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A conversation about unity.

Xeno.of.athens

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The son of one of my friends - The son would be about 40 years old now - has been having a conversation with me about the meaning of unity, in the Church. He is a Calvinist christian doing studies in a Baptist-like theological school. As a part of his studies, he's been looking into the question of church unity, and disunity. And since he knows me, he's been asking me questions about the Catholic perspective on the issues he's studying. We have had several rounds of discussion already and it would be unfair of me to reproduce those discussions, without first consulting with him about whether he wants anything that he's written, to appear in this forum. So, I will reproduce only my most recent reply to him regarding The question of unity. It is shown below the line.

Thank you for your considered reflections. You rightly note that various ecclesial communities articulate differing conceptions of the Church’s nature and unity. However, from a Catholic perspective, the Church founded by Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him” (Lumen Gentium, §8). This formulation affirms that while elements of sanctification and truth exist outside her visible structure, the fullness of Christ’s Church remains uniquely and enduringly present in the Catholic communion.

The Catholic critique of Protestant ecclesiology is not a dismissal of sincere faith or doctrinal convergence, but a theological response to the revealed structure of the Church. As Dominus Iesus (§16) clarifies, “the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery are not Churches in the proper sense.” This is not a polemical assertion but a doctrinal distinction rooted in sacramental and apostolic continuity. Unity, in Catholic understanding, is not merely mutual recognition but visible communion in faith, sacraments, and governance.

Your concern for ecumenical charity is well placed. The Church teaches that “many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of her visible structure” (Lumen Gentium, §8), and she earnestly seeks unity through dialogue and mutual understanding. Yet, fidelity to Christ’s intention for His Church requires clarity: unity must be more than doctrinal harmony—it must be sacramental and hierarchical, as instituted by Christ and perpetuated through apostolic succession.
 
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Bob Crowley

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For reasons of my own I believe physical church unity is more important than most of us think. I remember my old pastor commenting that he thought God wasn't as accepting of the divided church as we are.

We "tolerate" a lot of things on earth that wouldn't be tolerated for one minute in heaven - war, economic injustice, rape, domestic violence, environmental abuse, religious violence and so on. Church disunity is another.

The Church is God's Church when it's all said and done. It was set up at the cost of immense suffering by tthe Son of God. It was divided by men with a lot of violence in the Wars of Religion. Christian killed Christian all over Western Europe.

The Thirty Years War did enormous damage.

The Thirty Years' War was fought between 1618 and 1648, principally on the territory of today's Germany, and involved most of the major European powers. Beginning as a religious conflict between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire, it gradually developed into a general war involving much of Europe, for reasons not necessarily related to religion. The war marked a continuation of the France-Habsburg rivalry for pre-eminence in Europe, which led later to direct war between France and Spain. Military intervention by external powers such as Denmark and Sweden on the Protestant side increased the duration of the war and the extent of its devastation. In the latter stages of the war, Catholic France, fearful of an increase in Habsburg power, also intervened on the Protestant side.

The major impact of the Thirty Years' War, in which mercenary armies were extensively used, was the devastation of entire regions scavenged bare by the foraging armies. Episodes of widespread famine and disease devastated the population of the German states and, to a lesser extent, the Low Countries and Italy, while bankrupting many of the powers involved. The war ended with the Treaty of Münster, a part of the wider Peace of Westphalia.

During the war, Germany's population was reduced by 30% on average. In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two thirds of the population died. The population of the Czech lands declined by a third. The Swedish army alone, which was no greater a ravager than the other armies of the Thirty Years' War,[34] destroyed 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns during its tenure of 17 years in Germany. For decades armies and armed bands had roamed Germany like packs of wolves, slaughtering the populace like sheep. One band of marauders even styled themselves as "Werewolves".[34] Huge damage was done to monasteries, churches and other religious institutions. The war had proved disastrous for the German-speaking parts of the Holy Roman Empire. Germany lost population and territory, and was henceforth further divided into hundreds of largely impotent semi-independent states. The Imperial power retreated to Austria and the Habsburg lands. The Netherlands and Switzerland were confirmed independent. The peace institutionalised the Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist religious divide in Germany, with populations either converting, or moving to areas controlled by rulers of their own faith.

One authority puts France's losses against Austria at 80,000 killed or wounded and against Spain (including the years 1648–1659, after Westphalia) at 300,000 dead or disabled.[34] Sweden and Finland lost, by one calculation, 110,000 dead from all causes.[34] Another 400,000 Germans, British, and other nationalities died in Swedish service.[34]
In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer claimed that Germany's population declined from 16 million to about 6 million in the century after Luther, and that German society fell into a "horrible torpor" for centuries ("...hundreds of largely impotent semi-independent states....").

That was one effect of the violence, and the continued division of the church is another. I wonder how easy going God is with our violent, and continued, division of HIS church when He expects us to be one as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one?
 
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Carl Emerson

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In John 17 we read that the visible unity of believers draws the unsaved to Jesus.

This is "first Love" spoken by John in Rev 2.

Sadly this is rare in churches as the cost of allowing Jesus to impact our lives and institutions to that end is too high.

Equality among the saints and unity go hand in hand but we have relegated the early chapters of Acts to the 'too hard' basket.

'Viva Christo Rey' with Rick Thomas, back in the 60's was a good example of such a return to Unity, Equality and Love.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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In John 17 we read that the visible unity of believers draws the unsaved to Jesus.

This is "first Love" spoken by John in Rev 2.

Sadly this is rare in churches as the cost of allowing Jesus to impact our lives and institutions to that end is too high.

Equality among the saints and unity go hand in hand but we have relegated the early chapters of Acts to the 'too hard' basket.

'Viva Christo Rey' with Rick Thomas, back in the 60's was a good example of such a return to Unity, Equality and Love.
For reasons of my own I believe physical church unity is more important than most of us think. I remember my old pastor commenting that he thought God wasn't as accepting of the divided church as we are.

We "tolerate" a lot of things on earth that wouldn't be tolerated for one minute in heaven - war, economic injustice, rape, domestic violence, environmental abuse, religious violence and so on. Church disunity is another.

The Church is God's Church when it's all said and done. It was set up at the cost of immense suffering by tthe Son of God. It was divided by men with a lot of violence in the Wars of Religion. Christian killed Christian all over Western Europe.

The Thirty Years War did enormous damage.


In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer claimed that Germany's population declined from 16 million to about 6 million in the century after Luther, and that German society fell into a "horrible torpor" for centuries ("...hundreds of largely impotent semi-independent states....").

That was one effect of the violence, and the continued division of the church is another. I wonder how easy going God is with our violent, and continued, division of HIS church when He expects us to be one as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one?

The false eccumanism that is pervasive in His Church today is not useful to the souls outside it.
For an individual, one way to express unity is to join the church that the individual believes, truly believes, is the one church that Jesus Christ founded and has sustained from the beginning.
 
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Carl Emerson

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For an individual, one way to express unity is to join the church that the individual believes, truly believes, is the one church that Jesus Christ founded and has sustained from the beginning.

By the time John wrote Revelation churches were needing serious correction.
 
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concretecamper

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For an individual, one way to express unity is to join the church that the individual believes, truly believes, is the one church that Jesus Christ founded and has sustained from the beginning.
What an individual truly believes is irrelevant.

Objectively speaking, there is One Church, One Baptism, One Faith. All the others are false.
 
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concretecamper

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By the time John wrote Revelation churches were needing serious correction.
Which goes to show that unless His Church was divinely instituted, it would have collapsed many times over in the past 2000 years
 
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Carl Emerson

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Which goes to show that unless His Church was divinely instituted, it would have collapsed many times over in the past 2000 years

Ae you suggesting the 7 churches were not divinely instituted?
 
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ARBITER01

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What an individual truly believes is irrelevant.

Objectively speaking, there is One Church, One Baptism, One Faith. All the others are false.

Ah yes,..... just one church/building out of all of them is correct, the rest around the world are just false.

As if a building meant anything with Jesus.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Ah yes,..... just one church/building out of all of them is correct, the rest around the world are just false.

As if a building meant anything with Jesus.
The term church refers, in its primary theological sense, to the community of Christian believers united in faith and sacramental life, and secondarily to the physical building designated for public worship. Etymologically, church derives from the Old English cirice, itself rooted in the West Germanic kirika, which was borrowed from the Greek kyriakē (κυριακή), meaning “of the Lord” or “belonging to the Lord,” a feminine adjective formed from kyrios (κύριος), “Lord.” This term originally denoted the “Lord’s house” (kyriakē oikia) and was adopted into early Christian usage to describe both the liturgical assembly and the sacred space in which it gathered. The semantic evolution reflects both ecclesiological and architectural dimensions of Christian tradition.
 
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concretecamper

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concretecamper

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Yet they lost their way in about 50 years and were warned that their divine status would be withdrawn.

This to me indicated that divine institution does not guarantee survival.
It does guarantees survival because His Church is still around.
 
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Strong in Him

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For an individual, one way to express unity is to join the church that the individual believes, truly believes, is the one church that Jesus Christ founded and has sustained from the beginning.
I'm sorry but that's a source of disunity right there.

I have, too often, heard the view in these forums that non Catholics are not part of the Church, that we only have part of the Gospel, don't believe in the right way or the right things etc.

Jesus is Truth, full stop.
When it comes to it, we all believe in Jesus, what the Nicene Creed says about Jesus and what Jesus said about himself, salvation and eternal life. We all, I hope, have the Holy Spirit who was sent by Jesus and are trying to live for, and serve, Jesus.

THAT is unity.
Catholics, Protestants and others are all part of THE Church.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I'm sorry but that's a source of disunity right there.

I have, too often, heard the view in these forums that non Catholics are not part of the Church, that we only have part of the Gospel, don't believe in the right way or the right things etc.

Jesus is Truth, full stop.
When it comes to it, we all believe in Jesus, what the Nicene Creed says about Jesus and what Jesus said about himself, salvation and eternal life. We all, I hope, have the Holy Spirit who was sent by Jesus and are trying to live for, and serve, Jesus.

THAT is unity.
Catholics, Protestants and others are all part of THE Church.
At the risk of being tiresome, read the original post if you have not already done so, and if you have then re-read it.
 
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Strong in Him

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At the risk of being tiresome, read the original post is you have not already done so, and if you have then re-read it.
I have. I was responding to your comment, not to the OP.
But your response to your friend suggests much the same thing; the Catholic church is the church - even if some truth can be found outside it. As soon as you get into "us" and "them", there is disunity.
 
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Hentenza

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I am a deacon in my Baptist church in a town right outside of Houston. There is my church, a Methodist church, and a Catholic Church within a couple of blocks. We all talk to each other, fellowship with each other, and even have charitable events together. However when it is time to break bread, as Jesus commanded and as Acts 2:42 states, only the Catholic Church is not welcoming because of their closed communion policy.

Jesus stated that where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there He is so every one that is gathered in His name whether in a building or not are part of His church. If the Catholic Church wishes unity among the churches and Christians then there is much that they need to change. We still love our Catholic brothers and will continue to fellowship with them simply because that is the call of every Christian.
 
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