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Britain becomes 'western capital' for sharia law courts as 85 open throughout the UK

Hentenza

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“Britain has emerged as the "western capital" for sharia courts, with 85 Islamic councils now operating across the country since the first was established in 1982.

These religious bodies have become increasingly influential, drawing Muslims from across Europe and North America who seek religious rulings on marriage and family matters.

The councils, typically consisting of panels of Islamic scholars who are almost always male, serve as informal bodies issuing religious rulings particularly focused on marriages and divorces.”

 

Chesterton

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Praying for you guys over there.
Well I'm not over there. I'm American. I've been following what's been going on there in recent weeks, and I'm just happy to support a people finally uniting to fight against the dystopian police state they've been living in for too long.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Well I'm not over there. I'm American. I've been following what's been going on there in recent weeks, and I'm just happy to support a people finally uniting to fight against the dystopian police state they've been living in for too long.

Sorry for the confusion. I agree with you; It's bad from everything I have heard. Consider this:

Total Official Civil Court Locations in UK: 170 (England/Wales) + 39 (Scotland) + 7 (NI) = 216. (This counts primary physical court buildings/venues for civil jurisdiction; higher/appellate courts are not double-counted as they're fewer and centralized.)

With the 85 Sharia Councils that means (85 / 216) × 100 = 39.35% (rounded to two decimals) of all "civil courts" in the UK are sharia and not well overseen by the UK government, basically operating rogue as far as I can tell because for it to be legally binding any ruling still has to be ratified by a UK civil court.

I wonder how many people using these courts even know they aren't legal entities under English law? They say a great many Muslim marriages in England aren't even legally registered. If all their marriages, divorces and custody disputes are happening outside of English law, whose protecting these women and children?
 
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JosephZ

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Total Official Civil Court Locations in UK: 170 (England/Wales) + 39 (Scotland) + 7 (NI) = 216. (This counts primary physical court buildings/venues for civil jurisdiction; higher/appellate courts are not double-counted as they're fewer and centralized.)

With the 85 Sharia Councils that means (85 / 216) × 100 = 39.35% (rounded to two decimals) of all "civil courts" in the UK are sharia and not well overseen by the UK government, basically operating rogue as far as I can tell because for it to be legally binding any ruling still has to be ratified by a UK civil court.
That's a faulty comparison. Shar'ia councils are not "civil courts" and have no legal jurisdiction in the UK. Shar'ia councils operate much like Catholic tribunals or Jewish Beth Dins. They are not part of the legal system. They can only handle civil matters, are nonbinding, and have no legal authority, unless the country they are in grants them authority.

If all their marriages, divorces and custody disputes are happening outside of English law, whose protecting these women and children?
That's easy, the state provides legal protections for women and children. Shar'ia councils are voluntary, and if someone disputes a council decision, or especially if the decision is contrary to the law of the land, they can seek assistance through the formal courts.
 
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Hentenza

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That's a faulty comparison. Shar'ia councils are not "civil courts" and have no legal jurisdiction in the UK. Shar'ia councils operate much like Catholic tribunals or Jewish Beth Dins. They are not part of the legal system. They can only handle civil matters, are nonbinding, and have no legal authority, unless the country they are in grants them authority.


That's easy, the state provides legal protections for women and children. Shar'ia councils are voluntary, and if someone disputes a council decision, or especially if the decision is contrary to the law of the land, they can seek assistance through the formal courts.
Quite the naive view. From the UK parliament.

“We are fortunate to live in a democracy which enshrines the principle of equality before the law and is committed to the promotion of gender equality.



However, there are increasing concerns that many women and girls in this country today are suffering from systematic religiously-sanctioned gender discrimination, with particular reference to the application of Sharia law operating as a parallel quasi-legal system.



As the then Home Secretary Theresa May has said: “There is evidence of women being ‘divorced’ under Sharia law and left in penury, wives who are forced to return to abusive relationships because Sharia councils say a husband has a right to ‘chastise’, and Sharia councils giving the testimony of a woman only half the weight of the testimony of a man”.[1]



Respect for freedom of religion and belief

“In a free society, individuals must be able to organise their affairs according to their own principles, whether religious or otherwise. However, we cannot condone situations where rulings are applied which are fundamentally incompatible with our country’s laws, values, principles and policies.



Concerns

  • Arbitration tribunals which operate according to Sharia law and discriminate against women. Examples of such rulings include: inequality in access to divorce (for men often so easy it is effectively free and unconditional); polygamy (practiced by men who havemultiple ‘wives’ and numerous children); discriminatory child custody policies and inheritance laws; and the implicit sanctioning of domestic violence.
  • Arbitration tribunals which apply Sharia law going beyond their legal remit, including addressing cases of grievous bodily harm which should come to the police and the formal legal system.
  • Sharia councils operating as ‘courts’ with apparent legal authority.
  • Muslim women being coerced into agreeing to go before a ‘Sharia court’, council or Arbitration tribunal rather than the UK courts, or lacking information regarding any alternative system.


I have submitted a Private Member’s Bill, the Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill, which seeks to address some of these concern. Its provisions would:

  • Strengthen the duties of public bodies to ensure that women are made aware of their legal rights;
  • Strengthen the powers of the police and judiciary to protect victims of abuse;
  • Prevent the operation of a parallel legal system by outlawing any person, such as a Sharia ‘judge’, falsely claiming legal jurisdiction. “
 
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JosephZ

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Quite the naive view. From the UK parliament.
The outcome of the investigation you linked to confirmed everything I said in my post.

The independent review into the application of sharia law in England and Wales

Sharia councils have no legal status and no legal binding authority under civil law. Whilst sharia is a source of guidance for many Muslims, sharia councils have no legal jurisdiction in England and Wales. Thus if any decisions or recommendations are made by a sharia council that are inconsistent with domestic law (including equality policies such as the Equality Act 2010) domestic law will prevail. Sharia councils will be acting illegally should they seek to exclude domestic law. Although they claim no binding legal authority, they do in fact act in a decision making capacity when dealing with Islamic divorce.

Common misconceptions around sharia councils often perpetuate owing to the use of incorrect terms such as referring to them as ‘courts’ rather than councils or to their members as ‘judges’... It is this misrepresentation of sharia councils as courts that leads to public misconceptions over the primacy of sharia over domestic law and concerns of a parallel legal system.

It should also be noted at the outset that those proposing a ban on sharia councils provide no counter proposal or any solution for anyone seeking a religious divorce. It is clear from all the evidence that sharia councils are fulfilling a need in some Muslim communities. There is a demand for religious divorce and this is currently being answered by the sharia councils.

Freedom of religion must include the freedom to practice that religion and therefore the freedom to accept the practices and disciplines of that religion and the authority of those within that religion. Thus a Muslim woman has the right to seek a religious divorce by such means as their religion permits even though she may be already divorced in civil law. No religious law can be enforced in our civil law. There is no legal duty on a citizen to comply with any religious law. The state may (and should) make that clear to all. Article 11 effectively protects the formation and maintenance of sharia councils, which are voluntary associations of scholars recognised within the Muslim community as having a particular authority. However, all three articles are qualified.

Comparative groups in other religions

Muslims are not unique in creating groups and organisations that provide guidance and decision making according to religious law. Two similar groups are the Jewish Beth Din and the Roman Catholic tribunals.



There are also concerns about Beth dins.

UK Jewish Orthodox councils 'institutionalising marital captivity and upholding discriminatory religious laws'

According to Jewish law, both spouses must consent to a religious divorce. But it is executed by a writ – the “get” – delivered by the husband, of his own free will, which the wife needs to accept.

Without a get, any future offspring of the woman – and nine generations of children – will be “mamzerim”, and would only able to marry another “mamzer”.

Ms Zee said the Jewish councils deserve scrutiny as well as sharia courts, because they contribute to women remaining in “marital captivity”.

Sharia councils and Batei Din operate as bodies under the Arbitration Act 1996, to resolve disputes among community members.

“Unlike sharia councils, where a qadi can issue a divorce in the absence of a husband, it is not possible for a Jewish woman to obtain a get without her husband’s co-operation (at least, not according to classic interpretations). In that vein, a Beth Din does not function as a ‘court’; it is a witness to the dissolution of the marriage.”

She alleges that, in theory, Jewish women can be worse off than Muslim would-be divorcees. A sharia council can issue a divorce without the man’s involvement.



Chained Women: The Jewish wives being held hostage in abusive marriages

An upsurge in cases of men refusing to grant their wives a religious divorce is causing mounting alarm in Australian Jewish communities, but the Government is refusing to intervene in what it considers to be a religious matter.

Outside Israel, Jewish couples can be civilly divorced, but if they do not also obtain a gett, they are considered still married in Orthodox law.

The gett process, overseen by a tribunal of all-male rabbis, strictly requires that a husband must willingly give his wife the gett, which she must willingly accept.

Most of the time this happens quickly and amicably.

But in what experts say is a growing number of cases, Jewish men in Australia are abusing their power in the divorce process to force women into giving up money, property and child custody.

Without a gett, a woman cannot remarry under Jewish law.

If she began a new relationship, she'd be considered an adulteress, and if she had children, they'd be considered mamzerim — often incorrectly translated as "bastards" — and heavily stigmatised.

An ABC News investigation — part of an ongoing series exploring the complex links between religion and domestic violence — has found rising concerns that men are exploiting their advantage in the Jewish divorce process to control and traumatise women who have endured sometimes decades of violence and abuse.
 
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Hentenza

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The outcome of the investigation you linked to confirmed everything I said in my post.
Did you talk about the abuse of women and how they are pressured into staying in abusive relationships and how misogynistic the whole process is. How about the women that are pressured into polygamy. Women’s rights are ignored and trampled over by these “courts”.
 
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JosephZ

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Yet women are being hauled in front of these councils for matters of actual case law.
Not in the UK, where Shar'ia councils do not handle case law, and 90% of the cases brought before Shar'ia councils are initiated by women who are seeking divorce from their husbands, who refuse to give them one. Without these Shar'ia councils, many women would find themselves stuck in a marriage they no longer wanted to be a part of.

Do you understand what it's like to be trained to submit from birth and then try and assert your legal rights in the face of an entire community against such a notion?
Not personally, but I do work with members of a Muslim tribe in the Philippines and have experienced how an informal Shar'ia court works in that country. The tribe practices prearranged marriages; often these children are under 5 years old when the marriage agreement is made, and child marriages are the norm. In their culture, a girl is able to marry once she has her first menstruation, and the boy's family pays a dowry. Despite being able to marry as early as the girl's first menstruation, in almost all cases girls in the tribe get married after the age of 14, with most occurring between the ages of 14 and 16.

In 2014 a young girl from this tribe promised me that if I would help her go to school, she would finish her studies and go to college. She was 13 years old at the time, and I, of course, agreed to help. About a year later, she came to me with a problem. The family of the boy her parents had agreed to marry her to had finally come up with enough money to pay the agreed dowry, and the two families were already making wedding preparations. She wanted me to help her get out of this marriage so she could stay in school. Her case was taken to what was at the time an informal Shar'ia court that was located in the community she lived in. (There is now a formal Shar'ia court, and unlike in the UK, where Shar'ia councils have no legal authority, decisions made in Shar'ia courts in the Philippines are legally binding.) During her hearing I was allowed to give a statement on why she should stay in school and how it would be a benefit not only to her but also to her family and the tribe in general. Although it was against the tribes traditions and expectations, both families agreed in the end that the children not marrying was in the best interest of everyone, and the court granted the request that the marriage not go forward under the condition that the girl's family pay back the dowry.

Sadly, the girl was unable to keep her promise to me. Her mother passed away in 2016, which made school too difficult for her, and she eventually dropped out. She has since moved to a village in another part of the country and now has a family of her own after marrying a man of her choosing.

Your not a Muslim woman, not even a woman. We should support those most likely to be marginalized to have a voice and rights in western countries.

Don't take it away from them.
Do you share the same concern for Jewish women who find themselves trapped in marriages for years because their husbands refuse to agree to a divorce, and the Beth Din does not allow the divorce even when civil divorces are being granted?
 
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JosephZ

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Did you talk about the abuse of women and how they are pressured into staying in abusive relationships and how misogynistic the whole process is.
No, because I was only clarifying a misunderstanding of what Shar'ia councils are and how they operate within the legal system of the UK. My response didn't require going any farther.

How about the women that are pressured into polygamy.
If that's happening in the UK, then the woman has the option to file a case against her husband through the UK legal system which supersedes any ruling made by a Shar'ia council in that country.

Women’s rights are ignored and trampled over but you will defend them regardless.
I'm not sure what led you to that impression, but I support women's rights and also the right to religious freedom. Muslim women should have the same right to seek a religious divorce as women from other religions. It seems you disagree.
 
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Lukaris

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I wonder if sharia courts have done anything against grooming gangs? At least in cooperation with secular authorities?


 
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RileyG

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Praying for you guys over there.
Lord have mercy!

Love the British isles, and had the opportunity to visit England, Ireland, and Wales.

Beautiful! Beautiful countries!
 
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RileyG

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Hazelelponi

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Not in the UK, where Shar'ia councils do not handle case law,

They aren't handling them legally - which I clearly pointed out - but anywhere else on earth things like divorce, inheritance, child custody arrangements and so forth are a matter of actual civil law.

and 90% of the cases brought before Shar'ia councils are initiated by women who are seeking divorce from their husbands, who refuse to give them one.

As a former Muslim I can tell you, the only place you should be if your husband is refusing to give you a divorce is the English legal system, because there you'll actually get one.

Without these Shar'ia councils, many women would find themselves stuck in a marriage they no longer wanted to be a part of.

Because I'm an American citizen with full access to the American legal system I was able to be legally divorced from my now ex-husband and actually move on with my life.

Without that access and ability I would still be legally married to that man. That is the horror.

Not personally, but I do work with members of a Muslim tribe in the Philippines and have experienced how an informal Shar'ia court works in that country. The tribe practices prearranged marriages; often these children are under 5 years old when the marriage

You can stop trying to sell that to me. I was bought out of it by Christ.

It’s not rainbows and unicorns.

Muslim women—even in parts of the UK—often cannot freely leave their homes. Many are not allowed to drive, and some never even learn how.

For many, social contact is limited to other women during holidays or Fridays at the mosque, with perhaps a little interaction through their husband’s friends and relatives. But because everything is segregated, even that contact remains very limited.

Language is another barrier. Many women do not know the local language well, if at all, which means they rarely converse with their neighbors outside the community.

In traditional households, men run the errands and do the shopping. Women are expected to cook whatever they are given. That leaves few opportunities for them to engage in wider community life.


In such an environment, what little a woman may know about her country’s legal system often comes second-hand—through other women in her immigrant community. This means many do not even realize what rights they have under English law, or how much better they could have been adjudicated if they had not been persuaded against using the English court system.

On top of this, their only support system is the very community that controls them. Cut off from broader society, they are less inclined—and less able—to fight for themselves.

But when that means of control is removed, they are in a far better position. Instead of being deprived of their rights in a sharia court, they can simply receive all that the law of their country already guarantees them.

Do you share the same concern for Jewish women who find themselves trapped in marriages for years because their husbands refuse to agree to a divorce, and the Beth Din does not allow the divorce even when civil divorces are being granted?

Jewish and Christian marriage is different from the outset: it is inherently covenantal - a lifelong covental promise before an Holy God. Divorce or annulment within the church (or synagogue) is a matter that goes beyond mere legality. Yet on the legal side, no Western woman is denied a divorce—she simply goes to court, and she grows up knowing that if her marriage is bad enough, she has that option. Whether or not she would be considered an adulteress after a legal divorce is a religious question alone.

Islamic marriage, by contrast, is contractual - it's only good so long as the contract is being uphekd by the parties involved A civil judge can rule on the terms of that contract and grant a divorce as far as the contract conforms to the laws of the land (for example, no contract can deprive a mother of contact with her children). Civil courts always honor written, witnessed, and signed contracts—and there is no Islamic marriage without one.

The only reason to appeal to a sharia court in the UK is to deprive the woman of her rights under English law, because Islam inherently grants her fewer rights. If she wants a sheikh’s approval for divorce, she can meet with him privately. But English law already covers everything—because Islamic marriage is a contract under civil law. In truth, a parallel sharia court is unnecessary. In Islamic lands sharia courts are simply called “court.”

I cannot speak in detail to Jewish law, but Western Jewish women know they can always obtain a civil divorce in court and be legally resolved from a civil standpoint.

Now ask an Afghan woman who has lived in the UK for ten years if she understands the difference between English courts and sharia courts, and whether she feels she can choose English law.

What we rally have, then, are two distinct cultures operating within the same country—one with full protection under English law, and another that deliberately withholds those protections from women. Multiculturalism may sound ideal, but the reality is not: it divides, it subjects women to horrible situations, and it keeps them under the control of very domineering people—some of them openly abusive.

If people come to a country, they need to integrate into it, not just bring their slaves and keep them in slavery in your country.
 
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JosephZ

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They aren't handling them legally - which I clearly pointed out - but anywhere else on earth things like divorce, inheritance, child custody arrangements and so forth are a matter of actual civil law.
You said "women are being hauled in front of these councils for matters of actual case law." That is incorrect.

but anywhere else on earth things like divorce, inheritance, child custody arrangements and so forth are a matter of actual civil law.
Religious only marriages without legal registration take place in just about everywhere, including the United States.

As a former Muslim I can tell you, the only place you should be if your husband is refusing to give you a divorce is the English legal system, because there you'll actually get one.
Not if someone is in a religious only marriage that doesn't meet the requirements to be legally recognized.

You can stop trying to sell that to me. I was bought out of it by Christ.

It’s not rainbows and unicorns.

Muslim women—even in parts of the UK—often cannot freely leave their homes. Many are not allowed to drive, and some never even learn how.

For many, social contact is limited to other women during holidays or Fridays at the mosque, with perhaps a little interaction through their husband’s friends and relatives. But because everything is segregated, even that contact remains very limited.

Language is another barrier. Many women do not know the local language well, if at all, which means they rarely converse with their neighbors outside the community.

In traditional households, men run the errands and do the shopping. Women are expected to cook whatever they are given. That leaves few opportunities for them to engage in wider community life.

On top of this, their only support system is the very community that controls them. Cut off from broader society, they are less inclined—and less able—to fight for themselves.
What you are describing here is a situation that only a small percentage of Muslim women would find themselves in and is not representative of the experiences most Muslim women have, especially in the West.


Islamic marriage, by contrast, is contractual - it's only good so long as the contract is being uphekd by the parties involved A civil judge can rule on the terms of that contract and grant a divorce as far as the contract conforms to the laws of the land (for example, no contract can deprive a mother of contact with her children). Civil courts always honor written, witnessed, and signed contracts—and there is no Islamic marriage without one.

The only reason to appeal to a sharia court in the UK is to deprive the woman of her rights under English law, because Islam inherently grants her fewer rights. If she wants a sheikh’s approval for divorce, she can meet with him privately. But English law already covers everything—because Islamic marriage is a contract under civil law. In truth, a parallel sharia court is unnecessary. In Islamic lands sharia courts are simply called “court.”
You seem to have it backwards. Shar'ia councils in the UK were initially established for women so they could get divorced when their husbands refused. Today 90% of divorces that are taken up by Shar'ia councils in the UK are initiated by women, and most of these divorces are granted. If it weren't for Shar'ia councils, these women would be trapped in marriages they no longer wanted to be a part of. There is, of course, room for abuse by Shar'ia councils, especially some of the smaller ones where extremist interpretations of Islam are more likely to be found, and some women may find themselves in situations where they are treated unjustly by a Shar'ia council, but they can take their case to another Shar'ia council where they may have things ruled in their favor.

What we rally have, then, are two distinct cultures operating within the same country—one with full protection under English law, and another that deliberately withholds those protections from women.
There aren't two systems of justice in the UK. All people are treated equally under English law.
 
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Hazelelponi

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You seem to have it backwards. Shar'ia councils in the UK were initially established for women

I want you to listen to yourself for just a minute.

You said:
Shar'ia councils in the UK were initially established for women so they could get divorced when their husbands refused.

You telling me, that the court system in Great Britain cannot handle a contested divorce? Like really? They've never had one before?

And your telling me not only are they clueless as to how we legally resolve contested divorces, but it's so bad that Muslim women legally living in and/or citizens of the UK, must stand before a court where her testimony is worth half her husband.

Half her husband. Anything she says must actually be proven through eye witnesses to any event that might come up in divorce. Any he said/she said scenario and only his testimony is counted.

Not only that, but domestic violence against the women is not cause for divorce, because he's allowed under Islamic law to beat her to a pulp if he wants.

So if he's abusive, he could still get full custody of his children - because any children produced in the marriage are his by law, not hers. his children. So he can be awarded full custody regardless of abuse in the home.

Protection under Western laws usually entails things such as giving the woman's court testimony as being equal in weight to the testimony of the man and domestic violence is allowed as cause to keep custody of your children -

I'm sure glad I don't live in a country that can't manage a contested divorce amongst their Muslim population any better than depriving women of their legal rights under Western laws while living in their western nation.

But they really really really didn't want their testimony to be equal to the man and they wanted to potentially lose custody of their children to an abuser or even potentially be denied a divorce in the first place.

I'm sure that's truly the case (where's that roll eyes emoji?) certainly no one really desires to be equal under the law in a divorce, and surely they should have magically known the laws and be willing to fight to have the English hear their case because apparently the English have decided immigrant women are not worth enough to make sure they don't have to fight a nutty man to get a real divorce and a fair hearing.
 
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Hazelelponi

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What you are describing here is a situation that only a small percentage of Muslim women would find themselves in

There's a lot of extremists in the UK, the number of Sharia Councils tells you that.

If that percentage of councils was in the US there would be more than 6,700 of them.

When your Muslim population is small, you shouldn't need nearly 40% of the number of the nations civil courts be sharia councils. It's a crazy large number for such a small country who doesn't have that large a percentage of Muslims - at least on paper.

And while I understand my particular circumstances were more unique, it's a positive for the nation to make sure these marriages and divorces are registered with the state, and run through the states actual legal system.

Divorces include tons of information about the parties involved, and can lead to the state knowing who should be deported and barred from re-entry because they are a potential danger to the nation.

In a place with a large number of extremists - such as the UK, it's a handy thing to know that state can partner with women in danger and get information on terrorists.

It's a win, but it starts with making sure these women are actually receiving protection under the law in the first place.

All these courts need to be closed is my vote, in every western nation. They are wholly unnecessary when our civil courts can handle contract-marriage divorces just fine.

These aren't covenant marriages - women in Islam are just bought and sold under contract. There's no requirement for a special court, and in Islamic lands these are just regular courts that deal with divorce.
 
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rebornfree

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I'm in the UK. There are no sharia courts, but there are sharia councils, which are advisory councils for Muslims. They have no legal authority. We live under British laws made through our Parliament.
 
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