us. Not so. It is about 'Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done'. Those loyal will find a place.

Believers being bullied by other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

inquisitive

Newbie

inquisitive

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

inquisitive

Well-Known Member

inquisitive

inquisitive

inquisitive

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

inquisitive

Well-Known Member

Similar threads