That Which is Born of the Spirit

NewLifeInChristJesus · Saturday at 10:55 AM

CoreyD said:
@NewLifeInChristJesus, I'll also like to point out a mistaken view that many have.
They claim that if a person who is born again sins, that person was never born again.

That's not my point at all. It's not even a common view. Almost everyone, excluding the sinless perfection crowd, believes people sin after salvation. My point is that sin comes from the flesh, not the spirit of a man. If this were not so, then it could not be said that the new man is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24).

CoreyD said:
However, this idea suggests that God did not put his spirit on Saul 1 Samuel 10:9-12, just because Saul went from being humble, to being haughty.
It also suggests that God does not take away his spirit, after giving it. 1 Samuel 16:14-16

I guess I would claim something on the order of, "that was then, this is now". At no time before Pentecost did the Spirit of God take up permanent residence inside a person's heart. They spoke of it, and wondered what it might mean, but they did not experience what we experience - "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27).

...the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col 1:26–27)

CoreyD said:
Both of these suggestions are unscriptural, and so too is the idea that a born again person cannot reject God's spirit, after having it.

The spirit is not some kind of sin protector that takes away a person's mind, and free will choices.

Receiving the Spirit of God into our hearts makes a new creature (a spiritual one) that did not exist before. Speaking of this new creature, John said, "His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 Jn 3:9). "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" (2 Co 4:7). Our free will choices give us freedom to not carry out the lusts of the earthen vessels and we are successful in doing this is we use our enlightened minds to comprehend the Spirit's desires and choose to walk in them (Ga 5:16-18).

CoreyD said:
The spirit gives persons guidance, producing fruit John 16:13; Galatians 5:22, 23, but one can go against the spirit's leading, and be against God...

This is true. We reap what we sow. If we walk in the flesh, we will reap the fruits of the flesh... But Galatians 5 does not say that walking in the flesh, which I dare say we all do often, results in God throwing us in hell.

CoreyD said:
even committing the unforgivable sin. Matthew 12:31, 32; Acts 7:51; Acts 26:14; Ephesians 4:30

I cannot see why a person who is lying fully prostrate before God because of the sins and sinfulness of the flesh (and receiving His mercy) would want to revert to being confident that he can secure his own salvation through sin avoidance. That does not make any sense to me. What makes far more sense to me is to continue to have no confidence in the flesh (Phil 3:3), to continue to have full confidence in Christ (Heb 3:6, 14), and to rejoice over the fact that we have new life in Christ Jesus that has delivered us from the law so that we may serve Him in the newness of that life (Ro 7:4–6).

Dan Perez · Saturday at 1:36 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
BDAG says "οὐ" it is an "objective negative adverb" denying the reality of an alleged fact, in the NT used with inicatives (which we have here), and before vowels with rough breathing marks (which we have here) takes the form "οὐχ":

οὐ (Hom.+; s. Schwyzer II 591–94) objective (as opp. to subjective μή) negative adv., denying the reality of an alleged fact; in the NT used w. the ind. (μή serves as the neg. for the other moods, including inf. and ptc.—w. certain exceptions, which will be discussed below. S. B-D-F §426; Rob. 1168f; Mlt-Turner 281f). Before vowels w. the smooth breathing it takes the form οὐκ; before those w. the rough breathing it is οὐχ;

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 733). University of Chicago Press.

Other than the classification, we agree on the idea that the clear language of 1 John 5:18 is that sin does not come from out of one born of God. I make this fact a current reality, attributing it to the new man as an integral part of His nature. But you make it a future reality for the whole man (flesh + spirit) only in the tribulation. So it appears you don't believe that the new man of Ephesians 4:24 is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness". Maybe you could clarify.

And you can. google and see what DICKSON. COLLEGE explains it and I use ONLY the KJV and use BLUE LETTER BIBLE

and it does show OUX. and OU. is. the root and. OU which is. Transliteration.

dan p

CoreyD · Saturday at 1:53 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Well, my point was that there are many verses that say explicitly that the second life, the spiritual one obtained from Jesus, lasts forever. One is John 3:16. It says a person who gets "everlasting life" will never perish. Another one is John 10:28. It says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish". Both these verses (and there are others) speak directly to the spirtual life that Jesus gives a person, are qualified with adjectives that indicate they are lives without end, and are further qualified by other statements that eliminate the possibility of "perishing".

Are these two verses not a promise of a reward?
Thus, they refer to a future reward of everlasting life.
Is this not a good example of "verses that if read a certain way say" what one thinks, when the verse is not saying that?

Can you for example quote John 3:16 from your translation.
Doe it not read... so that everyone who believes in him will/shall/might not perish but have eternal life?
That's not saying they have everlasting life, but rather, they will have everlasting life.

another example... John 10:28.
When we read the surrounding verses... 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.’

Jesus is speaking to his Jewish opponents - John, 10:31-34, and he tells them that he has sheep, and they follow him, and he gives them everlasting life, so that they shall/will/might never perish, and no one can snatch them out of his hand.
Is this saying they presently have everlasting life?
No, because

those following Jesus at that point, are few, and other sheep have not yet started following him.
of those following, only eleven stuck with him. All the others abandoned him.
Jesus even referred to Judas as one of those lost. He said, "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12

If Jesus was saying he gave them everlasting life, then none of the above could be true, could it?
Jesus is not saying he gave them, but he gives them, as in that will be their reward.
Another example of of "verses that if read a certain way say" what one thinks.

One more example... 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Is this scripture saying that one does not sin, once born of God?
That would contradict every scripture in the Bible, that says there is only one man that was sinless, but all other men sin, and are sinners. Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; 1 Peter 2:22

The scripture does not contradict other scriptures, but is saying that these ones do not practice sin,.
On the Greek word poieó, rendered commit, in the verse quoted above, one Lexicon says, Whether rendered “make,” “do,” “produce,” “practice,” or “cause,” the verb always stresses purposeful action.
We all sin, without even knowing, either in thought, word, and deed... no matter how small. 1 Kings 8:46; Galatians 6:1
It is impossible for a sinful person to not sin. 1 John 1:8

The Bible uses sin, in three different contexts.

Sin that is inherited - the noun.
Sin as a descriptive act - the adjective.
Sin as a practice - the verb.

The latter is what is referred to in 1 John 3:9 - doing, committing - It refers to the practice of sin, rather than being a sinner, and born in sin... thus imperfect, and missing the mark.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
On your request to explain the correct rendering of the verses you referenced, I will take the easiest one (for expediency's sake).

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb 10:35–39)

Whatever these verses are saying (and I can explain that also but for brevity will pass for now), verse 39 makes it clear that "we", that is born again people who have rested all their weight on Christ, are not the ones who "draw back to perdition". We are the ones who's trust in Christ has resulted in Him saving our souls from hell.

I'm not sure how that says otherwise.
So, let me make it easier.
Do individuals in the body of Christ draw back, and are there examples in the Bible of some who have drawn back?
Per chance you do not know... please read the previous verse to 2 Peter 2:20-22, so as to see an answer to the question. Also, please consider Hebrews 5:11-6:8.

Another question along the same lines involves Jesus reproof to the seven churches, where he repeatedly said, "if you do not repent, I will..."... the result being the opposite of everlasting life. Revelation 2:10
Clearly, the scriptures show that those who tasted the gift of the holy spirit, do not automatically have everlasting life.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.
Hebrews 6:4, 5

When we use the word "we", we should remember that Paul said "we" in reference to the faithful ones who stuck to Christ, but had to continue doing so, in order to gain the reward.

18 ~~For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,~~ ~~many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.~~ For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Philippians 3:18-21

We do not know anything about our final outcome. We have to run the race to the finish... with endurance. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-8; Hebrews 12:1-17
If we give out, the reward will not be everlasting life. Hebrews 10:37

CoreyD · Saturday at 2:04 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
That's not my point at all. It's not even a common view. Almost everyone, excluding the sinless perfection crowd, believes people sin after salvation. My point is that sin comes from the flesh, not the spirit of a man. If this were not so, then it could not be said that the new man is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24).

I did not think you made the point, but since it's often mentioned by others, I wanted to make that point.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
I guess I would claim something on the order of, "that was then, this is now". At no time before Pentecost did the Spirit of God take up permanent residence inside a person's heart. They spoke of it, and wondered what it might mean, but they did not experience what we experience - "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27).

...the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col 1:26–27)

Receiving the Spirit of God into our hearts makes a new creature (a spiritual one) that did not exist before. Speaking of this new creature, John said, "His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 Jn 3:9). "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" (2 Co 4:7). Our free will choices give us freedom to not carry out the lusts of the earthen vessels and we are successful in doing this is we use our enlightened minds to comprehend the Spirit's desires and choose to walk in them (Ga 5:16-18).

I won't quarrel with that.
This is what scripture says.
However, are you saying that God does not give and take his spirit, in the same way?

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
This is true. We reap what we sow. If we walk in the flesh, we will reap the fruits of the flesh... But Galatians 5 does not say that walking in the flesh, which I dare say we all do often, results in God throwing us in hell.

I cannot see why a person who is lying fully prostrate before God because of the sins and sinfulness of the flesh (and receiving His mercy) would want to revert to being confident that he can secure his own salvation through sin avoidance. That does not make any sense to me. What makes far more sense to me is to continue to have no confidence in the flesh (Phil 3:3), to continue to have full confidence in Christ (Heb 3:6, 14), and to rejoice over the fact that we have new life in Christ Jesus that has delivered us from the law so that we may serve Him in the newness of that life (Ro 7:4–6).

I can understand why you don't think it makes sense, but it does, doesn't it? When you consider that the Devil that rebelled against God, along with a third of the heavenly host, were in God's very presence, bathed in his glory, it makes sense, does it not?
Also, the scriptures pointed out that humans, who are far less intelligent than angels, and sinful.... the angels are not, did the same thing, as you would see from my previous post.... if you read those scriptures.

Hoping2 · Saturday at 2:20 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Yes, it helps. No other sinless perfection advocate has ever admitted to me strait out that they are sinleesly perfect nor has anyone taken the time to answer direct questions about it. So I appreciate that.

But I wonder if two things you mentioned are common sinless perfection beliefs or are they just localized views...

Speaking of sinners who claim to be Christians, you said, "They have yet to realize the 'cost' of a true turn from sin and unto God" and "some join the church only to find out they don't really want to commit ALL of their life to the effort." This sounds like salvation is seen as a reward for good behavior instead of a reward for contrition and humility before God.

Won't true contrition for sin produce a life without sin ?
Won't humility to God produce obedience to God ?
The answer is "Yes" to both questions.
Salvation IS the reward for our love for God and neighbor.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
2. Speaking of truly saved Christians,

Stop right there.
My comments are about converted people.
That conversion can change, as actual salvation won't be assigned until the day of judgement/day of judgement.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
...you said, "The new life is constantly under assault", "Temptations can be resisted after rebirth from God's seed" and "we can only bring forth the 'fruit' of our Progenitor". There seems to be an inconsistency here in that God can't be tempted by evil and you say the progeny only reflect the attributes of their Father yet you say directly that the new life is constantly under attack by evil.

I see no inconsistency here.
God cannot be tempted, but we can.
We are not God, just His children.
Jesus was tempted !
"Only reflecting the attributes of Father" only applies to the fruit brought forth, as 1 John 3:9 makes clear.
Attributes and characteristics are two different things.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Furthermore, James' instruction on temptation makes it clear that a person is tempted when "he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed" (Jas 1:14). This certainly is not true of God, and presumably not His offspring.

As His offspring have crucified their past lusts, with the affections and flesh, (Gal 5:24); temptations/enticements have no power.
So you are correct.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Taken together, these two things make sinless perfection seem to be nothing more than another form of legalistism.

What is the opposite of "legal" ?
Illegal !
Is that what you want to be ? Illegal ?
BTW, the only real legalists are those who want us to go back under the Mosaic Law.
Complete with circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, etc.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Legalistic people work hard for their salvation, are deceived about their own faults, and condemn other people.

Folks can claim they are converted all their lives, but salvation will only be granted at our resurrection; either to eternal life or eternal damnation.
Everyday is a battle to remain on the narrow path, and there are many adversaries.
Heed the Lord's, and the apostle's exhortations and admonissions, and live forever.
"Drop your guard", and experience the lake of fire.
Our final judgement will be on how we lived: not on some self-repeated sayings.

Hoping2 · Saturday at 2:39 PM

CoreyD said:
@NewLifeInChristJesus, I'll also like to point out a mistaken view that many have.
They claim that if a person who is born again sins, that person was never born again.

You re implying that God's seed can bring forth Adam's fruit.
I cannot agree with that.

CoreyD said:
However, this idea suggests that God did not put his spirit on Saul 1 Samuel 10:9-12, just because Saul went from being humble, to being haughty.
It also suggests that God does not take away his spirit, after giving it. 1 Samuel 16:14-16
Both of these suggestions are unscriptural, and so too is the idea that a born again person cannot reject God's spirit, after having it.

God's gift of the Holy Spirit in the OT was very different from the gift we receive in the NT, for a real repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
In the OT, the gift wasn't permanent.
God could, and did, take the Spirit away from Saul.
In the NT, the Spirit won't be in the falsely repentant.
The giving of the gift now, hinges on obedience to the requirements...repentance from sin and baptism in the Lord's name for the remission of past sins.
Those gifts to man result in rebirth from God's seed.
His seed cannot bring forth corrupt fruit.

CoreyD said:
The spirit is not some kind of sin protector that takes away a person's mind, and free will choices.
The spirit gives persons guidance, producing fruit John 16:13; Galatians 5:22, 23, but one can go against the spirit's leading, and be against God... even committing the unforgivable sin. Matthew 12:31, 32; Acts 7:51; Acts 26:14; Ephesians 4:30

Your failure to capitalize the 'S' in Spirit must be some Freudian slip.
The Spirit will keep us true to our "turn from" sin.

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-17T09:18:24-0500

Hoping2 said:
Won't true contrition for sin produce a life without sin ?
Won't humility to God produce obedience to God ?
The answer is "Yes" to both questions.
Salvation IS the reward for our love for God and neighbor.

Stop right there.
My comments are about converted people.
That conversion can change, as actual salvation won't be assigned until the day of judgement/day of judgement.

That's new. I didn't know people who thought they were perfect (Matt 5:48) and holy (1 Pet 1:16) also thought they might not survive judgement.

Hoping2 said:
I see no inconsistency here.
God cannot be tempted, but we can.
We are not God, just His children.
Jesus was tempted !

There is no way the devil's temptations could ever have been successful against Jesus just as it was impossible that death could hold Him (Ac 2:24).

Hoping2 said:
"Only reflecting the attributes of Father" only applies to the fruit brought forth, as 1 John 3:9 makes clear.
Attributes and characteristics are two different things.

Your argument is circular in that the fruit of the Spirit include "love", "kindness", "goodness", "faithfulness", and "self-control" (Ga 5:22–23) but then you say these may not apply to a person when "he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed" (Jas 1:14).

Hoping2 said:
As His offspring have crucified their past lusts, with the affections and flesh, (Gal 5:24); temptations/enticements have no power.
So you are correct.

What is the opposite of "legal" ?
Illegal !
Is that what you want to be ? Illegal ?
BTW, the only real legalists are those who want us to go back under the Mosaic Law.
Complete with circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, etc.

No, thinking and preaching that what began in the Spirit is perfected by the flesh is legalism (Ga 3:3).

Hoping2 said:
Folks can claim they are converted all their lives, but salvation will only be granted at our resurrection; either to eternal life or eternal damnation.

It's not possible to undo what has already been declared. Those of us who have rested from our works and have placed all our hope in Christ (and have been verified to have done so by God who sees the thoughts and intents of the heart per Hebrews 4:11-13) have be saved (Eph 2:5, 8).

Hoping2 said:
Everyday is a battle to remain on the narrow path, and there are many adversaries.
Heed the Lord's, and the apostle's exhortations and admonissions, and live forever.
"Drop your guard", and experience the lake of fire.
Our final judgement will be on how we lived: not on some self-repeated sayings.

Stepping back, I now must admit I am more confused than ever before about the doctrine of Sinless Perfection. Until now, I thought that it took 1 John 3:9 literally when it said the one born of God can not sin because His seed remains in him. Now, I see that succumbing to temptation is not impossible for the one born of God in the eyes of those who hold the doctrine. Now it appears that the doctrine is nothing more than to say we must avoid all sins to get into heaven. This would be impossible if there were no forgiveness of sins. Where does that play in?

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-17T11:03:50-0500

CoreyD said:
Are these two verses not a promise of a reward?
Thus, they refer to a future reward of everlasting life.
Is this not a good example of "verses that if read a certain way say" what one thinks, when the verse is not saying that?

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life (1 Jn 5:10–13).

It is obvious that God's tesimony to us is true that we currently have the eternal life that exists in Jesus by virtue of the fact that He lives in us.

CoreyD said:
Can you for example quote John 3:16 from your translation.
Doe it not read... so that everyone who believes in him will/shall/might not perish but have eternal life?
That's not saying they have everlasting life, but rather, they will have everlasting life.

From my Beginner's Greek Textbook (Summers): "5. The final subjunctive is the use of the subjunctive clause to express purpose. The main particle used in this construction is ἵνα." That is what we have here.

CoreyD said:
another example... John 10:28.
When we read the surrounding verses... 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.’

Jesus is speaking to his Jewish opponents - John, 10:31-34, and he tells them that he has sheep, and they follow him, and he gives them everlasting life, so that they shall/will/might never perish, and no one can snatch them out of his hand.
Is this saying they presently have everlasting life?
No, because

those following Jesus at that point, are few, and other sheep have not yet started following him.

of those following, only eleven stuck with him. All the others abandoned him.

Jesus even referred to Judas as one of those lost. He said, "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12

If Jesus was saying he gave them everlasting life, then none of the above could be true, could it?
Jesus is not saying he gave them, but he gives them, as in that will be their reward.
Another example of of "verses that if read a certain way say" what one thinks.

I don't agree with you final point, obviously. But I hear what you're saying and I will have to think about it some more.

CoreyD said:
One more example... 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Is this scripture saying that one does not sin, once born of God?
That would contradict every scripture in the Bible, that says there is only one man that was sinless, but all other men sin, and are sinners. Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; 1 Peter 2:22

The scripture does not contradict other scriptures, but is saying that these ones do not practice sin,.
On the Greek word poieó, rendered commit, in the verse quoted above, one Lexicon says, Whether rendered “make,” “do,” “produce,” “practice,” or “cause,” the verb always stresses purposeful action.
We all sin, without even knowing, either in thought, word, and deed... no matter how small. 1 Kings 8:46; Galatians 6:1
It is impossible for a sinful person to not sin. 1 John 1:8

There are two statements in 1 John 3:9 about the one born of God not sinning. The first is "does not sin". The verb means "do" as you said, and the word "sin" is a noun and it is the direct object. "Whoever has been born of God does not sin". The second is "cannot sin". The verb is ἁμαρτάνω, and according to BDAG it means, "to commit a wrong, to sin (in the sense ‘transgress’ against divinity, custom, or law)". "he cannot sin, because he has been born of God".

CoreyD said:
The Bible uses sin, in three different contexts.

Sin that is inherited - the noun.

Sin as a descriptive act - the adjective.

Sin as a practice - the verb.

When we use "sin" as a noun, we can say "Sin is bad". When we use it as an adjective, we can say "Sinful things are bad". And when we use it as a verb, we can say "Sinning is bad". The ideas that when used as a noun sin refers to "Sin that is inherited" and that when used as a verb it refers to "Sin as a practice" would hold up very well.

CoreyD said:
The latter is what is referred to in 1 John 3:9 - doing, committing - It refers to the practice of sin, rather than being a sinner, and born in sin... thus imperfect, and missing the mark.

The practice of sin concept is interesting to me. It is ambiguous at best. What exactly does it mean? Does it mean that a few little sins (disrespect, speeding, white lies) here and there are exempt from the rule? What if there are occasional big sins (lust, anger, theft) thrown in there? Are those exempt from the rule also? Is it the size of the sin, the repeat rate of a particular sin, the amount of time between individual sins, or a combination of these that define the rule? If so, what are those limits? As a concrete example, would the pastor who claimed to have committed no sins over a 3 day period (which if repeated over 50 years would result in 6000 sins over a lifetime) qualify as not "practicing" sin? I would say his sin is a habit.

CoreyD said:
I'm not sure how that says otherwise.

This is the point of the OP. We must distinguish between the fleshly lives we received from Adam and the spiritual lives we received from God. Flesh begets flesh, and the Spirit begets spirit, as Jesus said. John is speaking of the latter, not the former.

Consider this phrase in Hebrews: "to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23). Do you make it escatalogical? If so, why do the passages that describe the replacement of the physical body with a spiritual body (mainly Romans 8 and 2 Corinthians 5, but there are others) speak only of the outward man being replaced and not the inward man?

CoreyD said:
So, let me make it easier.
Do individuals in the body of Christ draw back, and are there examples in the Bible of some who have drawn back?
Per chance you do not know... please read the previous verse to 2 Peter 2:20-22,

they were dogs and pigs all along (2 Pe 2:22).

CoreyD said:
so as to see an answer to the question. Also, please consider Hebrews 5:11-6:8.

Hebrews is about being dilligent to enter His rest and not stopping short of it. And seeing the thoughts and intents of the heart, God is the only one qualified to judge whether a person has actually stopped working for his salvation and has put all his hope in Christ.

CoreyD said:
Another question along the same lines involves Jesus reproof to the seven churches, where he repeatedly said, "if you do not repent, I will..."... the result being the opposite of everlasting life. Revelation 2:10

Well, I would say that the current-day state of much of the church causes me to be concerned that He might take the mantle away from us as He did with ancient Israel ("Otherwise you also will be cut off" (Ro 11:22)).

CoreyD said:
Clearly, the scriptures show that those who tasted the gift of the holy spirit, do not automatically have everlasting life.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.

Hebrews 6:4, 5

See comment above about the message of Hebrews.

CoreyD said:
When we use the word "we", we should remember that Paul said "we" in reference to the faithful ones who stuck to Christ, but had to continue doing so, in order to gain the reward.

18 ~~For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,~~ ~~many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.~~ For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Philippians 3:18-21

We do not know anything about our final outcome.

We do know some things. Others are unknown.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (1 Jn 3:2)

CoreyD said:
We have to run the race to the finish... with endurance. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-8; Hebrews 12:1-17
If we give out, the reward will not be everlasting life. Hebrews 10:37

The endurance that I have, and which is required, is that I will never give up on the idea that it is only because of the sacrifice of Christ for my sins that I am right with God. I will never trade than in for another point of view.

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-17T11:16:55-0500

CoreyD said:
I did not think you made the point, but since it's often mentioned by others, I wanted to make that point.

I won't quarrel with that.
This is what scripture says.
However, are you saying that God does not give and take his spirit, in the same way?

Spiritual birth creates a spiritual creature that is "joined to the Lord" and "one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17). We are in Him and He is in us. To see Him leaving would be to see a dissolution of the new creature. Certainly that would be permanently ruinous. But no, I don't see that as ever happening.

CoreyD said:
I can understand why you don't think it makes sense, but it does, doesn't it? When you consider that the Devil that rebelled against God, along with a third of the heavenly host, were in God's very presence, bathed in his glory, it makes sense, does it not?
Also, the scriptures pointed out that humans, who are far less intelligent than angels, and sinful.... the angels are not, did the same thing, as you would see from my previous post.... if you read those scriptures.

You are right that we have no reason to have confidence in the flesh. But that was my point. I guess we're in agreement on this one?

CoreyD · 2025-08-17T13:07:36-0500

@NewLifeInChristJesus I read your posts, but I am not clear on your answers to my question, so could you answer this question so that I can be clear.
Does one in Christ need to endure to the end in right works, in order to gain everlasting life, according to scripture?

Hoping2 · 2025-08-17T14:32:14-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
That's new. I didn't know people who thought they were perfect (Matt 5:48) and holy (1 Pet 1:16) also thought they might not survive judgement.

Where I stand, and what I believe today may change tomorrow, or in ten years.
It is written..."Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied." (Acts 9:31)
Those that fear God, don't offend Him.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
There is no way the devil's temptations could ever have been successful against Jesus just as it was impossible that death could hold Him (Ac 2:24).

That is right, but the devil kept trying...didn't he ?
Temptations won't cease, until the vessel ends.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Your argument is circular in that the fruit of the Spirit include "love", "kindness", "goodness", "faithfulness", and "self-control" (Ga 5:22–23) but then you say these may not apply to a person when "he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed" (Jas 1:14).

They will only 'not apply' if we/they fall to that temptation.
"Real" Christians have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Temptations give us the opportunity to prove we are truly converted.
It is the posers that fall. And their "act" may have lasted for many years !

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
No, thinking and preaching that what began in the Spirit is perfected by the flesh is legalism (Ga 3:3).

Besides your 'legalism' being misapplied, remaining pure is the hall-mark of REAL Christians.
If you want to label it, call it "maintaining the faith".
Man is made no further perfect than at his initial baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
We do, however, continue to grow in grace and knowledge; but will never be "more" sanctified or "more" justified, by good deeds.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
It's not possible to undo what has already been declared. Those of us who have rested from our works and have placed all our hope in Christ (and have been verified to have done so by God who sees the thoughts and intents of the heart per Hebrews 4:11-13) have be(en) saved (Eph 2:5, 8).

What sin could ever be committed by the truthfully faithful ?
The 'declaration' is dependent on remaining faithful.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Stepping back, I now must admit I am more confused than ever before about the doctrine of Sinless Perfection. Until now, I thought that it took 1 John 3:9 literally when it said the one born of God can not sin because His seed remains in him.

That is a true verse, and from God.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Now, I see that succumbing to temptation is not impossible for the one born of God in the eyes of those who hold the doctrine.

It is not possible for those actually reborn of God's seed to bring forth the fruit of another progenitor.
(Remember the "grapes of thorns-figs of thistles" verses ?)
It is the posers that make the verse seem false.
Many have infiltrated the church, just to make it look just like the "world".
But we are not of this world, and will remain faithful.
Those that fall just show they were never "of us".

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Now it appears that the doctrine is nothing more than to say we must avoid all sins to get into heaven.

Avoiding sin is just the natural inclination of God's children. Our nature.
It is our nature, but the attempts by the devil to make us recant our faith, don't stop.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
This would be impossible if there were no forgiveness of sins. Where does that play in?

In the scenario of forgiving the SELF-proclaimed Christians; their real Christianity starts AFTER a REAL repentance from sin.
If they fall again, they still need a REAL repentance to call themselves "Christ's".

It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
A false repentance will not garner the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Posers enter into "this" life armed with a knife, for a gun-fight.

Aaron112 · 2025-08-17T19:47:18-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

Seek out where would you find anyone truthful, faithful, where truth is truthfully discussed/ shared/ testimonies included ?

Aaron112 · 2025-08-17T19:49:16-0500

CoreyD said:
Does one in Christ need to endure to the end in right works, in order to gain everlasting life, according to scripture?

Certainly you have some time in the past read what Jesus Says in His Word (The Bible) ? Yes?
So very simply what is written about enduring to the end ?

CoreyD · 2025-08-17T21:29:09-0500

Aaron112 said:
Certainly you have some time in the past read what Jesus Says in His Word (The Bible) ? Yes?

Yes, of course. We all have.

Aaron112 said:
So very simply what is written about enduring to the end ?

Well, I could supply that answer with a couple of verses... and I will, if @NewLifeInChristJesus answers the question with an answer other than what is written.
However, Jesus knew the scriptures well, yet he put the question to them, anyway. Why?
So that they answer their own argument from scripture.

You can supply the answer as well, because you know it, don't you.
At the mouth of two or three witnesses a matter is established.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-17T22:03:40-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

Because some don't realize what they had in Adam has "passed away". (2 Cor 5:17)
New creatures have no physical life in Adam.
Our vessels are the temple of the Holy Spirit, after conversion.

Aaron112 · 2025-08-18T02:30:04-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

Not saying that "these things" as in 'given these things' is truth, or not truth;
the distinction referred to is not something often , nor usually even, seen.
Sticking with Scripture , the realization of what is true in this world of sinful mankind
is not frequent at all, nor is it popular nor sought except by a few.

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-18T09:49:27-0500

Hoping2 said:
Where I stand, and what I believe today may change tomorrow, or in ten years.
It is written..."Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied." (Acts 9:31)
Those that fear God, don't offend Him.

That is right, but the devil kept trying...didn't he ?
Temptations won't cease, until the vessel ends.

They will only 'not apply' if we/they fall to that temptation.
"Real" Christians have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Temptations give us the opportunity to prove we are truly converted.
It is the posers that fall. And their "act" may have lasted for many years !

Besides your 'legalism' being misapplied, remaining pure is the hall-mark of REAL Christians.
If you want to label it, call it "maintaining the faith".
Man is made no further perfect than at his initial baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
We do, however, continue to grow in grace and knowledge; but will never be "more" sanctified or "more" justified, by good deeds.

What sin could ever be committed by the truthfully faithful ?
The 'declaration' is dependent on remaining faithful.

That is a true verse, and from God.

It is not possible for those actually reborn of God's seed to bring forth the fruit of another progenitor.
(Remember the "grapes of thorns-figs of thistles" verses ?)
It is the posers that make the verse seem false.
Many have infiltrated the church, just to make it look just like the "world".
But we are not of this world, and will remain faithful.
Those that fall just show they were never "of us".

Avoiding sin is just the natural inclination of God's children. Our nature.
It is our nature, but the attempts by the devil to make us recant our faith, don't stop.

In the scenario of forgiving the SELF-proclaimed Christians; their real Christianity starts AFTER a REAL repentance from sin.
If they fall again, they still need a REAL repentance to call themselves "Christ's".

It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
A false repentance will not garner the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Posers enter into "this" life armed with a knife, for a gun-fight.

God can't be tempted by evil (James 1:13), and neither can His offspring (1 John 5:15). That is one way we can tell the difference between the new man and the old man. So, if you and your fellow "sinlessly perfect" friends are being tempted by evil, then you all now have a way to rightly distinguish between the flesh (that is drawn away from God to sin) and the spirit (which isn't). That may be the only thing I can offer to help you.

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