Who is really responsible for Salvation?

Mercy Shown said:

While God’s love and mercy are vast (Psalm 103:8–12; John 3:16), Scripture consistently teaches that salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith in Christ (John 3:18; Mark 1:15). The idea that all will be saved—often called universalism—contradicts the clear warnings of eternal separation from God for those who reject Him (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:8–9).

Jesus Himself spoke of two distinct destinies: the narrow way that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13–14). Revelation describes a final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

God truly desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3–4), yet He does not force salvation upon anyone. Love by compulsion is not love at all. Those who persist in rejecting His Son remain under condemnation (John 3:36).

Thus, while God’s invitation is universal, the Bible affirms that its acceptance is not.

Click to expand...

Dear Mercy Shown,
Your beliefs ignore the teaching of many scriptures.

Salvation is by "promise" (Gal 3:18) and is not conditional upon man's works. Salvation only requires the works of Christ. That is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

So how can this be true since scripture says (as you pointed out) that faith and repentance from works are required for salvation?

What you are omitting from your understanding is that Christ is the cause of a person's faith and repentance from works. Under the New Covenant, Christ's works are spiritual works that change a person from within. Christ causes mankind to "will" and to speak and to act. The teaching that mankind has a free will ability is a lie from Satan. Only God has a free will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When a believer states that they have a free will ability, they are sitting in God's Temple claiming to be God. This is the common denominator that all apostate believers have.

When Christ is ready for a person to have faith and repent from their works, He will come to them and freely give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. He gives them this gift without their asking for it and without their permission to give it to them.

In the farming analogy, this gift is called the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what the Apostles received while they walked with Christ and it is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. After Christ gave them the Early Rain, they all recognized Jesus as the Christ and they called Him "Lord". So why do we know this is what happened to them. The verse below explains why they had to have been given the Early Rain:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ doesn't give a person the small measure of the Holy Spirit, they will continue in their rejection of Christ until they die. The only way a person can have faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord is if Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Once they have this gift, they can no longer reject Christ. It is in this way that Christ builds His church. It is solely by His work. The person has nothing that can take credit for concerning their faith and their repentance. It was Christ who prepared their heart with the Early Rain and was the one who gave them the answer from their tongue. If Christ wanted the entire world to believe in Him today, all He would have to do is give each person the Early Rain.

You said:
Jesus Himself spoke of two distinct destinies: the narrow way that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13–14). Revelation describes a final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

In this age, God the Father chose certain individuals before the foundation of the world to be saved in this present age. They are the Elect, the heirs of Abraham, the Bride of Christ, the saints, etc. They did not choose Christ, Christ chose them.

Those who are not chosen for salvation in this age will be rejected upon their resurrection and be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol that represents Christ's judgment. His judgment is for the purpose of enforcing the penalty of the Law upon a person for their sins. That penalty is death and not eternal torment in literal fire.

Fire is Christ's spirit word that means judgment. The word that is translated as "eternal" should be translated as "age-during". When Christ casts a person into the Lake of Fire, it is only for a certain portion of that age. At that time, they will be judged by the Law and will experience wrath & torment. But as I have been explaining to FutureAndAHope, Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ will not omit justice, mercy and faith from His judgment (Mat 23:23). Before anyone perishes from their time of judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and freely give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit just as He earlier did for the Elect. After the lost person has this gift of the Spirit, they will have faith and will be "born again" as a child of God. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven leaving the child of the Devil (who they used to be) in the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. After the child of the Devil's destruction, the person will be converted. And like with the Elect, Christ will cause it all to happen. Mankind's salvation is 100% His responsibility and He accomplishes it by His spiritual work within a person.

You said:
God truly desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3–4), yet He does not force salvation upon anyone. Love by compulsion is not love at all. Those who persist in rejecting His Son remain under condemnation (John 3:36).

First of all, 1Tim 2:3-6 does not say "desires", it says "will have". I have heard this argument many times before and it makes little sense. Why? Because "desires" is an emotion and does not require anything to happen to prove that one has it. It merely needs to be stated. But when you read 1Tim 2:3-6, it says that saving all men and having them come to the knowledge of the truth will be testified in due time. In other words, a future event will occur that proves the statement. The only event that can testify to the truth that Christ will save all men and have them come unto the knowledge of the truth is for it to happen. And it will happen just before the end of the final age arrives. When that day comes, it will give glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Secondly, even if "desires" is the proper translation, it makes no difference on the outcome of the statement. Why? Because God always accomplishes His desires.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You said:
Thus, while God’s invitation is universal, the Bible affirms that its acceptance is not.

Your comment shows that you are mixing man's works with faith (mixing the Old and New Covenants). When a believer adds their own works to faith in Christ to do all the works, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine. This of course happens to each babe because Christ causes it to happen - it is part of the pathway that He causes all babes to follow.

These verses apply:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a harlot is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (represents man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

When a babe (Early Rain only) mixes the Old Wine with the New Wine, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to their spiritual death. With this sin, they are following the crooked way of Satan and have become apostate. Again, since the death of Paul, this happens to all babes in Christ.

This verse applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babe who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

A babe's spiritual blindness (Paul's blindness after receiving the Early Rain) is the reason why all babes will fall from grace and become apostate.

If the babe is one of the Elect, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). This is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days. No one can deviate from this pathway. For babes who are not Elect, they will die in their sins and upon their resurrection, Christ will tell them that He never knew them. They will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. But in the end, they will still be saved.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,
Your beliefs ignore the teaching of many scriptures.

Salvation is by "promise" (Gal 3:18) and is not conditional upon man's works. Salvation only requires the works of Christ. That is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

So how can this be true since scripture says (as you pointed out) that faith and repentance from works are required for salvation?

What you are omitting from your understanding is that Christ is the cause of a person's faith and repentance from works. Under the New Covenant, Christ's works are spiritual works that change a person from within. Christ causes mankind to "will" and to speak and to act. The teaching that mankind has a free will ability is a lie from Satan. Only God has a free will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When a believer states that they have a free will ability, they are sitting in God's Temple claiming to be God. This is the common denominator that all apostate believers have.

When Christ is ready for a person to have faith and repent from their works, He will come to them and freely give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. He gives them this gift without their asking for it and without their permission to give it to them.

In the farming analogy, this gift is called the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what the Apostles received while they walked with Christ and it is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. After Christ gave them the Early Rain, they all recognized Jesus as the Christ and they called Him "Lord". So why do we know this is what happened to them. The verse below explains why they had to have been given the Early Rain:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ doesn't give a person the small measure of the Holy Spirit, they will continue in their rejection of Christ until they die. The only way a person can have faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord is if Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Once they have this gift, they can no longer reject Christ. It is in this way that Christ builds His church. It is solely by His work. The person has nothing that can take credit for concerning their faith and their repentance. It was Christ who prepared their heart with the Early Rain and was the one who gave them the answer from their tongue. If Christ wanted the entire world to believe in Him today, all He would have to do is give each person the Early Rain.

You said:
Jesus Himself spoke of two distinct destinies: the narrow way that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13–14). Revelation describes a final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

In this age, God the Father chose certain individuals before the foundation of the world to be saved in this present age. They are the Elect, the heirs of Abraham, the Bride of Christ, the saints, etc. They did not choose Christ, Christ chose them.

Those who are not chosen for salvation in this age will be rejected upon their resurrection and be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol that represents Christ's judgment. His judgment is for the purpose of enforcing the penalty of the Law upon a person for their sins. That penalty is death and not eternal torment in literal fire.

Fire is Christ's spirit word that means judgment. The word that is translated as "eternal" should be translated as "age-during". When Christ casts a person into the Lake of Fire, it is only for a certain portion of that age. At that time, they will be judged by the Law and will experience wrath & torment. But as I have been explaining to FutureAndAHope, Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ will not omit justice, mercy and faith from His judgment (Mat 23:23). Before anyone perishes from their time of judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and freely give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit just as He earlier did for the Elect. After the lost person has this gift of the Spirit, they will have faith and will be "born again" as a child of God. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven leaving the child of the Devil (who they used to be) in the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. After the child of the Devil's destruction, the person will be converted. And like with the Elect, Christ will cause it all to happen. Mankind's salvation is 100% His responsibility and He accomplishes it by His spiritual work within a person.

You said:
God truly desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3–4), yet He does not force salvation upon anyone. Love by compulsion is not love at all. Those who persist in rejecting His Son remain under condemnation (John 3:36).

First of all, 1Tim 2:3-6 does not say "desires", it says "will have". I have heard this argument many times before and it makes little sense. Why? Because "desires" is an emotion and does not require anything to happen to prove that one has it. It merely needs to be stated. But when you read 1Tim 2:3-6, it says that saving all men and having them come to the knowledge of the truth will be testified in due time. In other words, a future event will occur that proves the statement. The only event that can testify to the truth that Christ will save all men and have them come unto the knowledge of the truth is for it to happen. And it will happen just before the end of the final age arrives. When that day comes, it will give glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Secondly, even if "desires" is the proper translation, it makes no difference on the outcome of the statement. Why? Because God always accomplishes His desires.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You said:
Thus, while God’s invitation is universal, the Bible affirms that its acceptance is not.

Your comment shows that you are mixing man's works with faith (mixing the Old and New Covenants). When a believer adds their own works to faith in Christ to do all the works, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine. This of course happens to each babe because Christ causes it to happen - it is part of the pathway that He causes all babes to follow.

These verses apply:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a harlot is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (represents man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

When a babe (Early Rain only) mixes the Old Wine with the New Wine, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to their spiritual death. With this sin, they are following the crooked way of Satan and have become apostate. Again, since the death of Paul, this happens to all babes in Christ.

This verse applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babe who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

A babe's spiritual blindness (Paul's blindness after receiving the Early Rain) is the reason why all babes will fall from grace and become apostate.

If the babe is one of the Elect, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). This is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days. No one can deviate from this pathway. For babes who are not Elect, they will die in their sins and upon their resurrection, Christ will tell them that He never knew them. They will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. But in the end, they will still be saved.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

Click to expand...

These are nice sentiments but they ignore scripture. Here are just a few.
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

Here’s a clear summary with supporting verses:

1. They remain under God’s wrath

John 3:36 – "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Persistent rejection doesn’t just forfeit blessings—it leaves a person under existing condemnation.

2. They will face eternal separation from God

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9 – "…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

This is one of the clearest NT statements that rejection of God results in everlasting exclusion from His presence.

3. They will be judged according to their deeds

Hebrews 9:27 – "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

Revelation 20:11–15 – "…And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done… And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

4. God gives them over to their own choices

Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28 – "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth… Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts…"

Persistent rejection leads to God allowing them to follow their desires, which results in deeper moral and spiritual ruin.

5. They cannot claim ignorance—God has revealed Himself

Romans 1:20 – "For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived… so they are without excuse."

6. They will not inherit the kingdom of God

Galatians 5:19–21 – "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Revelation 21:8 – "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable… their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him. Jesus makes it clear in John 3:19 that the basis of Judgement is what we love. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Here’s what it’s teaching:

1. The “light” refers to Jesus

In John’s Gospel, light is a recurring metaphor for truth, holiness, and the revelation of God (John 1:4–5, 8:12).

Jesus coming into the world is the decisive moment of God’s truth and salvation being made available.

2. The judgment is based on response to the light

This isn’t judgment in the sense of God arbitrarily condemning people—it’s the reality that people’s reaction to Jesus reveals their spiritual state.

The coming of light exposes hearts for what they are.

3. People’s rejection is rooted in love for sin

The reason given is not intellectual disagreement but moral preference: “people loved darkness rather than the light.”

Darkness means ignorance of God, falsehood, and sin.

This shows rejection of God is a willful choice, driven by affection for sin rather than a lack of evidence.

4. Evil deeds create hostility toward God’s truth

Light exposes evil (John 3:20). Those committed to sinful lifestyles resist exposure and thus reject Christ.

This explains why the gospel meets not only apathy but sometimes hostility—truth unmasks sin, and many prefer to hide.

Mercy Shown said:

These are nice sentiments but they ignore scripture. Here are just a few.
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

Here’s a clear summary with supporting verses:

1. They remain under God’s wrath

John 3:36 – "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Persistent rejection doesn’t just forfeit blessings—it leaves a person under existing condemnation.

2. They will face eternal separation from God

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9 – "…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

This is one of the clearest NT statements that rejection of God results in everlasting exclusion from His presence.

3. They will be judged according to their deeds

Hebrews 9:27 – "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

Revelation 20:11–15 – "…And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done… And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

4. God gives them over to their own choices

Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28 – "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth… Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts…"

Persistent rejection leads to God allowing them to follow their desires, which results in deeper moral and spiritual ruin.

5. They cannot claim ignorance—God has revealed Himself

Romans 1:20 – "For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived… so they are without excuse."

6. They will not inherit the kingdom of God

Galatians 5:19–21 – "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Revelation 21:8 – "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable… their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him. Jesus makes it clear in John 3:19 that the basis of Judgement is what we love. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Here’s what it’s teaching:

1. The “light” refers to Jesus

In John’s Gospel, light is a recurring metaphor for truth, holiness, and the revelation of God (John 1:4–5, 8:12).

Jesus coming into the world is the decisive moment of God’s truth and salvation being made available.

2. The judgment is based on response to the light

This isn’t judgment in the sense of God arbitrarily condemning people—it’s the reality that people’s reaction to Jesus reveals their spiritual state.

The coming of light exposes hearts for what they are.

3. People’s rejection is rooted in love for sin

The reason given is not intellectual disagreement but moral preference: “people loved darkness rather than the light.”

Darkness means ignorance of God, falsehood, and sin.

This shows rejection of God is a willful choice, driven by affection for sin rather than a lack of evidence.

4. Evil deeds create hostility toward God’s truth

Light exposes evil (John 3:20). Those committed to sinful lifestyles resist exposure and thus reject Christ.

This explains why the gospel meets not only apathy but sometimes hostility—truth unmasks sin, and many prefer to hide.

Click to expand...

Dear Mercy Shown,

You said:
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

All mankind in their natural state will always reject Christ and will always disobey Him. If you can't accept this simple truth, you are not going to understand why the spiritual process of conversion is necessary for a person's salvation.

Here is mankind's natural state of being:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Because all mankind has sinned, all mankind has become the children of the Devil (1John 3:8-10). As a result, all mankind is "condemned already" because of their sin (John 3:18). Nothing can change that fate that awaits them as John 3:36 states. Because death is the fate that awaits all mankind, it is necessary for Christ to convert all the children of the Devil into the children of God BEFORE they perish from the penalty of the Law.

This change is mankind's salvation and is solely Christ's work to perform.

The change from being a child of the Devil into being a child of God is what Christ does to save a person. The spiritual process that Christ uses to make this change is called conversion.

Conversion from a child of the Devil into a child of God cannot be seen with human eyes because it is a spiritual change. This truth is what Christ was teaching in the verse below:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

By the end of the final age, Christ will have converted all mankind into the children of God. After the last person of mankind has been converted, 100% of the children of the Devil will have perished in the Lake of Fire.

As the verse below states, only a person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can call Jesus "Lord". These people are the children of God.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If you can't understand the concept of conversion, you are not going to understand many of the New Covenant teachings of Christ.

All six points that you listed in your post about the children of the Devil are true. I have never stated differently. But what you are missing is that Christ will convert all the children of the Devil into the children of God prior to the child of the Devil's destruction. You don't seem to understand the spiritual process of conversion and why it is necessary for salvation.

I will respond to one more of your comments.

You said:
While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him.

The natural man is a child of the Devil. This applies to all mankind. The spiritual man is a converted believer. He is no longer a natural man because he has been converted. I will go with the assumption that you understand them in this way.

So you believe that the natural man does not have a free will ability??? I'm puzzled because that belief seems to contradict some of what you have written in your posts. However, that understanding is true. No one has a free will ability.

Let me ask you this: Since the natural man has no free will ability to be able to have faith in Christ and accept Him as Lord (per the verses I quoted at the start of this post), what must happen to the natural man to change him into a believer?

Could it be that Christ must give the natural man the Holy Spirit so that the natural man will become a spiritual man who accepts Christ? And since the natural man does not seek after God or understand Him, it is necessary for Christ to give the Spirit to the natural man without his asking or permission.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The "spiritual man" is a converted believer who is a child of God. He has been given both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. It is this judgment that destroys the natural man (a child of the Devil who disobeys God). Because the spiritual man is governed by the Holy Spirit, they will never reject the "purpose of God for him". And just like Christ, the spiritual man is willing to lay down his life rather than disobey God.

Contrary to your beliefs though, the spiritual man does not have a free will ability. He walks by the Spirit and only does what the Spirit directs him to do. As I have stated, only God has a free will ability.

Joe

FutureAndAHope said:

Calvinism paints a picture of a God who preplanned the salvation of each individual, that the number that was to be saved was fixed before creation, and that the will or actions of man play no part in man's eternal destiny. As stated in The Westminster Confession of Faith:

God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)​

​

The idea (above) of God fixing destinies was not believed for the first 400 years of recorded Christian history. Those who came directly after the Apostles believed our actions determine if we are saved. The Earliest Church Leaders believed in Free Will theology. The idea that we work in Synergy with God, that our actions, either good or evil, determine if we are saved. Making statements like:

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

​

So what am I posting today? Well, I was doing my daily Bible reading, and came across the following which supports the Free Will, argument.

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: 'I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.' But now the LORD says: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.​

​

Firstly, it shows that God's plan is not fixed, that when He decrees a thing, He does change His mind, based upon man's actions. If everything was predestined, then He would "know all things", and would never have made the statement.

Secondly, it shows there is an action of man's that brings God's honor, or displeasure.

for those who honor Me I will honor​

and

and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed​

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God is responsible.
We however, must choose to accept it.
The invitation is open to all.
We must rsvp. Respond

God is not a dictator nor a tyrant.
He knocks politely and enters if we open the door.
He desires to reason with us, to offer protection from impending destruction.
Judgment is inevitable, and none are worthy, nor capable under their own volition of passing from spiritual death to life.
He has done all the work.
What is required is that we willfully enter into covenant and submit not only to His protective guardianship, but become full members of His family.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,

You said:
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

All mankind in their natural state will always reject Christ and will always disobey Him. If you can't accept this simple truth, you are not going to understand why the spiritual process of conversion is necessary for a person's salvation.

Here is mankind's natural state of being:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Because all mankind has sinned, all mankind has become the children of the Devil (1John 3:8-10). As a result, all mankind is "condemned already" because of their sin (John 3:18). Nothing can change that fate that awaits them as John 3:36 states. Because death is the fate that awaits all mankind, it is necessary for Christ to convert all the children of the Devil into the children of God BEFORE they perish from the penalty of the Law.

This change is mankind's salvation and is solely Christ's work to perform.

The change from being a child of the Devil into being a child of God is what Christ does to save a person. The spiritual process that Christ uses to make this change is called conversion.

Conversion from a child of the Devil into a child of God cannot be seen with human eyes because it is a spiritual change. This truth is what Christ was teaching in the verse below:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

By the end of the final age, Christ will have converted all mankind into the children of God. After the last person of mankind has been converted, 100% of the children of the Devil will have perished in the Lake of Fire.

As the verse below states, only a person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can call Jesus "Lord". These people are the children of God.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If you can't understand the concept of conversion, you are not going to understand many of the New Covenant teachings of Christ.

All six points that you listed in your post about the children of the Devil are true. I have never stated differently. But what you are missing is that Christ will convert all the children of the Devil into the children of God prior to the child of the Devil's destruction. You don't seem to understand the spiritual process of conversion and why it is necessary for salvation.

I will respond to one more of your comments.

You said:
While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him.

The natural man is a child of the Devil. This applies to all mankind. The spiritual man is a converted believer. He is no longer a natural man because he has been converted. I will go with the assumption that you understand them in this way.

So you believe that the natural man does not have a free will ability??? I'm puzzled because that belief seems to contradict some of what you have written in your posts. However, that understanding is true. No one has a free will ability.

Let me ask you this: Since the natural man has no free will ability to be able to have faith in Christ and accept Him as Lord (per the verses I quoted at the start of this post), what must happen to the natural man to change him into a believer?

Could it be that Christ must give the natural man the Holy Spirit so that the natural man will become a spiritual man who accepts Christ? And since the natural man does not seek after God or understand Him, it is necessary for Christ to give the Spirit to the natural man without his asking or permission.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The "spiritual man" is a converted believer who is a child of God. He has been given both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. It is this judgment that destroys the natural man (a child of the Devil who disobeys God). Because the spiritual man is governed by the Holy Spirit, they will never reject the "purpose of God for him". And just like Christ, the spiritual man is willing to lay down his life rather than disobey God.

Contrary to your beliefs though, the spiritual man does not have a free will ability. He walks by the Spirit and only does what the Spirit directs him to do. As I have stated, only God has a free will ability.

Joe

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You must have a radically different definition of “eternal.”

Matthew 25:46​

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Daniel 12:2​

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

I think it is pretty clear as to what God says about this.

Mercy Shown said:

You must have a radically different definition of “eternal.”

Matthew 25:46​

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Daniel 12:2​

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

I think it is pretty clear as to what God says about this.

Click to expand...

Dear Mercy Shown,
Over the centuries, the translation of scripture has been done by apostate believers who believe in false doctrines like the doctrines of Free Will and Eternal Hell. Because they have these false beliefs, they have translated certain verses to make them conform to their beliefs. This is especially true for verses that contain the Greek words "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios".

“Aion” means an age of time and “aionios” means age-during or pertaining to the age.

The ages are a very important concept in scripture. God’s creation only pertains to the ages, and once the ages come to an end, so will the reign of Christ.

With this concept in mind, let’s look at how the KJV translates “aion” in the verse below:

Here is an example:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for ever and ever! (aion aion) Amen! (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the ages of the ages! (aion aion) Amen! (YLT)

The phrase "ages of the ages" comes from “aion aion”. This phrase cannot mean “for ever and ever” as the KJV translates it because of what Paul says below:

1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ's reign comes to an end after He destroys the last enemy of death. This happens after the last person of mankind has been saved. Christ will not reign for ever and ever as the KJV says in Rev 11:15.

And likewise, the same error occurs in this verse:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion aion) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (aion aion) (YLT)

We can know that the YLT is correct because the Lake of Fire is the judgment of Christ which will come to an end after the last person of mankind has been converted. Judgment will not last “for ever and ever” once its has been satisfied.

Below is a verse that uses the Greek word “aionios”. It is the adjective form of “aion”.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (aionios) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during (aionios): but the righteous to life age-during. (aionios) (YLT)

The verse above is contrasting what happens to the two different groups of people during the final age (the goats and the sheep). The goats will receive judgment while the sheep will have life. It is not addressing what happens to them outside of the ages.

And since Rev 20:10 says that judgment is only for the “ages of the ages”, punishment is likewise only for the age. It is not “everlasting” as the KJV says.

Here is how Christ judges mankind in the Lake of Fire:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his Sun (Christ) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early & Latter Rains) on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Since the penalty of sin is death, Christ's individual judgment of a person (Luke 12:43-48) will end after each child of the Devil (all mankind) has perished. However, before any person perishes, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy will come to them as the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person will have faith and be "born again" as a new creation; a child of God. The newly born child of God is without sin so he will come out from Christ's judgment. However, the child of the Devil's judgment will continue until he has perished. This death will satisfy justice. After all mankind has perished n the Lake of Fire, Christ's judgment will come to an end. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father (now containing all mankind) which will give the Father "glory". God will then be "all in all" (within all mankind).

These scriptures apply:

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

d taylor said:

-
​

What about it, Jesus has taken care of that issue and closed the door. The only condition God gives to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is belief in Jesus.

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A person does not know or believe in Jesus Christ if he does not obey his commandments.

Luke 6:46 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but fail to do what I tell you?

1 John 2:4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That is why everyone will be judged by their fruits/works to determine if they only talked the talk or actually walked the walk.

James 1:22 Be doers of the word and not just hearers who only deceive themselves. Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-30

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

“Aion” means an age of time and “aionios” means age-during or pertaining to the age.

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Then you must not believe God is eternal.

1. Romans 16:26

“…according to the command of the eternal God (θεοῦ αἰωνίου, theou aiōníou)…”

Here Paul explicitly calls God αἰώνιος → “eternal,” not bound by time.

2. 1 Timothy 6:16 (indirect but related)

God is described as the one who “alone has immortality” (ἀθανασία), which ties conceptually to His eternal nature. While αἰώνιος isn’t used here, it supports the same idea.

3. Hebrews 9:14

“…Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (πνεύματος αἰωνίου, pneumatos aiōníou) offered Himself without blemish to God…”

The Holy Spirit is called αἰώνιος → eternal, timeless.

4. 1 Timothy 1:17 (again, not αἰώνιος but closely parallel)

“To the King of the ages (βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων), immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.”
This uses the plural of αἰών (ages), closely tied to the same root.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,
Over the centuries, the translation of scripture has been done by apostate believers who believe in false doctrines like the doctrines of Free Will and Eternal Hell. Because they have these false beliefs, they have translated certain verses to make them conform to their beliefs. This is especially true for verses that contain the Greek words "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios".

“Aion” means an age of time and “aionios” means age-during or pertaining to the age.

The ages are a very important concept in scripture. God’s creation only pertains to the ages, and once the ages come to an end, so will the reign of Christ.

With this concept in mind, let’s look at how the KJV translates “aion” in the verse below:

Here is an example:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for ever and ever! (aion aion) Amen! (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the ages of the ages! (aion aion) Amen! (YLT)

The phrase "ages of the ages" comes from “aion aion”. This phrase cannot mean “for ever and ever” as the KJV translates it because of what Paul says below:

1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ's reign comes to an end after He destroys the last enemy of death. This happens after the last person of mankind has been saved. Christ will not reign for ever and ever as the KJV says in Rev 11:15.

And likewise, the same error occurs in this verse:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion aion) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (aion aion) (YLT)

We can know that the YLT is correct because the Lake of Fire is the judgment of Christ which will come to an end after the last person of mankind has been converted. Judgment will not last “for ever and ever” once its has been satisfied.

Below is a verse that uses the Greek word “aionios”. It is the adjective form of “aion”.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (aionios) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during (aionios): but the righteous to life age-during. (aionios) (YLT)

The verse above is contrasting what happens to the two different groups of people during the final age (the goats and the sheep). The goats will receive judgment while the sheep will have life. It is not addressing what happens to them outside of the ages.

And since Rev 20:10 says that judgment is only for the “ages of the ages”, punishment is likewise only for the age. It is not “everlasting” as the KJV says.

Here is how Christ judges mankind in the Lake of Fire:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his Sun (Christ) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early & Latter Rains) on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Since the penalty of sin is death, Christ's individual judgment of a person (Luke 12:43-48) will end after each child of the Devil (all mankind) has perished. However, before any person perishes, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy will come to them as the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person will have faith and be "born again" as a new creation; a child of God. The newly born child of God is without sin so he will come out from Christ's judgment. However, the child of the Devil's judgment will continue until he has perished. This death will satisfy justice. After all mankind has perished n the Lake of Fire, Christ's judgment will come to an end. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father (now containing all mankind) which will give the Father "glory". God will then be "all in all" (within all mankind).

These scriptures apply:

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

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Main Points & Rebuttals

Claim: Bible translators were apostates who forced false doctrines (free will, eternal hell) into translations.
Rebuttal: This is an assertion without historical evidence. Many translators were devout and sought accuracy; translation choices reflect scholarship, not conspiracy.

Claim: “Aion” means “age” and “aionios” means “age-during,” not “eternal.”
Rebuttal: Lexicons show “aion” can mean both “age” and “eternity,” depending on context. “Aionios” in Koine Greek often carried the sense of “everlasting” (e.g., eternal life in John 3:16).

Claim: Christ’s reign ends when death is destroyed (1 Cor 15:25–28), so “aion aion” cannot mean “forever and ever.”
Rebuttal: Paul distinguishes Christ’s mediatorial reign from His eternal kingship. Ending one role does not mean His reign as Lord ceases (cf. Luke 1:33).

Claim: Revelation 20:10 says torment lasts only “for the ages of the ages,” not “forever.”
Rebuttal: The phrase “eis tous aionas ton aionon” is the strongest Greek expression for endless duration, used consistently for God’s own eternal existence (Rev 4:9–10).

Claim: Matthew 25:46 shows “aionios” punishment is only for an age, not everlasting.
Rebuttal: The verse parallels punishment and life with the same word “aionios.” If punishment is temporary, so is life—an inconsistent reading.

Claim: Judgment (Lake of Fire) ends when all are saved and made new; God will be “all in all.”
Rebuttal: Universalism reads texts selectively. Passages about eternal judgment (e.g., 2 Thess 1:9, Matt 25:41) are clear; “all in all” describes God’s ultimate sovereignty, not universal salvation.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,
Over the centuries, the translation of scripture has been done by apostate believers who believe in false doctrines like the doctrines of Free Will and Eternal Hell. Because they have these false beliefs, they have translated certain verses to make them conform to their beliefs. This is especially true for verses that contain the Greek words "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios".

“Aion” means an age of time and “aionios” means age-during or pertaining to the age.

The ages are a very important concept in scripture. God’s creation only pertains to the ages, and once the ages come to an end, so will the reign of Christ.

With this concept in mind, let’s look at how the KJV translates “aion” in the verse below:

Here is an example:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for ever and ever! (aion aion) Amen! (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the ages of the ages! (aion aion) Amen! (YLT)

The phrase "ages of the ages" comes from “aion aion”. This phrase cannot mean “for ever and ever” as the KJV translates it because of what Paul says below:

1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ's reign comes to an end after He destroys the last enemy of death. This happens after the last person of mankind has been saved. Christ will not reign for ever and ever as the KJV says in Rev 11:15.

And likewise, the same error occurs in this verse:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion aion) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (aion aion) (YLT)

We can know that the YLT is correct because the Lake of Fire is the judgment of Christ which will come to an end after the last person of mankind has been converted. Judgment will not last “for ever and ever” once its has been satisfied.

Below is a verse that uses the Greek word “aionios”. It is the adjective form of “aion”.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (aionios) (KJV)

Here is the correct translation:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during (aionios): but the righteous to life age-during. (aionios) (YLT)

The verse above is contrasting what happens to the two different groups of people during the final age (the goats and the sheep). The goats will receive judgment while the sheep will have life. It is not addressing what happens to them outside of the ages.

And since Rev 20:10 says that judgment is only for the “ages of the ages”, punishment is likewise only for the age. It is not “everlasting” as the KJV says.

Here is how Christ judges mankind in the Lake of Fire:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his Sun (Christ) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early & Latter Rains) on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Since the penalty of sin is death, Christ's individual judgment of a person (Luke 12:43-48) will end after each child of the Devil (all mankind) has perished. However, before any person perishes, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy will come to them as the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person will have faith and be "born again" as a new creation; a child of God. The newly born child of God is without sin so he will come out from Christ's judgment. However, the child of the Devil's judgment will continue until he has perished. This death will satisfy justice. After all mankind has perished n the Lake of Fire, Christ's judgment will come to an end. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father (now containing all mankind) which will give the Father "glory". God will then be "all in all" (within all mankind).

These scriptures apply:

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

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αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

aionios means eternal indeed. Maybe there is a UR only interlinear out there.

Mercy Shown said:

Then you must not believe God is eternal.

1. Romans 16:26

“…according to the command of the eternal God (θεοῦ αἰωνίου, theou aiōníou)…”

Here Paul explicitly calls God αἰώνιος → “eternal,” not bound by time.

2. 1 Timothy 6:16 (indirect but related)

God is described as the one who “alone has immortality” (ἀθανασία), which ties conceptually to His eternal nature. While αἰώνιος isn’t used here, it supports the same idea.

3. Hebrews 9:14

“…Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (πνεύματος αἰωνίου, pneumatos aiōníou) offered Himself without blemish to God…”

The Holy Spirit is called αἰώνιος → eternal, timeless.

4. 1 Timothy 1:17 (again, not αἰώνιος but closely parallel)

“To the King of the ages (βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων), immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.”
This uses the plural of αἰών (ages), closely tied to the same root.

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Dear Mercy Shown,

Scripture primarily teaches about the events that happen during the ages. It rarely mentions anything that happens before the ages began or after they will end. Because scriptures is teaching about the ages, it will say that Christ is the God of the ages, that He reigns during the ages and has honor, power & might during the ages, etc. When scripture want to say that Christ is eternal, it will say that He is incorruptible, immortal, has no end or words to that effect.

Here are the proper translations of the verses you quoted:

Rom 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

Scripture teaches what happens during the ages. Christ is the God of the ages. He is also immortal but that is not what Rom 16:26 is addressing here but it does so in your next quoted verse:

1Tim 16:6 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.

The start of this scripture says that Christ is immortal. At the end of the verse it refers to the honor and might that Christ possesses during the ages - the time that Christ reigns over mankind. Once the ages end, so will the reign of Christ over mankind. Why would the verse say that Christ is immortal at the beginning and then repeat that truth at the end of the verse? It would be redundant and unnecessary.

That same problem of redundancy occurs when "aion aion" is translated as "forever and ever":

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Doesn't forever mean without end? Why would the verse need to add another "ever" to "forever"? Does doing that make forever an even longer period of time? That translation makes no sense but this one does:

Rev 19:3 and a second time they said, 'Alleluia;' and her smoke doth come up -- to the ages of the ages!

As I said earlier, scripture primarily only teaches about the things that happen during the ages. It is mostly silent outside of the ages.

Here is your next quoted verse:

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

When it says "age-during Spirit", it does not mean that the Spirit only exists during the ages. You should not read into it that way.

1Tim 1:17 and to the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Why would the verse say "eternal King" and then say that the King is also immortal since they mean the same thing. The correct translation is saying that Christ is the King of the ages and that He is also immortal.

Joe

Mercy Shown said:

Main Points & Rebuttals

Claim: Bible translators were apostates who forced false doctrines (free will, eternal hell) into translations.
Rebuttal: This is an assertion without historical evidence. Many translators were devout and sought accuracy; translation choices reflect scholarship, not conspiracy.

Claim: “Aion” means “age” and “aionios” means “age-during,” not “eternal.”
Rebuttal: Lexicons show “aion” can mean both “age” and “eternity,” depending on context. “Aionios” in Koine Greek often carried the sense of “everlasting” (e.g., eternal life in John 3:16).

Claim: Christ’s reign ends when death is destroyed (1 Cor 15:25–28), so “aion aion” cannot mean “forever and ever.”
Rebuttal: Paul distinguishes Christ’s mediatorial reign from His eternal kingship. Ending one role does not mean His reign as Lord ceases (cf. Luke 1:33).

Claim: Revelation 20:10 says torment lasts only “for the ages of the ages,” not “forever.”
Rebuttal: The phrase “eis tous aionas ton aionon” is the strongest Greek expression for endless duration, used consistently for God’s own eternal existence (Rev 4:9–10).

Claim: Matthew 25:46 shows “aionios” punishment is only for an age, not everlasting.
Rebuttal: The verse parallels punishment and life with the same word “aionios.” If punishment is temporary, so is life—an inconsistent reading.

Claim: Judgment (Lake of Fire) ends when all are saved and made new; God will be “all in all.”
Rebuttal: Universalism reads texts selectively. Passages about eternal judgment (e.g., 2 Thess 1:9, Matt 25:41) are clear; “all in all” describes God’s ultimate sovereignty, not universal salvation.

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Dear Mercy Shown,
You are twisting the scriptures to make them say what you want them to say. I see this problem all the time with other people on the forum.

I will respond in general to what you stated in your post.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Christ has eternal Kingship. That is a false teaching and comes from incorrect translations.

Who would Christ need to reign over after the ages come to an end anyway? By the end of the final age, all mankind will be converted into the children of God who are fully governed by the Holy Spirit. The Lake of Fire is will also be ended because the children of the Devil have all perished from that judgment.

You are understanding Christ's reign as mankind defines a king's reign. Christ's reign is different - it is for the loving purpose of completing the mission that His Father gave Him:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

After Christ has accomplished the work His Father gave Him to complete, Christ's reign will end.

Why do you believe Christ is going to fail to complete the work His Father gave Him to complete?

Christ is mankind's God and never fails at anything. If He were to fail to save even just one person, He would "miss the mark" that His Father set for Him. Can't you see that your beliefs make Christ out to be a sinner?

Consider these verses:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Don't you believe that Christ desires to save all mankind? If you do, then why can't you believe that Christ will accomplish that desire? He is God after all. Your beliefs are bringing Him down to the level of mankind.

Maybe you believe that mankind's "will" is just too strong for Christ to overcome???

Not according to scripture:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If Christ wanted to save every person who is living right now, He could do it simply by giving each person the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a free gift that is given to mankind without their asking for it and without their permission. However, Christ has a plan to accomplish the salvation of mankind and He will stick to that plan.

Christ's plan revealed in scripture shows that the last TWO ages of time are for the purpose of saving mankind.

In this age, Christ is only saving the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are the Elect who were chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. The Feast of Weeks foreshadows this first harvest.

In the next and final age, Christ will reign with His Elect to bring in the final and great harvest of mankind. The Feast of Ingathering foreshadows this final harvest.

After the last of mankind has been harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven, the ages will end and life outside the ages will begin. Only then will the Father be "all in all" (His Spirit indwelling all mankind). The Father will then receive glory from Christ's accomplished work.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

For this great day of salvation to occur, everyone who bows their knee to Christ MUST be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It can happen no other way:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

John Hagee (an apostate TV preacher) was teaching about the scripture above on his TV program one day. He said that even if Christ has to break the legs of people, He will get everyone to bow their knees to Him. Can that give glory to the Father? Do you believe that Christ is so incapable of changing the hearts and minds of mankind that He would have to force a confession of faith out of anyone?

Frankly, your foundation of truth is so incorrect, that it is not possible for me to present any scripture to you which would change your beliefs. Christ reserves that power to Himself because He is the only One who can baptism a person with the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain). Without the Latter Rain, no person can see the true Christ.

These scriptures apply:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, IF YOU CALL OUT FOR INSIGHT AND RAISE YOU VOICE FOR UNDERSTANDING, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Jer 33:3 ‘CALL TO ME, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I WILL CALL UNTO THE LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

When Christ is ready to open the eyes of one of His Elect babes, He will cause them to pray for understanding. Christ will then pour out the Latter Rain and heal their blindness. This is the only way a person can find the knowledge of God.

Christ did this for me back in 2005. My testimony from that time is presented on my website which is shown below my member name - in case you have an interest in reading it.

Joe

Hentenza said:

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

aionios means eternal indeed. Maybe there is a UR only interlinear out there.

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Dear Hentenza,
The definitions of "aion" and "aionios" have changed since the 1st century when the NT letters were written. This change occurred to accommodate the false doctrine of eternal hell. I can't prove that to you from any historical records but I know in my heart that it happened. How? Because the doctrine of eternal hell conflicts with many scriptures and with the very nature of who God is.

Joe

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Hentenza,
The definitions of "aion" and "aionios" have changed since the 1st century when the NT letters were written. This change occurred to accommodate the false doctrine of eternal hell. I can't prove that to you from any historical records but I know in my heart that it happened. How? Because the doctrine of eternal hell conflicts with many scriptures and with the very nature of who God is.

Joe

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IHi Joe,

I am aware but that was remedied when UR was declared anathema in the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553ad. You can argue the philosophy of aionios from back then but it still doesn’t hold water.

Hentenza said:

IHi Joe,

I am aware but that was remedied when UR was declared anathema in the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553ad. You can argue the philosophy of aionios from back then but it still doesn’t hold water.

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Dear Hentenza,
Yes, I'm sure it was argued against in that council in 553 A.D. and at many other times. That should not surprise anyone since the churches that the very Elect started in the 1st century A.D. all became apostate shortly after Paul's death.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The Doctrines of Free Will and Hell are two of the "perverse things" that Paul warned would come into the church. Paul also warned his churches about the coming apostasy for three years with tears because he knew that many of the babes he personally knew were going to fall away and become apostate. The apostasy was not a far off event as many teach. And because none of the flock was spared, all the churches became apostate and they still are to this day.

John even said this:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To learn truth, one should NOT be looking at church history/teachings. Scripture is quite sufficient and is the only true source of God's truth.

Joe

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,

Scripture primarily teaches about the events that happen during the ages. It rarely mentions anything that happens before the ages began or after they will end. Because scriptures is teaching about the ages, it will say that Christ is the God of the ages, that He reigns during the ages and has honor, power & might during the ages, etc. When scripture want to say that Christ is eternal, it will say that He is incorruptible, immortal, has no end or words to that effect.

Click to expand...

I have just presented you with facts that contradict your staement. You have an inconsistant reading of the scriptures and you cast shade on God's watchcare over them. Was God asleep when these "bad translators" were "slaughtering" His words of life? Your religions is based upon your opinions and largly ignores facts.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,
You are twisting the scriptures to make them say what you want them to say. I see this problem all the time with other people on the forum.

Click to expand...

That is because you see twisted as straight, so when the scriptures are presented to you straight, they appear twised.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

I will respond in general to what you stated in your post.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Christ has eternal Kingship. That is a false teaching and comes from incorrect translations.

Click to expand...

Promise of an Eternal Throne (Old Testament Prophecy)

2 Samuel 7:16 — God promises David, “Your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.”
This covenant pointed forward to a descendant of David who would reign eternally.

Jesus as the Fulfillment of the Davidic King

Luke 1:32–33 — The angel declares to Mary: “The Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
This directly ties Jesus to the eternal throne promised to David.

Jesus’ Reign Described as Everlasting

Hebrews 1:8 (quoting Psalm 45): “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”
This affirms the eternal duration of Christ’s reign.

Jesus Acknowledged as Eternal King in Glory

Revelation 11:15 — “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Conclusion:
Scripture consistently shows that Jesus fulfills the promise of an eternal Davidic king whose throne, reign, and kingdom have no end.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Here are the proper translations of the verses you quoted:

Rom 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

Scripture teaches what happens during the ages. Christ is the God of the ages. He is also immortal but that is not what Rom 16:26 is addressing here but it does so in your next quoted verse:

1Tim 16:6 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.

The start of this scripture says that Christ is immortal. At the end of the verse it refers to the honor and might that Christ possesses during the ages - the time that Christ reigns over mankind. Once the ages end, so will the reign of Christ over mankind. Why would the verse say that Christ is immortal at the beginning and then repeat that truth at the end of the verse? It would be redundant and unnecessary.

That same problem of redundancy occurs when "aion aion" is translated as "forever and ever":

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Doesn't forever mean without end? Why would the verse need to add another "ever" to "forever"? Does doing that make forever an even longer period of time? That translation makes no sense but this one does:

Rev 19:3 and a second time they said, 'Alleluia;' and her smoke doth come up -- to the ages of the ages!

As I said earlier, scripture primarily only teaches about the things that happen during the ages. It is mostly silent outside of the ages.

Here is your next quoted verse:

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

When it says "age-during Spirit", it does not mean that the Spirit only exists during the ages. You should not read into it that way.

1Tim 1:17 and to the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Why would the verse say "eternal King" and then say that the King is also immortal since they mean the same thing. The correct translation is saying that Christ is the King of the ages and that He is also immortal.

Joe

Click to expand...

You have presented this on your won authority using your narrow dfiniations of greek text. Many of these misguided translations are wildly out of context and if one were honestly reading the mistranslated scriptures you present, then God is not eternal.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Hentenza,
Yes, I'm sure it was argued against in that council in 553 A.D. and at many other times. That should not surprise anyone since the churches that the very Elect started in the 1st century A.D. all became apostate shortly after Paul's death.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The Doctrines of Free Will and Hell are two of the "perverse things" that Paul warned would come into the church. Paul also warned his churches about the coming apostasy for three years with tears because he knew that many of the babes he personally knew were going to fall away and become apostate. The apostasy was not a far off event as many teach. And because none of the flock was spared, all the churches became apostate and they still are to this day.

John even said this:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To learn truth, one should NOT be looking at church history/teachings. Scripture is quite sufficient and is the only true source of God's truth.

Joe

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You choose to believe the way you do of your own free will. God does not want companion bots nor did He plunge the world into sin and emense suffering. Humans chose to do that. God does not will crimes like rape and murder or the slaughter children on us.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Hentenza,
Yes, I'm sure it was argued against in that council in 553 A.D. and at many other times. That should not surprise anyone since the churches that the very Elect started in the 1st century A.D. all became apostate shortly after Paul's death.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The Doctrines of Free Will and Hell are two of the "perverse things" that Paul warned would come into the church. Paul also warned his churches about the coming apostasy for three years with tears because he knew that many of the babes he personally knew were going to fall away and become apostate. The apostasy was not a far off event as many teach. And because none of the flock was spared, all the churches became apostate and they still are to this day.

John even said this:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To learn truth, one should NOT be looking at church history/teachings. Scripture is quite sufficient and is the only true source of God's truth.

Joe

Click to expand...

Joe, in order to properly interpret scripture proper use of hermeneutic principles are necessary. Two of these principles are historical and autographical. The history of the time as well as the author‘s intent among other literary devices frequently define context. For example, during the time of Paul gnostism, among other Jewish and Greek inspired heretical groups, was already rising its ugly head. These were the warnings from Paul to the churches. The early church did not become apostate. You, in fact, are buying into gnostic though as you promote UR.

Mercy Shown said:

I have just presented you with facts that contradict your staement. You have an inconsistant reading of the scriptures and you cast shade on God's watchcare over them. Was God asleep when these "bad translators" were "slaughtering" His words of life? Your religions is based upon your opinions and largly ignores facts.

That is because you see twisted as straight, so when the scriptures are presented to you straight, they appear twised.

Promise of an Eternal Throne (Old Testament Prophecy)

2 Samuel 7:16 — God promises David, “Your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.”
This covenant pointed forward to a descendant of David who would reign eternally.

Jesus as the Fulfillment of the Davidic King

Luke 1:32–33 — The angel declares to Mary: “The Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
This directly ties Jesus to the eternal throne promised to David.

Jesus’ Reign Described as Everlasting

Hebrews 1:8 (quoting Psalm 45): “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”
This affirms the eternal duration of Christ’s reign.

Jesus Acknowledged as Eternal King in Glory

Revelation 11:15 — “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Conclusion:
Scripture consistently shows that Jesus fulfills the promise of an eternal Davidic king whose throne, reign, and kingdom have no end.


You have presented this on your won authority using your narrow dfiniations of greek text. Many of these misguided translations are wildly out of context and if one were honestly reading the mistranslated scriptures you present, then God is not eternal.

Click to expand...

Dear Mercy Shown,
You said:
Was God asleep when these "bad translators" were "slaughtering" His words of life?

Of course not.

Do you think that anything in this world can happen that is not caused by God? The bad translations didn't happen by chance or my man's supposed free will ability. They happened because God caused them to happen.

The scripture below explains why the apostasy of the church happened and who caused it to happen. Apostate translators just add to the veiled nature of scripture.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

You quoted:

2 Samuel 7:16 — God promises David, “Your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.”

David and his house (the Elect) will reign with Christ for the ages - not forever.

This is the correct translation:

2Sam 7:16 and stedfast is thy house and thy kingdom unto the age before thee, thy throne is established unto the age.'

Incorrect translations are not limited to the NT Greek. The Hebrew word "olam" means the same as "aion". It never means forever/eternal.

Hebrews 1:8 (quoting Psalm 45): “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.”

After the last enemy is destroyed, Christ's reign will come to an end. It is not eternal.

Here is the correct translation:

Heb 1:8 and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the ages (the final age); a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy reign;

Paul explains this truth of Christ's reign ending someday in the scripture below WITHOUT using the commonly mistranslated word "aion":

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 FOR HE MUST REIGN UNTIL he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If you don't believe that Christ will defeat the last enemy of death (caused by sin), then I can see how you would believe that Christ will reign for ever and ever, never having completed the mission His Father gave Him.

But Christ will complete His Father's mission and He will put an end to sin and death. In the end, all mankind (children of the Devil) will cease to exist but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

As for my authority, it comes from Christ and not from men. Everything that I believe and teach is supported by scripture.

I used to believe very much like you do prior to my conversion in 2005. But since that time, the Lord has fed me the same feast that He feeds to all His Elect. I may be the first truly converted person you have ever met because the Elect in this world are "few" in number.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

I do know several other converted Elect believers but I did not meet them in any "church". Why? Because there are none there. After a person is converted, they will quickly leave the church that they were attending because light does not fellowship with darkness.

As I said in my previous post, when Christ is ready for one of His Elect babes to receive the Latter Rain and be converted, He will cause them to pray for understanding. This truth is even shown in Paul's conversion "type":

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias (a type for Christ); and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: FOR BEHOLD, HE PRAYETH, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Only after Christ gives a babe the Latter Rain will the scales fall from their eyes so that they can eat "meat" (truth).

I recommend you pray for understanding as Paul was surely doing before Ananias came to him.

Prayer is the only way anyone will be given the Spirit of Truth so that they can eat meat just as Paul and I have consumed - and Christ will make sure that they pray that prayer at a time of the Father's choosing. Nothing is left to chance or to a person's "will". If Christ doesn't answer a person's prayer, it is only because they are not one of the Elect. No one can change what God has already chosen.

Joe

Mercy Shown said:

You choose to believe the way you do of your own free will. God does not want companion bots nor did He plunge the world into sin and emense suffering. Humans chose to do that. God does not will crimes like rape and murder or the slaughter children on us.

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Dear Mercy Shown,
The belief that you expressed in your post comes from the deceptions of Satan and the carnal mind of mankind.

You need to consider these scriptures on evil:

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Paul said this about what causes a person to sin:3

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? (when a person sins) For who hath resisted his will?

Here some other scriptures besides Rom 9:19 that reject the false teaching that mankind has a free will:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Here is one more - a greatly misunderstood scripture:

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Why would Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling? It's not because a person has the free will ability to work it out own their own. It's because it is God who works it out from within the person - causing them to "both will and to do of His good pleasure".

And what is His "good pleasure"?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

"Every word" includes evil and consuming leavened bread. It is this leavened bread that causes a person to accept Satan's false teachings and to become apostate. We all must live by this word below:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

When a babe eats leavened bread, they don't know it because the leaven is hidden in the meal (truth). This is the nature of being deceived.

Joe