Believers being bullied by other brothers and sisters in Christ.

com7fy8 · Aug 15, 2025

JO Standing firm in Jesus said:
Recently, I have been hearing

But you do not say you yourself have been bullied . . . only "hearing".

JO Standing firm in Jesus said:
Matthew 11:28-30 which says, "Come to Me, all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke and learn from Me, because I am lowly and humble in heart, and will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Jesus expects us to love our enemies. And Jesus says, "bless those who curse you," in Matthew 5:44 and also in Luke 6:28. And while we love any and all people the way Jesus says, we have His "rest for your souls". Because in His all-loving love we have this rest . . . right while evil people are attacking and bullying us. Because Jesus love has God's own almighty power to keep us safe from being hurt and suffering and fearing and arguing and anger and unforgiveness.

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

So, in case I am being criticized for how I really am wrong . . . of course, I can get hurt and feel bullied. Because my pride is hurt. But in case I am being strong in Jesus love, I can not be hurt by people who are wrong. Plus, I can bless them; I have power to pray God's good to wrong people > in God's love we have hope for any wrong person, at all > love "hopes all things" > in 1 Corinthians 13:7. So, while I am right with God, I pray God's good for people who have done me wrong.

And where there might be a bully, in some church, I often have been able also to discover genuinely Christian people. And it was worthwhile to go there so I could share with the ones who were so good for me. So, it is wise not to let wrong people have power to decide how I am and what I do and where I go. But trust Jesus to guide me, knowing how Jesus was bullied right in the Jewish temple, but He stayed there to do good to the ones who honored and desired Him.

Dan1988 · Saturday at 5:32 PM

jmldn2 said:
Yes no one enjoys their sins to be exposed. Also, who of us are without sin. As for me, I leave the judging up to the Lord. If I am a forgiven sinner, how do I go to someone else and declare they are living a sinful life?????

But Christ commands His people to judge everyone, by their fruits. I can't have any fellowship with someone who claims to be a born again Christian, whilst they are living a sinful lifestyle. The fact that they are living a sinful lifestyle, means they are not truly born again and they are false professors and I'm commanded to judge them in -

Matt 7:15-20 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

The command to judge everyone by their fruit, is not to condemn them to hell, as that's what Jesus does, so it's His job and not mine. But I need to judge everyone by their fruits, in order to place them into their category.
For example, if a couple of regular visitors to our Church are living together while they are unmarried, the Church needs to confront them and demand they stop it or they can't become members of the Church.

We are not condemning them to hell by rejecting them, as only Jesus casts people into hell. But we have the right to reject their application to become Church members and to have no fellowship with them.

There are many other lifestyle choices, which we as a Church judge to be unacceptable, just as Jesus will reject such people on judgement day.

Paul made it clear that none of the following will inherit the Kingdom of God, -

1 Cor 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

As we can see, Jesus rejects such people so they will not enter heaven, so why do you think the have a right to be joined to His Body the Church. This is why we carefully scrutinize and closely examine the personal lives of those who apply for Church membership, to see if there are any sinful behaviours they need to stop before we consider their application.

We have a duty, as a Church to make sure that we don't accept anyone who practices sin into our Church. We have a zero tolerance policy, just as the Apostolic Church had. We model our Church on the Apostolic Church which Christ established, as there is only One true Church.

If a Church allows it's members to live sinful lifestyles, them it becomes an apostate Church. Jesus has a lot to say about such Churches in the book of Revelation.

Lost Witness · Saturday at 6:04 PM

We ALL stumble in our words..

Dan1988 · Saturday at 10:44 PM

jmldn2 said:
Yes no one enjoys their sins to be exposed. Also, who of us are without sin. As for me, I leave the judging up to the Lord. If I am a forgiven sinner, how do I go to someone else and declare they are living a sinful life?????

Nobody is saying that we are without sin, everyone knows that we are regularly overwhelmed by temptation and we fall into sin. But it's very different for those who give themselves to sin, they sin because that's what they are and they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

We know Gods people wrestle against their fleshy desires, we don't just give ourselves over to serve our sin nature and Satan as unbelievers and false professors do.

If I share the gospel with someone living a sinful lifestyle, it's an act of love and not an act of hatred or condemnation. The gospel is a sweet smelling aroma to Gods people, but it is the stench of death to sinners. They hate the gospel, because it exposes their sin.

If you knew someone living one of these sinful lifestyles, mentioned in the book of Corinthians, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And you don't warn that person, then you can't claim to love them. If you had cancer and your Doctor and didn't tell you about it, because he didn't want to offend you, then your blood would be on his hands, just as the blood of those we don't warn will be on our hands.

CoreyD · Sunday at 1:28 PM

Dan1988 said:
Nobody is saying that we are without sin, everyone knows that we are regularly overwhelmed by temptation and we fall into sin. But it's very different for those who give themselves to sin, they sin because that's what they are and they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

We know Gods people wrestle against their fleshy desires, we don't just give ourselves over to serve our sin nature and Satan as unbelievers and false professors do.

If I share the gospel with someone living a sinful lifestyle, it's an act of love and not an act of hatred or condemnation. The gospel is a sweet smelling aroma to Gods people, but it is the stench of death to sinners. They hate the gospel, because it exposes their sin.

If you knew someone living one of these sinful lifestyles, mentioned in the book of Corinthians, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And you don't warn that person, then you can't claim to love them. If you had cancer and your Doctor and didn't tell you about it, because he didn't want to offend you, then your blood would be on his hands, just as the blood of those we don't warn will be on our hands.

You made some very good points, and I like how you made the distinction between judging what is rotten, from judging an individual.
So many a church has watered down God's word to the point their members do not even know they are sinning.
Only recently, I spoke to some young people who proudly identified themselves as Christians, and were cursing very badly, and talking about their immoral practices, in a proud way.
This is why people need to understand how reprehensible thousands of churches are for failing societies, so that they can identify rotten trees producing rotten fruit.

Not all trees are company.
If an orchard has rotten trees, soon enough the whole orchard will be the same.
That's why Jesus spoke of cutting branches not producing fruit from the vine, and burning them. Also, cleaning the vine, so that it produces more good fruit.
Jesus' illustrations were so powerful in making the point clear. John 15:1-8

jmldn2 · Sunday at 2:54 PM

Dan1988 said:
Nobody is saying that we are without sin, everyone knows that we are regularly overwhelmed by temptation and we fall into sin. But it's very different for those who give themselves to sin, they sin because that's what they are and they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

We know Gods people wrestle against their fleshy desires, we don't just give ourselves over to serve our sin nature and Satan as unbelievers and false professors do.

If I share the gospel with someone living a sinful lifestyle, it's an act of love and not an act of hatred or condemnation. The gospel is a sweet smelling aroma to Gods people, but it is the stench of death to sinners. They hate the gospel, because it exposes their sin.

If you knew someone living one of these sinful lifestyles, mentioned in the book of Corinthians, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And you don't warn that person, then you can't claim to love them. If you had cancer and your Doctor and didn't tell you about it, because he didn't want to offend you, then your blood would be on his hands, just as the blood of those we don't warn will be on our hands.

Sharing the Good News is important for all believers. That is not what I am referring to whenever I speak about judging. I believe God leads us to those who are "without understanding" and that itself is the opportunity to share agape love. As for "cancer", I have had it twice and by the Grace of God I have survived each time. I left my church because of the "bishops exclaiming homosexuals have a place in the leadership of the church." My point about judging is that I am a forgiven sinner who can/should pray for those I know are without the Lord and if I am led to a particular person by the Holy Spirit to spread to that individual about the Gospel, yes, then it is up to me to show agape love.

jmldn2 · Sunday at 3:00 PM

Dan1988 said:
But Christ commands His people to judge everyone, by their fruits. I can't have any fellowship with someone who claims to be a born again Christian, whilst they are living a sinful lifestyle. The fact that they are living a sinful lifestyle, means they are not truly born again and they are false professors and I'm commanded to judge them in -

Matt 7:15-20 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

The command to judge everyone by their fruit, is not to condemn them to hell, as that's what Jesus does, so it's His job and not mine. But I need to judge everyone by their fruits, in order to place them into their category.
For example, if a couple of regular visitors to our Church are living together while they are unmarried, the Church needs to confront them and demand they stop it or they can't become members of the Church.

We are not condemning them to hell by rejecting them, as only Jesus casts people into hell. But we have the right to reject their application to become Church members and to have no fellowship with them.

There are many other lifestyle choices, which we as a Church judge to be unacceptable, just as Jesus will reject such people on judgement day.

Paul made it clear that none of the following will inherit the Kingdom of God, -

1 Cor 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
As we can see, Jesus rejects such people so they will not enter heaven, so why do you think the have a right to be joined to His Body the Church. This is why we carefully scrutinize and closely examine the personal lives of those who apply for Church membership, to see if there are any sinful behaviours they need to stop before we consider their application.

We have a duty, as a Church to make sure that we don't accept anyone who practices sin into our Church. We have a zero tolerance policy, just as the Apostolic Church had. We model our Church on the Apostolic Church which Christ established, as there is only One true Church.

If a Church allows it's members to live sinful lifestyles, them it becomes an apostate Church. Jesus has a lot to say about such Churches in the book of Revelation.

I know of no church that is without sin. I know of no christen without sin. I know lots of good hearted people who try living as the Lord has said yet who stumble. I do know the "church" is the Body of Christ." I do know many churches today who are like the Pharisees, Saducees, and have more rules to follow than which shows the love of Jesus.

stevevw · Monday at 4:35 AM

CoreyD said:
I was thinking of two particular scriptures, and one fact of history, as I read your post.
The two scriptures are Acts 20:30, and1 John 2:19.
The historical fact is, schisms in Christianity has been ongoing from the first century, and has not reversed,

What do we learn from this?
I learned that when there are divisions in the congregation of God, it is either rectified immediately, as in the case of Acts 15:1-35, with follow up visits from overseers, to make sure the unity is maintained. Acts 15:36-41
Or, the division results in a breakaway on the part of the peacebreakers, because it is a work of Satan. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

Jesus referred to it as a sifting. Luke 22:31, where the unsuitable vessels fall through the holes, and the suitable remain. Matthew 13:47, 48; 1 Corinthians 3:10-15; 2 Timothy 2:20-22
The apostles referred to it as Satan gathering ministers to teach what appears to be truth, but is really watered down, demonic and tainted with lies doctrines. 2 Corinthians 11:12-15; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-5

So, those looking for some kind of revival, where these more than 45,000 denominations unite, perhaps they missed when that happened, and we have a warning to make sure we separate from what Satan has organized, because there can be no unity between Christ and Satan. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

It just cannot happen. Just as oil and water can never mix.

I sense in Pauls writings especially that he was constantly worried about individuals and groups rising up to undermine the teachings he is often is reminding them of.

Like it was the same battle of the individual between the flesh and the spirit. Like the church itself is fighting the battle as a community and has to always be ready to defend itself from the wolves.

Even moreso today as I think in Pauls time they were clear because they did not allow the outside world to come into the church. But today for a growing number of churches its hard to tell the difference.

Thats why I think more than ever we need to be cautious. The problem is the idea of truth itself, that there is one unified truth is seen as controlling. So its a cultural wide shift into postmodernist thinking that has encroached on the church. That it is wrong to declare and stand on a single truth and this is oppressing others.

Which then makes those churches the bad guys and others the good guys. Thats why the church should have nothing to do with the same political games that are happening in mainstream society. Just stick to what they are to do best which is being Christlike. Helping the poor and being good examples in behaviour.

CoreyD · Monday at 10:08 AM

stevevw said:
I sense in Pauls writings especially that he was constantly worried about individuals and groups rising up to undermine the teachings he is often is reminding them of.

Like it was the same battle of the individual between the flesh and the spirit. Like the church itself is fighting the battle as a community and has to always be ready to defend itself from the wolves.

Even moreso today as I think in Pauls time they were clear because they did not allow the outside world to come into the church. But today for a growing number of churches its hard to tell the difference.

Thats why I think more than ever we need to be cautious. The problem is the idea of truth itself, that there is one unified truth is seen as controlling. So its a cultural wide shift into postmodernist thinking that has encroached on the church. That it is wrong to declare and stand on a single truth and this is oppressing others.

Which then makes those churches the bad guys and others the good guys. Thats why the church should have nothing to do with the same political games that are happening in mainstream society. Just stick to what they are to do best which is being Christlike. Helping the poor and being good examples in behaviour.

I know it's hard for many, and I know that it is impossible... I use the word impossible, not because each individual cannot observe it, but because the heart refuses to let the individual observe it... it is impossible for many to see what is clearly written - the truth, which states that only few find the narrow door that opens to the narrow path leading to life. While the masses flood through the broad road leading to destruction, because they have itching ears, for what the many false prophets who have turned away from the truth, tells them.

I said a mouthful there, but one who knows the scriptures well can pinpoint the five scriptures I referred to in my comment.
Can you connect the five verses?
Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes - so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’
2 Corinthians 4:4 the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Matthew 7:13, 14 Enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad the way leading to destruction, and many are those entering through it. For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it.
2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to the own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves,
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets will rise up and mislead many people. (1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.)

While there are sincere people out their, whom have not hardened their heart, while turning their ears to what they want to hear, these will come to know the truth eventually, because their heart will lead them to it, due to humbling themselves.
I should rather say, God will lead them to the truth. John 6:44
Some who right now have itching ears for the watered down word of God, will also find the truth, because their heart will soften.

However, there are many, many, many... who will not soften their heart, and they will remain blind, because God knows their heart, and he lets them remain blind. The Bible says he gives them a strong delusion, so that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12

So, while there are many who cannot see that Satan has his own organized religion, made up of thousands of divisions, while Christ has one united body of organized worshippers.... not fighting among themselves, it is not something I am concerned about, and expect to change, or be "rectified", because I see what the scripture say... Not just I alone, because it is written clear for all to see... those who have eyes to see.
The Divisions will continue to grow, as more and more people.... or should I say, as Satan forms more churches to gather those who have itching ears, and refuse to believe the truth.

stevevw · Tuesday at 3:27 AM

CoreyD said:
I know it's hard for many, and I know that it is impossible... I use the word impossible, not because each individual cannot observe it, but because the heart refuses to let the individual observe it... it is impossible for many to see what is clearly written - the truth, which states that only few find the narrow door that opens to the narrow path leading to life. While the masses flood through the broad road leading to destruction, because they have itching ears, for what the many false prophets who have turned away from the truth, tells them.

I said a mouthful there, but one who knows the scriptures well can pinpoint the five scriptures I referred to in my comment.
Can you connect the five verses?
Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes - so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’
2 Corinthians 4:4 the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Matthew 7:13, 14 Enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad the way leading to destruction, and many are those entering through it. For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it.
2 Timothy 4:3 For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to the own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves,
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets will rise up and mislead many people. (1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.)

While there are sincere people out their, whom have not hardened their heart, while turning their ears to what they want to hear, these will come to know the truth eventually, because their heart will lead them to it, due to humbling themselves.
I should rather say, God will lead them to the truth. John 6:44
Some who right now have itching ears for the watered down word of God, will also find the truth, because their heart will soften.

However, there are many, many, many... who will not soften their heart, and they will remain blind, because God knows their heart, and he lets them remain blind. The Bible says he gives them a strong delusion, so that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12

So, while there are many who cannot see that Satan has his own organized religion, made up of thousands of divisions, while Christ has one united body of organized worshippers.... not fighting among themselves, it is not something I am concerned about, and expect to change, or be "rectified", because I see what the scripture say... Not just I alone, because it is written clear for all to see... those who have eyes to see.
The Divisions will continue to grow, as more and more people.... or should I say, as Satan forms more churches to gather those who have itching ears, and refuse to believe the truth.

A good point. At the end of the day this will continue as prohpesised. It is the spirit of God who will reveal the truth to those with an open heart to recieve it.

That may mean like the individual that the church will experience further deception before some are awakened.

I think this is where we are at. The sorting out period. As the church is more divided than ever the more it moves away the more the truth will be revealed.

The more the opposite of Christs truth is allowed the more Christs truth will shine. The more the truth is revealed and the more people are convicted. The more darkness the more the light shines out in that darkness.

This is the nature of things and we have seen how defying God leads to chaos. But hopefully out of that chaos comes peace and order and God will allow every chance for all those who are to be saved for everything to work towards that end.

Paul says that we should obey our elders and rulers and pray they will be Godly and Christlike as it pleases God that everyone be saved.

CoreyD · Tuesday at 1:21 PM

stevevw said:
A good point. At the end of the day this will continue as prohpesised. It is the spirit of God who will reveal the truth to those with an open heart to recieve it.

Thanks. It is a good point indeed, but you did not fully grasp it.

I appreciate your listening though.
You do see the state of things, but you do not see the reason for the state of things, and what that means. Please bear with me, as I attempt to make that clear. It's the crux of the matter here.

A truth you stated is this: God will reveal the truth to those with an open heart to receive it.
A good question to ask is, how - How does God reveal the truth to those with an open heart to receive it?

My answer would be... in the same way he did it during the first century, from 29 - 100 C.E, before the then leaders stopped that activity..

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom... Matthew 4:23
Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom... Matthew 9:35;
Soon afterward, Jesus traveled from one town and village to another, preaching and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with Him, as well as some women... Luke 8:1, 2
Luke 8:1-6
After this, the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of Him to every town and place He was about to visit. And He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest. Luke 10:1, 2
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you... Matthew 28:18-20
But you will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and you will be witnesses for Me, both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

Following those words... basically Jesus' last words on earth... When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:1-4
They preached the good news to every foreigner in Jerusalem, on that day.

From that point forward, the the apostles were on fire with zeal, taking the good news far and wide, as Jesus wanted his followers to do. All of their zealous activity is recorded from throughout the entire book of Acts... ending with the apostle Paul's ministry.

All of that is summed up in one scripture in the Bible. - Matthew 24:14

And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.

This is how the truth is revealed to those with an open heart to receive it.
People hear the message, and those with a humble heart, receive it, and respond to it.
A good example, I always like to point to, is this:

Some people feel that God will enlighten individuals in a special way, so that they see the truth.
However, the way God has always reached people, is by means of his ministers, and Jesus started the work, nearly 2000 years ago, with a handful of followers... namely 12.
Twelve grew to 70+. Luke 10:1
Seventy grew to 120. Acts 1:15
One hundred and twenty grew to 3000+ (Acts 2:41)... which grew to 5000+. Acts 4:4
Bare in mind that these numbers are only the men, and not counting the women. So there could have been more than 10,000 followers of Christ, by 34-35 C.E.
All of this from that one commission of Jesus, at Matthew 28:19, 20, and the reality of Matthew 24:14.

Only by means of the preaching and teaching, did persons with right hearts respond. This is throughout all the scriptures.
Sadly, many think this ministry is dead, and unimportant.
Paul explained why, and gave the precedent.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
2 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; convict, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry.

Did you notice that Paul did not take lightly the work Jesus gave his followers to do. He urged "Preach the word", and "do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry"?
What were the others doing? Turning their itching ears to things that did not involve fulfilling Jesus assignment.

Unlike Jesus' followers who recognize this work is the will of God 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, these bench warmers prefer to hear the watered down adulterated word.
Hence, the state we see today.

stevevw said:
That may mean like the individual that the church will experience further deception before some are awakened.

I picked up from this point on, that you were not grasping my point.
Jesus' Church - his body, experiences no deception, or division. It is united, as Paul said, in mind and conviction 1 Corinthians 1:10
It is also united in love, which is, again, as Paul said, [love] is the bond of perfect unity. Colossians 3:14

A body of worshipers governed by love do not have divisions. In fact, Jesus clearly says, By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another." John 13:35
Just as Jesus said, you will recognize the tree by its fruit, we need to pay attention to this.
If there are divisions, then clearly, we are seeing the fruit, and we don't want to ignore what it reveals.
To do so, would be to shut our eyes - harden our heart.

The apostles settled divisions quickly, and the elders were on hand to make sure the unity was maintained. Acts 15
Paul referred to "deception in the church", as the great apostasy, which is a work of Satan. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.
Paul said this lawless one's presence is in accordance with how Satan works.

So, when we see Satan's work, we don't want to think it cannot be. Considering that Satan is gathering his own ministers, and forming his own organized religion, how should we take Paul's words...
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Are we seeing what the scriptures are revealing before our eyes?

stevevw said:
I think this is where we are at. The sorting out period. As the church is more divided than ever the more it moves away the more the truth will be revealed.

The more the opposite of Christs truth is allowed the more Christs truth will shine. The more the truth is revealed and the more people are convicted. The more darkness the more the light shines out in that darkness.

This is the nature of things and we have seen how defying God leads to chaos. But hopefully out of that chaos comes peace and order and God will allow every chance for all those who are to be saved for everything to work towards that end.

Paul says that we should obey our elders and rulers and pray they will be Godly and Christlike as it pleases God that everyone be saved.

Deception isn't easy to spot.
However, if someone gives us the "tools" that make it easy to see, how grateful we would be.
It would be like having a microscope, so you can see the bacteria in the water we are drinking.

It is the same with religion. The Bible - God's word, was preserved by God, for these last days, when the final curtain is about to come down on Satan's system.
We want to use God's word as a lens to reveal the truth about the religions of Satan's system, that are soon to be no more.
We don't want to be caught dead in them. Dead, as in spiritually dead.

That's how we are, if we cannot identify the Church of Belial, from the Church of Christ. 2 Corinthians 6:15

Dan1988 · Wednesday at 6:11 AM

CoreyD said:
You made some very good points, and I like how you made the distinction between judging what is rotten, from judging an individual.
So many a church has watered down God's word to the point their members do not even know they are sinning.
Only recently, I spoke to some young people who proudly identified themselves as Christians, and were cursing very badly, and talking about their immoral practices, in a proud way.
This is why people need to understand how reprehensible thousands of churches are for failing societies, so that they can identify rotten trees producing rotten fruit.

Not all trees are company.
If an orchard has rotten trees, soon enough the whole orchard will be the same.
That's why Jesus spoke of cutting branches not producing fruit from the vine, and burning them. Also, cleaning the vine, so that it produces more good fruit.
Jesus' illustrations were so powerful in making the point clear. John 15:1-8

Jesus described two kinds of people.

In Joh 8:44 He said, You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Then we see Gods children being described in Galatians 4:6-7 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

There is a stark difference between Gods children and the children of the Devil. In Romans 1:26-32, we see how God deals with the children of the Devil.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

In contrast to the unbelievers, (who seem to be enjoying their sinful lives) we see that God chastising His children, by various afflictions. This may seem cruel, but it's necessary and it's for our own good. If God only gave us health, wealth and happiness, we would get too cosy in this world and we would be like ancient Israel. They turned their back on God, every time He blessed them with these things.

In Matthew 5:3-12 Jesus describes Gods children in this world.

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

As we can see, one group of people sin because God has given them over to serve their sin. The other group, mourns over their sin and we strive against the temptation to sin.

Dan1988 · Wednesday at 6:45 AM

jmldn2 said:
Sharing the Good News is important for all believers. That is not what I am referring to whenever I speak about judging. I believe God leads us to those who are "without understanding" and that itself is the opportunity to share agape love. As for "cancer", I have had it twice and by the Grace of God I have survived each time. I left my church because of the "bishops exclaiming homosexuals have a place in the leadership of the church." My point about judging is that I am a forgiven sinner who can/should pray for those I know are without the Lord and if I am led to a particular person by the Holy Spirit to spread to that individual about the Gospel, yes, then it is up to me to show agape love.

I hope you find a Church, that modelled on the Apostolic Church which Christ established. The Bible has a lot to say about how the Church is to be structured, and what qualifications a Church leader must have.

The Bible excludes homosexuals from Church leadership.

In 1 Timothy 3:2-12 we see that leaders must have a wife and children, so this immediately excludes homosexuals.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Believers are commanded to preach the gospel to every creature, but preaching the gospel and having fellowship with unbelievers are two very different things.

God forbids His children to have any fellowship with unbelievers, so we don't condemn them but neither do we confirm them in their sin.

2 Cor 6:14-15 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

The gospel has the stench of death to the unbeliever, so they will hate you for sharing the gospel with them. "Agape" love, refers to the love among brethren (believers).

Dan1988 · Wednesday at 7:14 AM

jmldn2 said:
I know of no church that is without sin. I know of no christen without sin. I know lots of good hearted people who try living as the Lord has said yet who stumble. I do know the "church" is the Body of Christ." I do know many churches today who are like the Pharisees, Saducees, and have more rules to follow than which shows the love of Jesus.

Sin in the Church is like a cancer, if it's not dealt with, it will destroy the Church. If I find out a member of our Church is sinning, I would confront them and demand they confess their sin and repent.
If they don't listen, then I would report them to the leaders, who would then confront the person and officially warn them to cease, confess and repent. If the person doesn't obey,, then they are excommunicated from the Church.

We have excommunicated several people already, and we now consider them to be infidels.

You mentioned "good hearted people", but God said "the heart of man is wicked above all things. So I believe what God has said, so there are no good hearted people.

I don't believe there are any "Pharisees" in the Body of Christ, He simply wouldn't tolerate pollution in His Body. If they try to sneak into His Body, He cuts them off and throws them into hellfire.
I'm sure there are many false Churches, where anything goes, but these are not a part of the Body of Christ. They are an abomination in His sight, so there's no way He would adopt them as members of His Body.

2PhiloVoid · Wednesday at 8:44 AM

Dan1988 said:
Sin in the Church is like a cancer, if it's not dealt with, it will destroy the Church. If I find out a member of our Church is sinning, I would confront them and demand they confess their sin and repent.
If they don't listen, then I would report them to the leaders, who would then confront the person and officially warn them to cease, confess and repent. If the person doesn't obey,, then they are excommunicated from the Church.

We have excommunicated several people already, and we now consider them to be infidels.

You mentioned "good hearted people", but God said "the heart of man is wicked above all things. So I believe what God has said, so there are no good hearted people.

I don't believe there are any "Pharisees" in the Body of Christ, He simply wouldn't tolerate pollution in His Body. If they try to sneak into His Body, He cuts them off and throws them into hellfire.
I'm sure there are many false Churches, where anything goes, but these are not a part of the Body of Christ. They are an abomination in His sight, so there's no way He would adopt them as members of His Body.

I imagine your church is growing by leaps and bounds and ready to add on to its worship sanctuary due to the overflow of incoming worshipers.

Am I right? :dontcare:

stevevw · Wednesday at 9:01 AM

CoreyD said:
Thanks. It is a good point indeed, but you did not fully grasp it. I appreciate your listening though.
You do see the state of things, but you do not see the reason for the state of things, and what that means. Please bear with me, as I attempt to make that clear. It's the crux of the matter here.

A truth you stated is this: God will reveal the truth to those with an open heart to receive it.
A good question to ask is, how - How does God reveal the truth to those with an open heart to receive it?

My answer would be... in the same way he did it during the first century, from 29 - 100 C.E, before the then leaders stopped that activity..

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom... Matthew 4:23

Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom... Matthew 9:35;

Soon afterward, Jesus traveled from one town and village to another, preaching and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with Him, as well as some women... Luke 8:1, 2

Luke 8:1-6

After this, the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of Him to every town and place He was about to visit. And He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest. Luke 10:1, 2

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you... Matthew 28:18-20

But you will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and you will be witnesses for Me, both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

Following those words... basically Jesus' last words on earth... When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:1-4
They preached the good news to every foreigner in Jerusalem, on that day.

From that point forward, the the apostles were on fire with zeal, taking the good news far and wide, as Jesus wanted his followers to do. All of their zealous activity is recorded from throughout the entire book of Acts... ending with the apostle Paul's ministry.

All of that is summed up in one scripture in the Bible. - Matthew 24:14

And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.
This is how the truth is revealed to those with an open heart to receive it.
People hear the message, and those with a humble heart, receive it, and respond to it.
A good example, I always like to point to, is this:

Some people feel that God will enlighten individuals in a special way, so that they see the truth.
However, the way God has always reached people, is by means of his ministers, and Jesus started the work, nearly 2000 years ago, with a handful of followers... namely 12.
Twelve grew to 70+. Luke 10:1
Seventy grew to 120. Acts 1:15
One hundred and twenty grew to 3000+ (Acts 2:41)... which grew to 5000+. Acts 4:4
Bare in mind that these numbers are only the men, and not counting the women. So there could have been more than 10,000 followers of Christ, by 34-35 C.E.
All of this from that one commission of Jesus, at Matthew 28:19, 20, and the reality of Matthew 24:14.

Only by means of the preaching and teaching, did persons with right hearts respond. This is throughout all the scriptures.
Sadly, many think this ministry is dead, and unimportant.
Paul explained why, and gave the precedent.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
2 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; convict, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4 So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry.

Good summary thankyou and it is exactly how I believe and see the gospel and ministry.

CoreyD said:
Did you notice that Paul did not take lightly the work Jesus gave his followers to do. He urged "Preach the word", and "do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry"?
What were the others doing? Turning their itching ears to things that did not involve fulfilling Jesus assignment.

Yes Paul was fully invested. He prolaimed 'I am not lying, I am telling you the truth'. Even commanding others to stop following myths and false ideas.

As though the spirit was so clear in him that this was the truth as much as the sun rises. There was no alternative and he could confidently declare this with authority. I think this is sadly lacking today.

CoreyD said:
Unlike Jesus' followers who recognize this work is the will of God 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, these bench warmers prefer to hear the watered down adulterated word.
Hence, the state we see today.

It is the age of watered down truth and reality and not just Gods word and Christs teachings.

It is fundementally Postmodernism or even post postmodernism where self referential truth of the individuals and group experience is the only truth. Or at least the principle truth for how we should see the world and morality and how we order society and the church even.

So the conditions for watering down the bible were cultivated by the overall worldview of western society as it has evolved from the reformation and the Enlightenment.

Which tells us this is a battle of principalities and spiritual powers fundemental to how we believe the world is. Whether by a creator and loving God or by humans as the gods of their own world.

CoreyD said:
I picked up from this point on, that you were not grasping my point.
Jesus' Church - his body, experiences no deception, or division. It is united, as Paul said, in mind and conviction 1 Corinthians 1:10
It is also united in love, which is, again, as Paul said, [love] is the bond of perfect unity. Colossians 3:14

A body of worshipers governed by love do not have divisions. In fact, Jesus clearly says, By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another." John 13:35
Just as Jesus said, you will recognize the tree by its fruit, we need to pay attention to this.
If there are divisions, then clearly, we are seeing the fruit, and we don't want to ignore what it reveals.
To do so, would be to shut our eyes - harden our heart.

I understand this and its sort of logic and non contradiction. Division and fighting are not fruits Chists would produce. So I agree that there are certain fruits of the spirit which will identify Christs church and its really as simple as that.

But the problem I was trying to point out is that I think the gospel and truth has been watered down so much and false teachers have become so good at creating narratives that almost seem loving and true that it takes strutiny to unpeel the decption beyond most.

A similar phenomena is happening in wider society. Which to me points to it actually being a cultural wide thing. But many have been foold by the false narratives and then some wakeup a few years later realising they were fooling themselves. Especially in politics.

Then it becames a game of which side has the least division and the right kinds of fruits of the spirit. Claiming many are being saved as proof of the good fruits. Its really becoming a minefield of hermeneutics and narratives where everyone is claiming the truth. While the truth is getting lost in all this white noise.

Now I know those who know God and who obey and stay true know this and can tell. But how do many out there know which church or Christian community they should belong to and not also be decieved in the name of God.

This is where I think the spirit of God will cause like minded and spirited people to endup coming together. Whatever church that will be but I would say one of the more traditional ones.

CoreyD said:
The apostles settled divisions quickly, and the elders were on hand to make sure the unity was maintained. Acts 15
Paul referred to "deception in the church", as the great apostasy, which is a work of Satan. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.
Paul said this lawless one's presence is in accordance with how Satan works.

I agree and have used this same reasoning. Paul was constantly worried about the church like a shepherd who knows there are wolves lingering around and getting into the church.

That is what I think is missing. First that overseers are properly qualified. But more so that the perception is they are not really necessary at all in the sense of how the early church functioned.

Today its more an egalitarian approach where everyone makes the decisions jointly. Authority is seen as control.

Which I might add is one of the arguements for why the progressive church is the true church. Because they are not like the bully authoritive churches. So the narrative has become a powerful tool in the culture wars.

CoreyD said:
So, when we see Satan's work, we don't want to think it cannot be. Considering that Satan is gathering his own ministers, and forming his own organized religion, how should we take Paul's words...
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Are we seeing what the scriptures are revealing before our eyes?

No I don't think so. Not generally anyway. Maybe in pockets here and there.

But this is part of the deception. That the scriptures should not be taken literally. That cultural, experiencial and modern norms should inform us as to what is Christlike.

As I said those who do stand on tradition or any authorative aspect are seen as out of date and touch. We live in a relative world where pushing single truths is seen as control.

In other words not only are the scriptures being watered down the culture within which the church exists is watered down.

CoreyD said:
Deception isn't easy to spot.
However, if someone gives us the "tools" that make it easy to see, how grateful we would be.
It would be like having a microscope, so you can see the bacteria in the water we are drinking.

It is the same with religion. The Bible - God's word, was preserved by God, for these last days, when the final curtain is about to come down on Satan's system.
We want to use God's word as a lens to reveal the truth about the religions of Satan's system, that are soon to be no more.
We don't want to be caught dead in them. Dead, as in spiritually dead.

That's how we are, if we cannot identify the Church of Belial, from the Church of Christ. 2 Corinthians 6:15

I agree. I believe that Christ installed in the disciples everything we need to build the church. To identify the good fruits of a Christian community. One of them is unity in mind and spirit. So division no matter who is right or wrong is a sign of bad fruit.

Clement I think said that division was the beginning of evil in the church. It meant some underlying issue was like cancer and if left would eat away and further compromise the church.

I think as we are now in a world which is primed for fake news, narratives and truths we cannot win anyone by just poiting out the biblical truth of the plain and clear words. As words are now themselves relative and hold multiple meanings.

Therefore I think the key destinguishing factor that can determine truth from untruths will be found in living the teachings. Paul lived the teachings. He says the members were his reference because they seen in him the teachings living a Christlike example.

Peter says that a Christlike disposition of love and obedience to God expposed evil and turned people towards God and His truth without even preaching Gods words.

This means by first living the words the disposition of the person is what is empowering the words. The words don't need a rationalising re semantics. They are embodied truths that cannot be disputed.

But also another sign of truth is consistency, calmness, and as you say love. Because love is not concieted or anxious to prove right. Its patient and kind in preserving the truth and being above reproach. So that others may also see and know that truth and also partake.

This I notice of alternative ideologies. That they are overly protective and projected as a matter of life and death. It will use emotion and manipulation and even become antagonistic against opposing beliefs. Always changing to suit what is appealing to sensitivities. But many people can fall for the emotion and appeal.

timothyu · Wednesday at 1:17 PM

S

stevevw said:
But many people can fall for the emotion and appeal

Sure. Just look at politics. Loving enemy is key to understanding love all as self

stevevw · Wednesday at 11:31 PM

timothyu said:
Sure. Just look at politics. Loving enemy is key to understanding love all as self

Yes, it use to be that as a soiety we could still love or at least accept and get along with those who had different beliefs and political views.

Now many see siding with the the opposing party is like the enermy and are to be dispised. Like they are doing something so evil they are to be shunned and even attacked and stopped. People disowning friends for simply having a different belief.

So loving the enermy is now regarded as being a traitor lol.

timothyu · 2025-08-21T00:46:28-0500

True. Remember when there was a blurb about politics on the 6 o’clock news which few paid attention to. People were reasonably civilized. Along comes cable news to stir things up, brainwash and create dissent. Finally we have the internet that gave a voice to minorities and the rabble until it is time for another Babel. Eliminate cable and internet and things will calm down once again

jmldn2 · 2025-08-21T16:31:58-0500

John 8:7

And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Ecclesiastes 7:20

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Romans 3:10

As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Humility is important to our Lord and Savior. No one is to think more highly of themselves than others. No one is without sin; either of commission or omission

The Pharisees thought they were without sin. They were very wrong as Jesus pointed out.
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Believers being bullied by other brothers and sisters in Christ.

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Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")

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John 8:7​

Ecclesiastes 7:20​

Romans 3:10​

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Romans 3:23​

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ​

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