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Spanish Inquisiton

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childeye 2

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God is love and for love to be love, it must be freely given, else what is it? A display of the power of the Almighty? God does not need to display His power. He knows it unto Himself and does not require His creation

Double predestination delays his power. Love with free will displays His Glory, of which we will sing for eternity
I have a heart for my Calvinists friends, but I could no longer join them in their theology

I would be interested which points of Catholic theolgy with which you disagree
I would like to contribute to your thread. First let me thank you for your threads. For me, they're therapeutic.

For I have already indicated to you in another thread that the inquisition obviously brings into question the validity of apostolic succession, and it actually felt good in my soul to get that off my chest. And that's all I wanted to say about that.

But here I would like to comment on God displaying His Power, God's Spirit as an incorruptible Love, and your application of the sentiment 'free will' above.

When people reference the will, the terms volition and/or desire come to mind as pertains to the term "Will". The term 'Free' is actually an adjective if it is meant to imply an uncoerced will. My immediate point here is that the term "free" must be qualified so as to comprehend what the will is free from, so as not to be redundant when describing the "will", and also so that the term 'free' doesn't become fluid and morph through subjective meanings when saying it and hearing it.

Having said that, the greater point I wish to make is that I would NOT agree that God giving us of His Spirit so as to bestow upon us His Characteristics of kindness, graciousness, caring compassion, or charitableness, would qualify as coercion since these attributes are qualities that are Light to the soul. I would even say that the only coherent meaning of a freewill in the moral/immoral context, would be a will free from the disability of sin.

Moreover, sin is corruption of that which was once pure. The first commandment is Love God with all your heart mind and soul. I therefore surmise that if I had no Love in my heart, mind and soul, I could not even care that I had no Love in my heart mind and soul.

So, as pertains to God displaying His Power, scripture speaks of the power of the cross preached through the Gospel and I interpret that as the displaying of the Incorruptible Love crucified on a cross by a wicked world. And that without this Image of God in my heart, I would probably remain subjugated under the image of the god of this world, and I would be without The Holy Spirit to convict me of sin that I would otherwise not even see.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5​

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:​

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
 
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I would like to contribute to your thread. First let me thank you for your threads. For me, they're therapeutic.

For I have already indicated to you in another thread that the inquisition obviously brings into question the validity of apostolic succession, and it actually felt good in my soul to get that off my chest. And that's all I wanted to say about that.

But here I would like to comment on God displaying His Power, God's Spirit as an incorruptible Love, and your application of the sentiment 'free will' above.

When people reference the will, the terms volition and/or desire come to mind as pertains to the term "Will". The term 'Free' is actually an adjective if it is meant to imply an uncoerced will. My immediate point here is that the term "free" must be qualified so as to comprehend what the will is free from, so as not to be redundant when describing the "will", and also so that the term 'free' doesn't become fluid and morph through subjective meanings when saying it and hearing it.

Having said that, the greater point I wish to make is that I would NOT agree that God giving us of His Spirit so as to bestow upon us His Characteristics of kindness, graciousness, caring compassion, or charitableness, would qualify as coercion since these attributes are qualities that are Light to the soul. I would even say that the only coherent meaning of a freewill in the moral/immoral context, would be a will free from the disability of sin.

Moreover, sin is corruption of that which was once pure. The first commandment is Love God with all your heart mind and soul. I therefore surmise that if I had no Love in my heart, mind and soul, I could not even care that I had no Love in my heart mind and soul.

So, as pertains to God displaying His Power, scripture speaks of the power of the cross preached through the Gospel and I interpret that as the displaying of the Incorruptible Love crucified on a cross by a wicked world. And that without this Image of God in my heart, I would probably remain subjugated under the image of the god of this world, and I would be without The Holy Spirit to convict me of sin that I would otherwise not even see.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5​

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:​

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

All we have is our ability to say yes or to say no, that is free will. We each are at different points in our life. We can cry out for help or continue on as we are. God has given us plenty of examples for us to consider.
The closest analogy that I can see is that sin is like a drug. We start small and use our will to say yes to sin, and the deeper we go, the harder it is to say no and break free. Studies have shown that the brains of addicts are so altered as to have almost no impulse control

The Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The addict and the non addict do not have the same strength of will, but they do have a choice to make. Say I am fine I’ll be alright and continue on, or see that they are on the path of death and cry out for help.

The addict knows what he does is wrong. Sometimes instead of inducing fear enough to call for help, they turn it into a joke. As the song goes, “I messed up my entire life because I got high, I lost my kids and wife because I got high, now I’m sleeping on the sidewalk and I know why. Why man? Because I got high, because I got high, because I got high.” Some people think that song is funny and it would be if it were not true.
The other analogy is that the drunk person thinks he can dance. Satan wants us comfortable with sin. Look, you are not evil, you are doing just fine, go with it. He thinks he is dancing, but everyone else can see he is drunk.
We have the choice to keep dancing or stop and sober up.


Studies have shown that the part of the brain that governs impulse control can be restored by self denial. The choice is there. Continue drugs or start the path of recovery. The words of Jesus ring clear. If anyone come after me, let him deny his very self and begin to follow in my footsteps.
The more we practice self denial, the stronger we become spiritually

The drunk man is under the deception of riches either monetarily or socially. He had lots of money to help him think he is ok, or he has lots of friends to tell him he is ok. The enticement of riches makes it hard to him to see his need. Jesus says that it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Why? Because the rich man does not think he needs it
Like those in the Church of Laodicea, he says I am rich, well fed and have need of nothing, but God says he is miserable, blind, poor, and naked.
He has a choice. Continue to dance drunk, even though Jesus says drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven, or repent and live soberly
We can listen to people that tell us we don’t have to do penance and keep dancing drunk thinking we will get a reward in heaven, or we can believe God and become poor in spirit. My behavior is deplorable, I need to stop dancing drunk and take the path of self denial that Jesus has laid before me.

Do we confess our sins or do we deny our need for repentance? The once saved always saved crowd tends to make people that continue to want to dance drunk. The sober take the path of self denial. The drunk accuse us of working our way to heaven, but we know it is us giving our will to Jesus and allowing Him to strengthen us on the way, as He says my yoke is easy and my burden light

Some addicts recover, some do not. It depends on the path we choose to take. Jesus says narrow is the way straight is the gate. Strive to enter by the straight gate
 
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Daniel Carlton

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So, you have nothing to say? You already have your conclusions and will not be moved? So why post ?

You can mischaracterize my intentions all you wish. The devil will give you no lack of accusations to use against me. But how does that serve God and follow his commands?
Exalt yourself over me if it makes you feel better, but as of yet, you added nothing to the conversation. Is that your intention?

I just said: that you are trying to justify torture and murder.

So who is really in league with the Devil? The one who tries to justify this past crimes or the one who notices the crimes?
 
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The Liturgist

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@The Liturgist is not Roman Catholic.

That’s correct, and insofar as the Eastern Orthodox Churches of which I have been a member, the OCA and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox with which I have close ties as a result of my ecumenical work, the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church, have not persecuted anyone, but have been victims of Roman Catholic persecution in the case of the Syriac Orthodox in India and the Antiochians during the Crusades, and in the case of the OCA’s Alaskan Archdiocese of Sitka, one of the major Orthodox saints of North America is Saint Peter the Aleut, a 15 year old boy, martyred by the Franciscans in California after his party of twenty Aleutian fishermen, who had routinely sailed to California for centuries, were arrested due to their Orthodox faith, and St. Peter, out of all of them, who was not the leader but a mere 15 year old boy, was martyred for refusing to recant the Orthodox faith and convert to the Roman faith, and thus who could be regarded as a victim of violence connected to the Spanish Inquisition insofar as the Franciscans along with the Dominicans were involved in conducting the Inquisition, and the territory of Alta California, which corresponds to southern and central California in the US, was at the time under Spanish Colonial rule. Furthermore, our churches in the Middle East are under active persecution right now, with the abduction of the Syriac and Antiochian Metropolitans of Aleppo in 2013 (the incident that prompted me to join the Orthodox Church after my friend who was one of the last conservative priests in the ultra-liberal Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles (Anglican) retired, and since that time the persecution of Orthodox Christians in Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq has been incessant, most recently with the martyrdom of 90 men, women and children at an Antiochian Orthodox Church in Damascus that was attacked by an Islamist with automatic weapons, who on running out of ammo, threw a grenade at the Iconostasis, kyrie eleison.

My interest in this thread rather is twofold: insofar as some posts by @Amo2 have had an anti-Orthodox effect by implying that Orthodox ecumenical councils such as the Council of Nicaea were Roman Catholic conspiracies aimed at suppressing worship on Sunday, despite the fact that of the 318 bishops at Nicaea, only two were Roman Catholics, and the rest were Orthodox Christians of Greek and Syrian ethnicity, and the Pope of Rome was not involved with the council, and the council enacted two canons, 6 and 7, which have the effect of precluding Papal Supremacy by declaring in canon 6 that the churches of Antioch and Alexandria should have the same privileges as that of Rome, and in canon 7 that the church of Jerusalem, newly reinstated after the city, which was largely ruined and renamed Aeolia Capitolina in 130 AD following the failed revolt led by the false messiah Bar Kochba, was restored by Emperor Constainte’s mother St. Helena, should also have those privileges.

Later councils also clarified that the church of Cyprus had always had those privileges, and granted them officially to the Church in Constantinople. Given the severe persecution of Orthodox and Roman Catholic persecutions by Emperor Constantine’s son Constantius, who was persuaded to apostasize and join the Arian religion, which denied the Incarnation and the Trinity, and his successors up through Emperor Valens who were all Arians, except for Emperor Julian, who was a Neo-Platonist, and thus the persecution of the Nicene Christians by the Roman Empire, whether Roman Catholic or Greek, Coptic and Syrian Orthodox continued until 386 AD, when a vigil held by the great bishop St. Ambrose of Milan persuaded Emperor Theodosius, who was a Christian, not to yield to demands by Arians that a church in Milan be handed over to them (which Theodosius had intended to do fearing a riot).

Additionally insofar as the accusations made against Roman Catholics, for example, the claim they murdered 125 million people, are so egregious as to potentially lead to renewed persecution of Catholics, particularly by Muslims, who might be fearful of Catholics because Muslims worship on Friday, and the false accusation of a Roman Catholic conspiracy to prohibit worship on days other than Sunday (which is so untrue when one considers that in recent years, nearly all Roman Catholic parishes have begun scheduling Saturday afternoon worship services and attendance at these satisfies the obligation for Roman Catholics to attend weekly worship, and combined with existing masses on Saturday mornings, given the extremely large global population of Catholics and the fact that all Catholic priests are required to celebrate the Mass daily, and also the Divine Office (Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer etc), that the majority of Saturday worship services worldwide are held in Catholic churches. The Orthodox (specifically a combined total of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox) and Anglicans probably come in second and third place due to the normal practice of Saturday vespers, and also the Saturday morning divine liturgies which are normal in the Coptic, Ethiopian and Eritrean churches.

My concern is these allegations of violence and of a conspiracy to suppress worship on days other than Sunday could lead to persecution or individual misconduct towards the Roman Catholic Church, whose clergy in places such as Northern Ireland, Scotland and parts of England routinely experience violence both from Muslims and other persons not of Roman Catholic ethnicity, and whose churches in the US, Canada and other countries frequently fall victim to arson attacks, and whose laity in the Middle East, particularly the Melkite Catholics, Maronite Catholics and Syriac Catholics in Syria, the Coptic Catholics in Egypt, and the Chaldean Catholics in Iraq, have experienced violent persecution alongside their Orthodox and Anglican brethren.

In addition, in Pakistan, where Christians are severely persecuted, nearly all of the violence has been encountered by Anglicans, Catholics and other Protestants, for the Orthodox do not have a significant presence in that country (and have not since the genocide of Tamerlane in the 12th century AD, which killed all Aramaic-speaking Christians of the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East outside of Mesopotamia and the Malabar Coast of India, including all of those living on the island of Socotra in Yemen, and the very large number living in Central Asia, China, Mongolia and Tibet. Today, only ruins exist where there were once beautiful churches in these lands.

Because of this, and because we are Christians, we have a duty to seek historical truth, even if it disagrees with our assumptions. At present, the facts of history as agreed upon by all academic sources do not support the narrative about the Spanish Inquisition and the Roman Catholic Church presented in this thread. Additionally, claiming the Catholics murdered a population equal in size to that of Western Europe is a historical impossibility.
 
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I just said: that you are trying to justify torture and murder.

So who is really in league with the Devil? The one who tries to justify this past crimes or the one who notices the crimes?
you are still just throwing around accusations without substance

you first said I asked for references to verify facts without providing any myself. I asked you to show me the post to which you were referring, so that I may correct it. You did not provide an answer

you then make a false charge that I am trying to justify torture and murder. That is your opinion, not backed up by fact
you still have not backed up your accusations

I said that you may exalt yourself over me and the devil will give you many accusations to use, not because I believe you in league with the devil, but Satan is that accuser of the brethren, and my many sins leave little room for defense. I committed them willingly and am deserving of contempt

I said you can do that, but how does that serve God's purpose? God's word tells us to love our enemies and do good to them that persecute us, not accuse them falsely. Do you wish to continue your line of self justification, or join us and search for truth? Beating me is like beating a dead horse. It serves no purpose in the kingdom of God or this thread
 
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Daniel Carlton

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you are still just throwing around accusations without substance

you first said I asked for references to verify facts without providing any myself. I asked you to show me the post to which you were referring, so that I may correct it. You did not provide an answer

you then make a false charge that I am trying to justify torture and murder. That is your opinion, not backed up by fact
you still have not backed up your accusations

I said that you may exalt yourself over me and the devil will give you many accusations to use, not because I believe you in league with the devil, but Satan is that accuser of the brethren, and my many sins leave little room for defense. I committed them willingly and am deserving of contempt

I said you can do that, but how does that serve God's purpose? God's word tells us to love our enemies and do good to them that persecute us, not accuse them falsely. Do you wish to continue your line of self justification, or join us and search for truth? Beating me is like beating a dead horse. It serves no purpose in the kingdom of God or this thread

Yes, it was the first post of this thread. How can you not understand this when I was so clear and everyone else seemed to understand?

This is pointless and why I do not usually bother to engage with Roman Catholics. Total waste of time.
 
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Yes, it was the first post of this thread. How can you not understand this when I was so clear and everyone else seemed to understand?

This is pointless and why I do not usually bother to engage with Roman Catholics. Total waste of time.
If it were pointless, you would not have posted. Why did it take so long to say something simple?
May God have mercy on you
 
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childeye 2

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All we have is our ability to say yes or to say no, that is free will. We each are at different points in our life. We can cry out for help or continue on as we are. God has given us plenty of examples for us to consider.
The closest analogy that I can see is that sin is like a drug. We start small and use our will to say yes to sin, and the deeper we go, the harder it is to say no and break free. Studies have shown that the brains of addicts are so altered as to have almost no impulse control

The Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The addict and the non addict do not have the same strength of will, but they do have a choice to make. Say I am fine I’ll be alright and continue on, or see that they are on the path of death and cry out for help.

The addict knows what he does is wrong. Sometimes instead of inducing fear enough to call for help, they turn it into a joke. As the song goes, “I messed up my entire life because I got high, I lost my kids and wife because I got high, now I’m sleeping on the sidewalk and I know why. Why man? Because I got high, because I got high, because I got high.” Some people think that song is funny and it would be if it were not true.
The other analogy is that the drunk person thinks he can dance. Satan wants us comfortable with sin. Look, you are not evil, you are doing just fine, go with it. He thinks he is dancing, but everyone else can see he is drunk.
We have the choice to keep dancing or stop and sober up.


Studies have shown that the part of the brain that governs impulse control can be restored by self denial. The choice is there. Continue drugs or start the path of recovery. The words of Jesus ring clear. If anyone come after me, let him deny his very self and begin to follow in my footsteps.
The more we practice self denial, the stronger we become spiritually

The drunk man is under the deception of riches either monetarily or socially. He had lots of money to help him think he is ok, or he has lots of friends to tell him he is ok. The enticement of riches makes it hard to him to see his need. Jesus says that it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Why? Because the rich man does not think he needs it
Like those in the Church of Laodicea, he says I am rich, well fed and have need of nothing, but God says he is miserable, blind, poor, and naked.
He has a choice. Continue to dance drunk, even though Jesus says drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven, or repent and live soberly
We can listen to people that tell us we don’t have to do penance and keep dancing drunk thinking we will get a reward in heaven, or we can believe God and become poor in spirit. My behavior is deplorable, I need to stop dancing drunk and take the path of self denial that Jesus has laid before me.

Do we confess our sins or do we deny our need for repentance? The once saved always saved crowd tends to make people that continue to want to dance drunk. The sober take the path of self denial. The drunk accuse us of working our way to heaven, but we know it is us giving our will to Jesus and allowing Him to strengthen us on the way, as He says my yoke is easy and my burden light

Some addicts recover, some do not. It depends on the path we choose to take. Jesus says narrow is the way straight is the gate. Strive to enter by the straight gate
Thank you for the reply. I pray that this post may be received as an insight unto you, as in obedience to God's will that I love others as myself (intended as a gentle instruction). Please keep in mind that my comments about the "Will" are strictly in the moral/immoral context.

Jesus, The Word made flesh, said ---> And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. <--- These words clearly indicate that people who don't have the Truth he is alluding to need to be set "Free" by the truth. <--- This is a positive connotation of the term "Free" that we need to agree upon to receive the Word of God lest we misconstrue or mischaracterize ignorance and/or being deceived as a freewill. To be clear, I'm saying that we need to acknowledge that Jesus is conveying that the people who he is talking to are NOT FREE, so that we can acknowledge that there are wills that are FREE and there are wills that are NOT FREE without equivocation.

I study semantics particular to psycholinguistics. It's how I discern between spiritual powers of Light and darkness. <---No equivocation. The term "Semantics" denotes the sentiments behind the words people use, and the term "psycholinguistics" pertains to the differing nuances in the meanings that individual words can carry in our thoughts and subsequently their positive/negative connotations and whether or not they are objective or subjective applications.

Here I would like to reiterate my claim that those who participated in the inquisition were being led by spirits of darkness which brings into question the validity of authority based on apostolic succession 1 Corinthians 1:11-13 . If by definition the powers of darkness hold people captive through lies sown in ignorance, then it makes perfect sense that the spirit of the devil, described as the Father of lies who deceives the whole world, would prevent people from seeing and therefore agreeing upon what is actually true. Wherefore Jesus is conveying that knowledge and ignorance plays a part in the "Will" when we reason and subsequently can create passions based on false imaginings thought to hold promise of good things, but in the end they do not. Hence the will is affected by deception and by revelation of the truth.

Using objective terms. The term "Will" conveys "volition" and/or "desire". One could go deeper and point out that "volition" infers the mind, and "desire" infers the heart. Both are applicable to the "Will" including the carnal will. If we cannot agree on these objective meanings, then we will not be able to communicate nor see and agree upon what the Word of God is expressing in Spirit/sentiment.

Jesus (The Word come in the flesh) said --->32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

volition​

noun

vo·li·tion vō-ˈli-shən
və-

Synonyms of volition
1
: the power of choosing or determining : will

2
: an act of making a choice or decision
also : a choice or decision made

desire
2 of 2

noun

1
: conscious impulse (see impulse entry 1 sense 1) toward something that promises enjoyment or satisfaction in its attainment
ridding oneself of all desires

how humans process desire


2
a
: longing, craving
teenagers' desire for independence

… the inexpensive homebuilt craft that satisfy many people's desire to fly—James Fallows

b
: sexual urge or appetite

3
: something longed or hoped for : something desired
You are my heart's desire.

Above are the Merriam Webster dictionary definitions for the two terms I am claiming to be objectively applicable to the "Will" in scripture. I intend to show that these definitions show that the meaning of 'freewill' you are using is subjective and qualifies as a misunderstanding of the term Freewill. Note: You claim that "Our" freewill is "Our" ability to say yes or to say no. The expressed sentiment using "OUR" clearly indicates that you are under the belief that the meaning of 'freewill' that you are using is an objective meaning.

But your meaning is not objective, it is subjective. If I may point out, your description of what FREE will means is NOT qualified because the term/sentiment "FREE" fails to describe what the "WILL" is FREE from and therefore is for all intents and purposes depicting an undecided soul in a state of equivocation ---> See doublemindedness, also understand --->"You can't serve two masters".

Furthermore, please note: In the #1 dictionary definition for 'volition', that the term "Will" standing alone without the adjective 'free' already conveys the ability to say yes or no. The term "FREE" in the meaning of "freewill" as being able to choose is therefore objectively redundant. Ultimately, it is describing the circumstance of a "Will" trying to discern between what is right and wrong. So, the articulation of a soul choosing between right and wrong misrepresents the "situation" as an ability of the Will.

False terms in our psycholinguistics affect our reasoning. When we reason upon a false meaning of a term, our reasoning will subsequently end in contradictions. And a contradiction was made manifest in these words from your post ---> "The drunk man is under the deception of riches either monetarily or socially". The sentiment "under the deception" infers ---> being under the dominion of a lie, which is antithetical to any reasonable presentation of a Free Will, and this is why Jesus stated "the Truth shall make you free".

Consider these two dichotomies ---> True/False and Reasonable/unreasonable. Notice that we could both speak this out loud with complete conviction ---> It would be unreasonable to state, "My will is free when in fact I am deceived", but it would be completely reasonable to state, "My will was made free by the truth". The Truth is that without Love (God's Spirit), there is no goodness in mankind.

antithetical​

adjective

an·ti·thet·i·cal ˌan-tə-ˈthe-ti-kəl

variants or less commonly antithetic
ˌan-tə-ˈthe-tik
Synonyms of antithetical
1
: being in direct and unequivocal opposition : directly opposite or opposed
… some see the idea of a museum for rock & roll as antithetical to the music's rebellious ethic …—Al Weisel
 
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THE PERSONAL ATTACKS AND THE FACT THAT THIS THREAD IS SO FAR OFF-TOPIC MAKES IT UNSALVAGABLE
 
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