No, Israel is not starving poor Gazan children. Don't buy the fake news lies

JosephZ said:

How do you think Americans would react if the government of another country carved out a portion of the United States and gave the land to foreigners despite American opposition to this plan?

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JosephZ said:

This may come as a surprise, but modern nation-states are a relatively recent concept.

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JosephZ said:

The suicide bombings by Hamas and Islamic Jihad following the signing of the Oslo Accords were in direct response to the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre. It was Israeli settlers that opposed the peace process.

The massacre at the Cave of the Patriarchs – 30 Palestinians killed and more than 120 wounded by automatic gunfire from Baruch Goldstein at the Cave of the Patriarchs on the morning of Purim (and the middle of Ramadan) on February 25, 1994

Provocation to provoke a Palestinian response has always been a cornerstone of the settlers' method of expanding their control. And this time – also according to his wife's testimony – Goldstein's goal was to destroy the Oslo Accords with a massacre that would require revenge. This is what happened in the past: the massacre of the convoy of doctors and nurses to Hadassah on April 13, 1948, in which 77 Jews were murdered, came immediately after the Deir Yassin massacre by the Irgun and Lehi, four days earlier. The settlers internalized and perfected the method.

Hamas and Jihad mobilized for revenge and portrayed Arafat and the PLO as neglecting the defense of their people. After a period of significant calm following the signing of the Oslo Accords, the massacre in the cave sparked a series of revenge attacks unparalleled since the War of Independence. 164 Israelis were murdered in eight bomb attacks, all by Hamas and Jihad, all inside Israel, all from explosive belts and IEDs. The facts did not confuse the settlers who mobilized to dance on the blood and call Rabin a "traitor" for "Rabin gave them guns." After all, the goal - the elimination of Rabin and Oslo - sanctifies lies.

WEST BANK MASSACRE: AT LEAST 40 SLAIN IN WEST BANK AS ISRAELI FIRES INTO MOSQUE; CLINTON MOVES TO RESCUE TALKS -- NEW CLASHES LIKELY.

On the bloodiest day in the occupied territories since Israel captured them in 1967, a Jewish settler killed at least 40 and possibly 50 Palestinians and wounded an estimated 150 others today, spraying them with automatic rifle fire as they knelt together in prayer at a shrine venerated by both Muslims and Jews.

The gunman, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, a 37-year-old resident of Qiryat Arba, opened fire on the Muslim worshipers at dawn in a mosque at the Cave of the Patriarchs in the tinderbox West Bank city of Hebron. The terrorist attack came as the victims were gathered to offer prayers as part of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting.

The Brooklyn-born settler, a follower of the anti-Arab Rabbi Meir Kahane, was apparently beaten to death by the worshipers after they overcame their initial terror.

The massacre touched off Palestinian rioting and clashes with Israeli soldiers that claimed about 10 Arab lives elsewhere in Hebron and other parts of the Israeli-occupied territories.

The massacre of the Muslim worshipers in Hebron sent shock waves through the Middle East and beyond, raising fears for the Israeli-Palestinian peace accord and prompting President Clinton to summon both sides to Washington for nonstop negotiations aimed at keeping the peace effort alive.

The chairman of the P.L.O., Yasir Arafat, described the killings as a "true blow to the peace process."

An armed wing of Hamas, the militant Islamic group, warned of reprisals for the Hebron massacre. In leaflets distributed in Gaza City, it said: "Our response will not take long."

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JosephZ said:

Hamas is only a symptom of decades of injustices against Palestinians. It's the failure to address these injustices that's the root cause of this current conflict.

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JusticePercell said:

Is it God's plan to violate human rights? I believe it is ridiculous to claim that God's plan is to violate human rights. This is where Christians are going astray, to say the least. There is no consideration for human rights, which is to say that humans have human rights, and they should be respected by Christians.

My original question was why do you support Israel? Your second answer is that you believe it is God's plan. That is, you support Israel because of your theology. Here is the problem: your theology conflicts with human rights. I have a different theology: Christians should respect human rights.

One of those human rights is the freedom of religion. That means Christians don't have the right to force their religion on others. That is called treating people the way you want to be treated. Do you agree with treating others the way you want to be treated? Is that in your definition of God's plan?

Do you want someone forcing their religion on you? Of course, the answer is no. Don't lie. The truth is your theology is irrelevant. I don't care about your theology, any more than you care about mine, which is zero. And that is fine, we disagree on theology. People inevitably disagree on theology, and everything else. That is why the right to freedom of religion is a human right. Neither of us has a right to force our theology on others.

So, our disagreement is that you want to force your theology on others, specifically the Palestinians, while I want to respect the Palestinian's, and all other people's, right to self-determination and freedom of religion. Is that right?

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JosephZ said:

Hamas is only a symptom of decades of injustices against Palestinians. It's the failure to address these injustices that's the root cause of this current conflict.

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Hentenza said:

This massacre was perpetrated by one person who belonged to the ultra far right Zionist Kach movement. Hardly representative of the people of Israel.

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ASSASSINATION AFTERMATH : Rabin's Widow Accuses Political Foes of Fostering Hate : Reaction: 'Surely I blame them,' she angrily says of her slain husband's most vocal critics in Parliament.

Appearing angry but composed, Yitzhak Rabin's widow, Leah, bluntly criticized her husband's political opponents Tuesday, claiming that they created and even encouraged the hateful climate that inspired his assassination.

www.latimes.com

Vambram said:

In my opinion, Hamas is just slightly better than savage demons of the devil himself.

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JosephZ said:

I didn't say it was representative of the people of Israel; I said it was Israeli settlers that opposed the peace process. And while that attack was carried out by a single person, there were also mass demonstrations against the peace process and the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin by an Israeli extremist.

With Mr. Peres and Mr. Arafat, Mr. Rabin was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 for the secret negotiations in 1993 that led to the agreement to end Israeli rule over the Palestinians in the occupied territories. But the peace also provoked a loud and passionate opposition. Settlers and right-wing nationalists have held held constant demonstrations and protests, blocked intersections and jeering Mr. Rabin wherever he appeared.


“Surely I blame them,” Leah Rabin said of the Likud members, her husband’s most vocal critics in the Knesset. “If you ever heard their speeches, you would understand what I mean. They were very, very violent in their expressions: ‘We are selling the country down the drain.’ ‘There will be no Israel after this peace agreement.’ I mean, this was wild.”

During a rally in Jerusalem not long ago, she recalled, “they put the figure of Yitzhak, my husband, in the uniform of a Nazi leader, and Mr. Netanyahu was there. He later talked against it, but he was there and didn’t stop it,” she told ABC.

Every Friday for the past year, she noted, her husband would arrive home, tired from a long week of work, only to be shouted at by extremists protesting his peace deal with the Palestine Liberation Organization.

“They were here, yelling ‘Traitor! Killer!’ ”

“Sometimes I think, despite the fact that we are Jewish and the right is Jewish, that we could easier find a common language with Palestinians and Arabs,” she told one interviewer. “Because we [the right and left in Israel] live on two different planets.”

ASSASSINATION AFTERMATH : Rabin's Widow Accuses Political Foes of Fostering Hate : Reaction: 'Surely I blame them,' she angrily says of her slain husband's most vocal critics in Parliament.

Appearing angry but composed, Yitzhak Rabin's widow, Leah, bluntly criticized her husband's political opponents Tuesday, claiming that they created and even encouraged the hateful climate that inspired his assassination.

www.latimes.com

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Hentenza said:

The British mandate, after ww1, tasked the creation of the nation of Israel. In 1947, the UN propose the plan that partition the area between Arabs and Jews. Israel was formed and immediately the Arabs attacked. This is the short version of the history that you ignored.

Secondly, the Arabs living in Palestine had almost 1800 years to create their own state but did not. The Palestinians have never had their own country.

Enter Hamas. During the early 90’s the PLO and Israel signed the Oslo Accords which brought hope to finally have a resolution including the two state solution. Sadly as the area became radicalized the negotiations stalled. When Hamas came into the picture they rejected the Oslo Accords and began attacking Israel with suicide bombers and rockets leading to the 2008 to 2014 campaign. We know how that one turned out.

Fast forward to 2023 and the October 7 attacks. Israel vowed to fully destroy Hamas. War is a horrible thing and causes civilian deaths but the root cause is Hamas just like the root cause for the destruction of Tokyo was the fault of the Japanese. Look up operation meetinghouse and compare the pictures and casualty numbers.

So just as the Japanese were at fault for their own destruction do is Hamas at fault for all of the deaths and destruction in Gaza.

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ozso said:

The question is who's causing the starvation, Israel or Hamas?

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ViaCrucis said:

Both. Israel is explicitly culpable, but Hamas is implicitly culpable.

Both sides are evil in this conflict.

Pro-Israel apologetics is nothing but justification for slaughter.

-CryptoLutheran

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ViaCrucis said:

Both. Israel is explicitly culpable, but Hamas is implicitly culpable.

Both sides are evil in this conflict.

Pro-Israel apologetics is nothing but justification for slaughter.

-CryptoLutheran

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JusticePercell said:

You are playing the denial game, which is a basic tactic for anyone defending Israel. It is analogous to debating who caused the train wreck with someone who denies that there was a train wreck. Denial is a defense mechanism that protects individuals from unpleasant or threatening realities.

Underlying all your statements is the fact that the Palestinian's human rights have been violated. The Palestinian's right to self-determination was violated by the declaration of Israel in 1948, when Jews were 1/3 the population of Palestine. Additionally, a Jewish State, or a state for any religion, is a violation of the human right to freedom of religion. You refuse to acknowledge these facts of reality.

I know these facts are painful for you. You want to divert attention away from these horrible facts, and discuss anything else. But your attempts to intelligently defend Israel are useless until you can acknowledge and deal with these facts.

However, I want to help you to accept reality by showing how your refusal to do so corrupts your logic. I'll respond to your comment that the British mandate "tasked the creation of the nation of Israel". This is a popular defense of Israel, and it is laughable for anyone who knows anything about the British mandate.

You are referring to the San Remo conference in April, 1920. That conference produced a resolution that was accepted in the League of Nations mandate for Palestine in 1922.

The San Remo resolution included the "Balfour Declaration", in which British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour wrote a letter in 1917 starting with, "His Majesty’s Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...". This of course has been celebrated as the Declaration of Independence for Israel.

The problem, as I keep saying, is that the Balfour Declaration is a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. The British had no right to usurp the right to self-determination of the people of Palestine. The Palestinian people have the right to determine what happens in Palestine, not the British.

Denial of reality is rife with anyone referring to San Remo. The Balfour Declaration also included, "...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

The Declaration of Israel in 1948 was a violation of the civil and religious rights of the majority of Palestinians, to say the least. And yes, the declaration started a war immediately. You are correct. Arabs had every legitimate good reason to attack because the declaration was an act of war, and a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination.

Thus, the declaration of Israel in 1948 was a violation of the Balfour Declaration. The San Remo resolution was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. The League of Nation's Mandate for Palestine was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination.

Continuing, the attempt by the United Nations to partition Palestine in 1947 was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. Truman's recognition of Israel in 1948 was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. The United Nation's admission of Israel in 1949 was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. It was also a violation of Article 1 of the United Nations Charter, which includes "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples,...".

Are you getting the general theme? As for your other comments, everything that has happened in Palestine since the declaration of Israel in 1948 occurred because the declaration was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination, and that has cause wars and death.

Oh, and the Palestinians have never had their own country? The League of Nations mandates had the goal: "Each Mandate had its own separate set of rules for governance. Authority belonged to which ever major power was assisting a country or region’s development toward self-government." [Center for Israel Education]. That Palestine was not allowed to develop self-government, and has not been recognized as a country, has occurred because the Palestinian's right to self-determination has been violated.

So, when are you going to stop denying reality, understand that human rights matter, Palestinians are humans, and accept that Israel does not have the right to exist?

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ViaCrucis said:

Both. Israel is explicitly culpable, but Hamas is implicitly culpable.

Both sides are evil in this conflict.

Pro-Israel apologetics is nothing but justification for slaughter.

-CryptoLutheran

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JusticePercell said:

You are playing the denial game, which is a basic tactic for anyone defending Israel. It is analogous to debating who caused the train wreck with someone who denies that there was a train wreck. Denial is a defense mechanism that protects individuals from unpleasant or threatening realities.

Underlying all your statements is the fact that the Palestinian's human rights have been violated. The Palestinian's right to self-determination was violated by the declaration of Israel in 1948, when Jews were 1/3 the population of Palestine. Additionally, a Jewish State, or a state for any religion, is a violation of the human right to freedom of religion. You refuse to acknowledge these facts of reality.

I know these facts are painful for you. You want to divert attention away from these horrible facts, and discuss anything else. But your attempts to intelligently defend Israel are useless until you can acknowledge and deal with these facts.

However, I want to help you to accept reality by showing how your refusal to do so corrupts your logic. I'll respond to your comment that the British mandate "tasked the creation of the nation of Israel". This is a popular defense of Israel, and it is laughable for anyone who knows anything about the British mandate.

You are referring to the San Remo conference in April, 1920. That conference produced a resolution that was accepted in the League of Nations mandate for Palestine in 1922.

The San Remo resolution included the "Balfour Declaration", in which British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour wrote a letter in 1917 starting with, "His Majesty’s Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...". This of course has been celebrated as the Declaration of Independence for Israel.

The problem, as I keep saying, is that the Balfour Declaration is a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. The British had no right to usurp the right to self-determination of the people of Palestine. The Palestinian people have the right to determine what happens in Palestine, not the British.

Denial of reality is rife with anyone referring to San Remo. The Balfour Declaration also included, "...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

The Declaration of Israel in 1948 was a violation of the civil and religious rights of the majority of Palestinians, to say the least. And yes, the declaration started a war immediately. You are correct. Arabs had every legitimate good reason to attack because the declaration was an act of war, and a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination.

Thus, the declaration of Israel in 1948 was a violation of the Balfour Declaration. The San Remo resolution was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. The League of Nation's Mandate for Palestine was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination.

Continuing, the attempt by the United Nations to partition Palestine in 1947 was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. Truman's recognition of Israel in 1948 was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. The United Nation's admission of Israel in 1949 was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination. It was also a violation of Article 1 of the United Nations Charter, which includes "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples,...".

Are you getting the general theme? As for your other comments, everything that has happened in Palestine since the declaration of Israel in 1948 occurred because the declaration was a violation of the Palestinian's right to self-determination, and that has cause wars and death.

Oh, and the Palestinians have never had their own country? The League of Nations mandates had the goal: "Each Mandate had its own separate set of rules for governance. Authority belonged to which ever major power was assisting a country or region’s development toward self-government." [Center for Israel Education]. That Palestine was not allowed to develop self-government, and has not been recognized as a country, has occurred because the Palestinian's right to self-determination has been violated.

So, when are you going to stop denying reality, understand that human rights matter, Palestinians are humans, and accept that Israel does not have the right to exist?

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Hentenza said:

Regardless of how you attempt to paint me, as dehumanizing the Palestinians, I care tremendously for them...

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Hentenza said:

There has never been a peoples called Palestinians just as there has never been a peoples living in a state called Palestine. The area remained relatively deserted for centuries.

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JosephZ said:

Denying a people's existence is dehumanizing and shows that you don't care about them.

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The origin of Palestinians and their genetic relatedness with other Mediterranean populations - PubMed

The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hentenza said:

So you post two out of context sentences to attempt to prove something that I did not say or feel?

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Hentenza said:

Regardless of how you attempt to paint me, as dehumanizing the Palestinians, I care tremendously for them and pray that Hamas will put their arms down and negotiate but they are a group of radical cockroaches that are going to continue hostilities.

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Hentenza said:

But the issue is who had the right to the land. There has never been a peoples called Palestinians just as there has never been a peoples living in a state called Palestine. The area remained relatively deserted for centuries.

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JosephZ said:

I have added additional context.





Your post is dehumanizing, and you don't dehumanize people you care about.

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JosephZ said:

How do you think Americans would react if the government of another country carved out a portion of the United States and gave the land to foreigners despite American opposition to this plan?


This may come as a surprise, but modern nation-states are a relatively recent concept.


The suicide bombings by Hamas and Islamic Jihad following the signing of the Oslo Accords were in direct response to the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre. It was Israeli settlers that opposed the peace process.

The massacre at the Cave of the Patriarchs – 30 Palestinians killed and more than 120 wounded by automatic gunfire from Baruch Goldstein at the Cave of the Patriarchs on the morning of Purim (and the middle of Ramadan) on February 25, 1994

Provocation to provoke a Palestinian response has always been a cornerstone of the settlers' method of expanding their control. And this time – also according to his wife's testimony – Goldstein's goal was to destroy the Oslo Accords with a massacre that would require revenge. This is what happened in the past: the massacre of the convoy of doctors and nurses to Hadassah on April 13, 1948, in which 77 Jews were murdered, came immediately after the Deir Yassin massacre by the Irgun and Lehi, four days earlier. The settlers internalized and perfected the method.

Hamas and Jihad mobilized for revenge and portrayed Arafat and the PLO as neglecting the defense of their people. After a period of significant calm following the signing of the Oslo Accords, the massacre in the cave sparked a series of revenge attacks unparalleled since the War of Independence. 164 Israelis were murdered in eight bomb attacks, all by Hamas and Jihad, all inside Israel, all from explosive belts and IEDs. The facts did not confuse the settlers who mobilized to dance on the blood and call Rabin a "traitor" for "Rabin gave them guns." After all, the goal - the elimination of Rabin and Oslo - sanctifies lies.

WEST BANK MASSACRE: AT LEAST 40 SLAIN IN WEST BANK AS ISRAELI FIRES INTO MOSQUE; CLINTON MOVES TO RESCUE TALKS -- NEW CLASHES LIKELY.

On the bloodiest day in the occupied territories since Israel captured them in 1967, a Jewish settler killed at least 40 and possibly 50 Palestinians and wounded an estimated 150 others today, spraying them with automatic rifle fire as they knelt together in prayer at a shrine venerated by both Muslims and Jews.

The gunman, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, a 37-year-old resident of Qiryat Arba, opened fire on the Muslim worshipers at dawn in a mosque at the Cave of the Patriarchs in the tinderbox West Bank city of Hebron. The terrorist attack came as the victims were gathered to offer prayers as part of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting.

The Brooklyn-born settler, a follower of the anti-Arab Rabbi Meir Kahane, was apparently beaten to death by the worshipers after they overcame their initial terror.

The massacre touched off Palestinian rioting and clashes with Israeli soldiers that claimed about 10 Arab lives elsewhere in Hebron and other parts of the Israeli-occupied territories.

The massacre of the Muslim worshipers in Hebron sent shock waves through the Middle East and beyond, raising fears for the Israeli-Palestinian peace accord and prompting President Clinton to summon both sides to Washington for nonstop negotiations aimed at keeping the peace effort alive.

The chairman of the P.L.O., Yasir Arafat, described the killings as a "true blow to the peace process."

An armed wing of Hamas, the militant Islamic group, warned of reprisals for the Hebron massacre. In leaflets distributed in Gaza City, it said: "Our response will not take long."



Hamas is only a symptom of decades of injustices against Palestinians. It's the failure to address these injustices that's the root cause of this current conflict.

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FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I disagree with all your points except one: Israel would not exist without US military support.

Jews in Europe would not exist without the support of United States. Without the US military, there wouldn’t be any Jews left in Europe by the time Hitler’s army done with their extinction. Similar events would have taken place in the Soviet Union under Stalin.

Israel would not exist without the support of the United States military. You are right about that! Do you know why ?

Without US military protection, the Arab nation would have acted as Halter’s army did. They would have sent them to extinction.

Without US military support, no Arab nation would have made peace with Israel. Understanding this is essential to grasping Arab politics, culture, and religion.

Christians' support for Israel:

Anyone who follows the Bible and understands scripture will support Jews and Israel, even if they are wrong, because that is what God does.

They are God's chosen people; despite their shortcomings and disobedience, God has repeatedly punished and forgiven them, consistently embracing them as His own. In Romans, Paul advises Christians not to boast about receiving God's grace over Jews, reminding them that Jews are the root and Christians are only a branch. Paul states that, despite Jewish disobedience and rejection of Christ, they remain God’s chosen people and will be restored at the appointed time.

Christians who wish to oppose Israel may do so at their own discretion. I do not consider myself holier-then-thou, nor would I presume to question why God, in His wisdom, repeatedly forgives and offers special consideration to Jews

Romans 11:1-6 “ I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”.

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JusticePercell said:

What specifically do you disagree with? For example, do you disagree that Jews were 1/3 the population in Palestine in 1948, and thus the declaration of Israel was a violation of the majority Palestinian's right to self-determination?

You wrote, "Anyone who follows the Bible and understands scripture will support Jews and Israel, even if they are wrong, because that is what God does."

Ok, obviously, you are conceding that the Jews are wrong. Yes, we agree on that.

But to support Jews when they are wrong is nonsense. It is ridiculous to claim that Christians should support the violation of human rights. That theology is a corruption of everything about Christianity.

Which leads to these questions, do you believe in human rights? Specifically, do you believe in the right to freedom of religion?

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