By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

NewLifeInChristJesus · Wednesday at 10:46 AM

Soyeong said:
What do you mean by "legalism"? If it is legalism for God to graciously teach us to obey His law and it is legalism for Jesus to graciously set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it, then legalism would be a good thing, but that is not what I think it means.

You have identified the main element of legalism. It is an attempt to be declared righteous (i.e., justified) by God on the basis of one's obedience to His laws. His laws include all His dictates that distinguish right from wrong. The first and greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, mind, body, etc. The second greatest one is to love your neighbor as yourself. Perhaps the third and fourth greatest ones are the commands to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect and to be holy as He is holy. There are obviously many other laws in addition to these.

Jesus made it clear that fulfilling these laws is not reduced to carring them out in the flesh. Hatred and lust, for instance, break the laws concerning murder and adultery. Certainly, the societal impacts of physical murder are greater than murder committed only in the heart, but that doesn't aquit a person of breaking the law when he hates someone. What this means is that the declaration of a person as righteous must also include a declaration that the person's thoughts and intents are righteous in addition to his physical actions.

You say nobody is perfect, and you are right about that. I think we also would agree that nobody is perfectly holy, that nobody is perfectly righteous, and nobody perfectly obeys God's laws. And if we could discern the thoughts and intents of peoples' hearts, then I am sure we would be even more convinced of these facts.

What does this tell us? As you have already agreed, it tells us that "no one is justified (i.e., declared righteous) by the law in the sight of God" (Ga 3:11). God does not declare people to be righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law because no person passes that test. He knows the truth of the matter better than we do, and even we can sense that nobody is perfect, especially ourselves.

So, back to the question... Legalism is seeking to be declared righteous by God on the basis of our obedience to His laws. It is not simply a declaration from us that we are righteous because we obey God's laws. It is asking God, who knows everything and sees everything, to put His stamp of approval on our thoughts, intents, and conduct and declare that we are in full compliance with His laws. And those who preach legalism tell other people that they should seek God's declaration of righteousness through their obedience to His laws.

If you are not doing this, then fine. There is nothing wrong with trying your best to love God, to love your neighbor, to be perfect, and to be holy (etc). But everyone should understand that God will not look at us and declare us righteous on the basis of our success. He will only declare us righteous if we trust that Jesus' sacrifice for our failures to obey is sufficient for us.

Soyeong said:
Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.

What exactly do you think is being communicated by saying that God's nature is righteous if there is no connection to God's works?

You're welcome.

I stated that there is no such thing as someone being righteous apart from also being a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law. I did not state that there is no concept in Scripture that faith is counted as righteousness. While the only way for someone to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, what it means for someone to become righteous is for them to become a doer of righteous works. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of His obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and that his faith embodied his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they were embodying his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

No, the fact that we are declared righteous by faith apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works, which is not righteousness through obedience to the law.

People in the Bible stated that someone else was more righteous than them (Genesis 38:26, 1 Samuel 24:17), so righteousness is not all or nothing, but rather for someone to be righteous means that their life is direct at being a doer of righteous works. Someone being righteous does not mean that they always do what is righteous, but that it is the goal that they are aimed at and when they have not acted righteously, then they repent. Likewise, someone being courageous does not mean that they have always acted courageously, but that their goal is to act courageously and they repent when they have not.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent hi ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law. We can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. The significance of our obedience to God's law is not that is is part of something that we are required to have successfully done first in order to earn becoming right with God as the result, but rather the significance is that it is the way to embody our faith, and it is by that faith that we are made right with God. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. Repentance is inherently an act of faith by turning away from doing what is right in our own eyes towards trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly leads us through His law and he will make our way straight.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 10:52 AM

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Jas 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
Jas 1:24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside … lawbreakers Rev 22:15 Mat 7:23 Heb 10:26-30

Legalism is not a term from Scripture, it’s a man-made idea that sadly people use against what God asks of His children to keep by our love and devotion to Him.

Soyeong · Wednesday at 8:25 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
You have identified the main element of legalism. It is an attempt to be declared righteous (i.e., justified) by God on the basis of one's obedience to His laws.

Then I am not promoting legalism according to your definition. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to God’s law, then they still wouldn’t earn their righteousness as the result, so the reason why we can’t become righteous as the result of our obedience is not because we fall short of perfection but because God’s law was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place. That has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. The one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous through faith (Genesis 15:6) and the one and only to embody that faith is by teaching how to be a doer of righteous works, which is how Abraham spread the Gospel that was made known in advance to him in accordance with the promise (Genesis 18:19, Galatians 3:8).

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, or in other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are embodying His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being a doer of justice in obedience to His instructions, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth, and it is through this faith alone that we attain the character traits of God. In other words, God’s Word is His instructions for how to believe in God’s Word made flesh and it is through this faith alone that we are declared righteous.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
His laws include all His dictates that distinguish right from wrong. The first and greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, mind, body, etc. The second greatest one is to love your neighbor as yourself.

In Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching God’s law.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Perhaps the third and fourth greatest ones are the commands to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect and to be holy as He is holy. There are obviously many other laws in addition to these.

It would be pointless to instruct people who have already sinned to have perfect obedience, rather Jesus was speaking in Matthew 5:43-48 about having a live that is full, complete, or refined, where we don’t just love those who love us but also love our enemies.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Jesus made it clear that fulfilling these laws is not reduced to carring them out in the flesh. Hatred and lust, for instance, break the laws concerning murder and adultery. Certainly, the societal impacts of physical murder are greater than murder committed only in the heart, but that doesn't aquit a person of breaking the law when he hates someone. What this means is that the declaration of a person as righteous must also include a declaration that the person's thoughts and intents are righteous in addition to his physical actions.

The works of the flesh are all contrary to God’s law, so it is not obeyed in the flesh. We are commanded not to hate our brother in Leviticus 19:17, so Jesus was not teaching anything that was brand new.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
You say nobody is perfect, and you are right about that. I think we also would agree that nobody is perfectly holy, that nobody is perfectly righteous, and nobody perfectly obeys God's laws. And if we could discern the thoughts and intents of peoples' hearts, then I am sure we would be even more convinced of these facts.

The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
What does this tell us? As you have already agreed, it tells us that "no one is justified (i.e., declared righteous) by the law in the sight of God" (Ga 3:11). God does not declare people to be righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law because no person passes that test. He knows the truth of the matter better than we do, and even we can sense that nobody is perfect, especially ourselves.

That was never a test in the first place.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
So, back to the question... Legalism is seeking to be declared righteous by God on the basis of our obedience to His laws. It is not simply a declaration from us that we are righteous because we obey God's laws. It is asking God, who knows everything and sees everything, to put His stamp of approval on our thoughts, intents, and conduct and declare that we are in full compliance with His laws. And those who preach legalism tell other people that they should seek God's declaration of righteousness through their obedience to His laws.

There is still the is that many people are stated as being righteous by the Bible in spite of the fact that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
If you are not doing this, then fine. There is nothing wrong with trying your best to love God, to love your neighbor, to be perfect, and to be holy (etc). But everyone should understand that God will not look at us and declare us righteous on the basis of our success. He will only declare us righteous if we trust that Jesus' sacrifice for our failures to obey is sufficient for us.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law (Acts 21:20).

NewLifeInChristJesus · Thursday at 10:28 AM

Soyeong said:
Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to God’s law, then they still wouldn’t earn their righteousness as the result, so the reason why we can’t become righteous as the result of our obedience is not because we fall short of perfection but because God’s law was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place. That has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. The one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous through faith (Genesis 15:6)

Ok, then we agree that the law was given to confine all under sin, and as a result, no one will never be declared righteous on the basis of his obedience to the law.

Soyeong said:
and the one and only to embody that faith is by teaching how to be a doer of righteous works, which is how Abraham spread the Gospel that was made known in advance to him in accordance with the promise (Genesis 18:19, Galatians 3:8).

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, or in other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law we are embodying His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God’s goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by being a doer of justice in obedience to His instructions, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth, and it is through this faith alone that we attain the character traits of God. In other words, God’s Word is His instructions for how to believe in God’s Word made flesh and it is through this faith alone that we are declared righteous.

No, I guess we don't agree after all. You express approval of the Scriptures that say righteousness comes through faith and not through obedience to the law, but then you undo it all by making "obedience to God's law" the measuring stick to gauge the genuinness of one's faith. You see the problem here, don't you? It should be obvious that if no person will be declared righteous on the basis of his obedience to the law, then no person will be declared righteous on the basis of his faith which is proven by his obedience to the law. Saying it a 3rd way, we could say,

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. (Ro 3:21–22)

You do know what "apart from" means, right? BDAG says it pertains "to occurring separately or being separate, separately, apart, by itself". In other words, it can't be connected with obedience to the law because faith is separate from obedience to the law and stands alone by itself.

Soyeong said:
The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world

No, not really. God had to be the one who sacrificed Himself for our sins because He is the only one who could have taken on sin and survive it.

Soyeong said:
- the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

Yes, we do agree on that. But it is not clear that we agree on the means by which our sins may be forgiven. That's the whole point of this discussion, is it not?

Soyeong · Thursday at 11:37 AM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Ok, then we agree that the law was given to confine all under sin, and as a result, no one will never be declared righteous on the basis of his obedience to the law.

Works can be done for a variety reasons, such as if we love someone, we trust in someone, we want to impress someone, or we want to earn a wage from someone, so the Bible can speak against being required to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to do them for the reasons for which which God commanded them. We can do works that embody our faith in God, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works or with all of the examples listed in Hebrews 11 of people having justifying faith being them doing works. The Bible repeatedly connect our faith in God with our works, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received graces in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. In John 3:36, having faith in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting God's law before him. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equates unbelief with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. And so forth.

There are also many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is through faith and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, which is again connecting the two.

So the significance of someone doing an act of charity for example is not that it is part of what they are required to have done first in order to earn their righteousness as the result, but rather the significance is that it is embodying their faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live and it is by that faith alone that they are declared righteous.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
No, I guess we don't agree after all. You express approval of the Scriptures that say righteousness comes through faith and not through obedience to the law, but then you undo it all by making "obedience to God's law" the measuring stick to gauge the genuinness of one's faith. You see the problem here, don't you? It should be obvious that if no person will be declared righteous on the basis of his obedience to the law, then no person will be declared righteous on the basis of his faith which is proven by his obedience to the law. Saying it a 3rd way, we could say,

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. (Ro 3:21–22)

You do know what "apart from" means, right? BDAG says it pertains "to occurring separately or being separate, separately, apart, by itself". In other words, it can't be connected with obedience to the law because faith is separate from obedience to the law and stands alone by itself.

Those verses are saying that we are declared righteous apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but it is not denying that we are embody our faith through our works and be declared righteous through that faith. In Romans 3:31, Paul wanted to make sure that we did not misunderstand him as saying that being justified by faith apart from does means that we do not need to uphold God's law, but rather our faith it.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
No, not really. God had to be the one who sacrificed Himself for our sins because He is the only one who could have taken on sin and survive it.

The fact that God saves us even though we have not had perfect obedience means that our salvation does not require us to have perfect obedience. Repentance does not change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so it we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Yes, we do agree on that. But it is not clear that we agree on the means by which our sins may be forgiven. That's the whole point of this discussion, is it not?

Forgiveness of sins is not earned as the result of our works, but rather it only comes through faith which is embodied by our works. In Titus 2:14, the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

NewLifeInChristJesus · Friday at 7:36 AM

Soyeong said:
Works can be done for a variety reasons, such as if we love someone, we trust in someone, we want to impress someone, or we want to earn a wage from someone, so the Bible can speak against being required to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to do them for the reasons for which which God commanded them. We can do works that embody our faith in God, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works or with all of the examples listed in Hebrews 11 of people having justifying faith being them doing works. The Bible repeatedly connect our faith in God with our works, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received graces in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. In John 3:36, having faith in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting God's law before him. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equates unbelief with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. And so forth.

There are also many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is through faith and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, which is again connecting the two.

So the significance of someone doing an act of charity for example is not that it is part of what they are required to have done first in order to earn their righteousness as the result, but rather the significance is that it is embodying their faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live and it is by that faith alone that they are declared righteous.

Those verses are saying that we are declared righteous apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but it is not denying that we are embody our faith through our works and be declared righteous through that faith. In Romans 3:31, Paul wanted to make sure that we did not misunderstand him as saying that being justified by faith apart from does means that we do not need to uphold God's law, but rather our faith it.

The fact that God saves us even though we have not had perfect obedience means that our salvation does not require us to have perfect obedience. Repentance does not change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so it we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience.

Forgiveness of sins is not earned as the result of our works, but rather it only comes through faith which is embodied by our works. In Titus 2:14, the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

It appears that forgiveness/salvation/righteousness through the works of the law is your core belief. Do you have any fear that your works may let you down in the end?

Soyeong · Friday at 4:22 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
It appears that forgiveness/salvation/righteousness through the works of the law is your core belief. Do you have any fear that your works may let you down in the end?

I do not hold the position that we should obey works of the law but have only spoken in favor of followers of Christ following his example of obedience to the Law of God. I have not spoken in favor of earning our forgiveness/salvation/righteousness as the result of our obedience to the Law of God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is intrinsically part of the content of His gift of those things.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Friday at 7:25 PM

Soyeong said:
I do not hold the position that we should obey works of the law but have only spoken in favor of followers of Christ following his example of obedience to the Law of God. I have not spoken in favor of earning our forgiveness/salvation/righteousness as the result of our obedience to the Law of God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is intrinsically part of the content of His gift of those things.

Maybe it's a language barrier. You said,

Forgiveness of sins is not earned as the result of our works, but rather it only comes through faith which is embodied by our works. In Titus 2:14, the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

This can be simplified to one sentence without perverting what was written: "Forgiveness only comes by faith (which is defined as 'becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law')". The chronology embodied in this language is that 1) a person becomes "zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's laws", 2) God counts this as faith "in what Jesus accomplished through the cross", and 3) God forgives the person's sins.

Did you intend to put forgiveness of sins earlier in the chronology?

Soyeong · 2025-08-24T00:05:12-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Maybe it's a language barrier.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God. For someone to interpret Galatians 3:10-12 as referring to the Law of God as not being of faith is to deny the faithfulness of the Lawgiver.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
You said,

Forgiveness of sins is not earned as the result of our works, but rather it only comes through faith which is embodied by our works. In Titus 2:14, the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

This can be simplified to one sentence without perverting what was written: "Forgiveness only comes by faith (which is defined as 'becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law')". The chronology embodied in this language is that 1) a person becomes "zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's laws", 2) God counts this as faith "in what Jesus accomplished through the cross", and 3) God forgives the person's sins.

Did you intend to put forgiveness of sins earlier in the chronology?

The causal order starts with faith, but the series is like a hand moving a stick that is moving a rock that is all happening at the same time rather than like a father who begets a son who then later begets another son. So 1) A person has faith in God to guide them in how to rightly live, 2) This looks like them be a follower of God's guidance, 3) This also looks like God forgiving them for not following His guidance.

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By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

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