Who is really responsible for Salvation?

Mercy Shown said:

While God’s love and mercy are vast (Psalm 103:8–12; John 3:16), Scripture consistently teaches that salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith in Christ (John 3:18; Mark 1:15). The idea that all will be saved—often called universalism—contradicts the clear warnings of eternal separation from God for those who reject Him (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:8–9).

Jesus Himself spoke of two distinct destinies: the narrow way that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13–14). Revelation describes a final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

God truly desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3–4), yet He does not force salvation upon anyone. Love by compulsion is not love at all. Those who persist in rejecting His Son remain under condemnation (John 3:36).

Thus, while God’s invitation is universal, the Bible affirms that its acceptance is not.

Click to expand...

Dear Mercy Shown,
Your beliefs ignore the teaching of many scriptures.

Salvation is by "promise" (Gal 3:18) and is not conditional upon man's works. Salvation only requires the works of Christ. That is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

So how can this be true since scripture says (as you pointed out) that faith and repentance from works are required for salvation?

What you are omitting from your understanding is that Christ is the cause of a person's faith and repentance from works. Under the New Covenant, Christ's works are spiritual works that change a person from within. Christ causes mankind to "will" and to speak and to act. The teaching that mankind has a free will ability is a lie from Satan. Only God has a free will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When a believer states that they have a free will ability, they are sitting in God's Temple claiming to be God. This is the common denominator that all apostate believers have.

When Christ is ready for a person to have faith and repent from their works, He will come to them and freely give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. He gives them this gift without their asking for it and without their permission to give it to them.

In the farming analogy, this gift is called the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what the Apostles received while they walked with Christ and it is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. After Christ gave them the Early Rain, they all recognized Jesus as the Christ and they called Him "Lord". So why do we know this is what happened to them. The verse below explains why they had to have been given the Early Rain:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ doesn't give a person the small measure of the Holy Spirit, they will continue in their rejection of Christ until they die. The only way a person can have faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord is if Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Once they have this gift, they can no longer reject Christ. It is in this way that Christ builds His church. It is solely by His work. The person has nothing that can take credit for concerning their faith and their repentance. It was Christ who prepared their heart with the Early Rain and was the one who gave them the answer from their tongue. If Christ wanted the entire world to believe in Him today, all He would have to do is give each person the Early Rain.

You said:
Jesus Himself spoke of two distinct destinies: the narrow way that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13–14). Revelation describes a final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

In this age, God the Father chose certain individuals before the foundation of the world to be saved in this present age. They are the Elect, the heirs of Abraham, the Bride of Christ, the saints, etc. They did not choose Christ, Christ chose them.

Those who are not chosen for salvation in this age will be rejected upon their resurrection and be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol that represents Christ's judgment. His judgment is for the purpose of enforcing the penalty of the Law upon a person for their sins. That penalty is death and not eternal torment in literal fire.

Fire is Christ's spirit word that means judgment. The word that is translated as "eternal" should be translated as "age-during". When Christ casts a person into the Lake of Fire, it is only for a certain portion of that age. At that time, they will be judged by the Law and will experience wrath & torment. But as I have been explaining to FutureAndAHope, Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ will not omit justice, mercy and faith from His judgment (Mat 23:23). Before anyone perishes from their time of judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and freely give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit just as He earlier did for the Elect. After the lost person has this gift of the Spirit, they will have faith and will be "born again" as a child of God. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven leaving the child of the Devil (who they used to be) in the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. After the child of the Devil's destruction, the person will be converted. And like with the Elect, Christ will cause it all to happen. Mankind's salvation is 100% His responsibility and He accomplishes it by His spiritual work within a person.

You said:
God truly desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3–4), yet He does not force salvation upon anyone. Love by compulsion is not love at all. Those who persist in rejecting His Son remain under condemnation (John 3:36).

First of all, 1Tim 2:3-6 does not say "desires", it says "will have". I have heard this argument many times before and it makes little sense. Why? Because "desires" is an emotion and does not require anything to happen to prove that one has it. It merely needs to be stated. But when you read 1Tim 2:3-6, it says that saving all men and having them come to the knowledge of the truth will be testified in due time. In other words, a future event will occur that proves the statement. The only event that can testify to the truth that Christ will save all men and have them come unto the knowledge of the truth is for it to happen. And it will happen just before the end of the final age arrives. When that day comes, it will give glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Secondly, even if "desires" is the proper translation, it makes no difference on the outcome of the statement. Why? Because God always accomplishes His desires.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You said:
Thus, while God’s invitation is universal, the Bible affirms that its acceptance is not.

Your comment shows that you are mixing man's works with faith (mixing the Old and New Covenants). When a believer adds their own works to faith in Christ to do all the works, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine. This of course happens to each babe because Christ causes it to happen - it is part of the pathway that He causes all babes to follow.

These verses apply:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a harlot is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (represents man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

When a babe (Early Rain only) mixes the Old Wine with the New Wine, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to their spiritual death. With this sin, they are following the crooked way of Satan and have become apostate. Again, since the death of Paul, this happens to all babes in Christ.

This verse applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babe who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

A babe's spiritual blindness (Paul's blindness after receiving the Early Rain) is the reason why all babes will fall from grace and become apostate.

If the babe is one of the Elect, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). This is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days. No one can deviate from this pathway. For babes who are not Elect, they will die in their sins and upon their resurrection, Christ will tell them that He never knew them. They will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. But in the end, they will still be saved.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear Mercy Shown,
Your beliefs ignore the teaching of many scriptures.

Salvation is by "promise" (Gal 3:18) and is not conditional upon man's works. Salvation only requires the works of Christ. That is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

So how can this be true since scripture says (as you pointed out) that faith and repentance from works are required for salvation?

What you are omitting from your understanding is that Christ is the cause of a person's faith and repentance from works. Under the New Covenant, Christ's works are spiritual works that change a person from within. Christ causes mankind to "will" and to speak and to act. The teaching that mankind has a free will ability is a lie from Satan. Only God has a free will.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When a believer states that they have a free will ability, they are sitting in God's Temple claiming to be God. This is the common denominator that all apostate believers have.

When Christ is ready for a person to have faith and repent from their works, He will come to them and freely give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. He gives them this gift without their asking for it and without their permission to give it to them.

In the farming analogy, this gift is called the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what the Apostles received while they walked with Christ and it is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. After Christ gave them the Early Rain, they all recognized Jesus as the Christ and they called Him "Lord". So why do we know this is what happened to them. The verse below explains why they had to have been given the Early Rain:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ doesn't give a person the small measure of the Holy Spirit, they will continue in their rejection of Christ until they die. The only way a person can have faith in Christ and accept Him as their Lord is if Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Once they have this gift, they can no longer reject Christ. It is in this way that Christ builds His church. It is solely by His work. The person has nothing that can take credit for concerning their faith and their repentance. It was Christ who prepared their heart with the Early Rain and was the one who gave them the answer from their tongue. If Christ wanted the entire world to believe in Him today, all He would have to do is give each person the Early Rain.

You said:
Jesus Himself spoke of two distinct destinies: the narrow way that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13–14). Revelation describes a final judgment where those not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

In this age, God the Father chose certain individuals before the foundation of the world to be saved in this present age. They are the Elect, the heirs of Abraham, the Bride of Christ, the saints, etc. They did not choose Christ, Christ chose them.

Those who are not chosen for salvation in this age will be rejected upon their resurrection and be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol that represents Christ's judgment. His judgment is for the purpose of enforcing the penalty of the Law upon a person for their sins. That penalty is death and not eternal torment in literal fire.

Fire is Christ's spirit word that means judgment. The word that is translated as "eternal" should be translated as "age-during". When Christ casts a person into the Lake of Fire, it is only for a certain portion of that age. At that time, they will be judged by the Law and will experience wrath & torment. But as I have been explaining to FutureAndAHope, Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ will not omit justice, mercy and faith from His judgment (Mat 23:23). Before anyone perishes from their time of judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and freely give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit just as He earlier did for the Elect. After the lost person has this gift of the Spirit, they will have faith and will be "born again" as a child of God. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven leaving the child of the Devil (who they used to be) in the Lake of Fire to be destroyed. After the child of the Devil's destruction, the person will be converted. And like with the Elect, Christ will cause it all to happen. Mankind's salvation is 100% His responsibility and He accomplishes it by His spiritual work within a person.

You said:
God truly desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3–4), yet He does not force salvation upon anyone. Love by compulsion is not love at all. Those who persist in rejecting His Son remain under condemnation (John 3:36).

First of all, 1Tim 2:3-6 does not say "desires", it says "will have". I have heard this argument many times before and it makes little sense. Why? Because "desires" is an emotion and does not require anything to happen to prove that one has it. It merely needs to be stated. But when you read 1Tim 2:3-6, it says that saving all men and having them come to the knowledge of the truth will be testified in due time. In other words, a future event will occur that proves the statement. The only event that can testify to the truth that Christ will save all men and have them come unto the knowledge of the truth is for it to happen. And it will happen just before the end of the final age arrives. When that day comes, it will give glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Secondly, even if "desires" is the proper translation, it makes no difference on the outcome of the statement. Why? Because God always accomplishes His desires.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You said:
Thus, while God’s invitation is universal, the Bible affirms that its acceptance is not.

Your comment shows that you are mixing man's works with faith (mixing the Old and New Covenants). When a believer adds their own works to faith in Christ to do all the works, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine. This of course happens to each babe because Christ causes it to happen - it is part of the pathway that He causes all babes to follow.

These verses apply:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a harlot is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (represents man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

When a babe (Early Rain only) mixes the Old Wine with the New Wine, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to their spiritual death. With this sin, they are following the crooked way of Satan and have become apostate. Again, since the death of Paul, this happens to all babes in Christ.

This verse applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babe who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

A babe's spiritual blindness (Paul's blindness after receiving the Early Rain) is the reason why all babes will fall from grace and become apostate.

If the babe is one of the Elect, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). This is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days. No one can deviate from this pathway. For babes who are not Elect, they will die in their sins and upon their resurrection, Christ will tell them that He never knew them. They will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. But in the end, they will still be saved.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

Click to expand...

These are nice sentiments but they ignore scripture. Here are just a few.
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

Here’s a clear summary with supporting verses:

1. They remain under God’s wrath

John 3:36 – "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Persistent rejection doesn’t just forfeit blessings—it leaves a person under existing condemnation.

2. They will face eternal separation from God

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9 – "…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

This is one of the clearest NT statements that rejection of God results in everlasting exclusion from His presence.

3. They will be judged according to their deeds

Hebrews 9:27 – "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

Revelation 20:11–15 – "…And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done… And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

4. God gives them over to their own choices

Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28 – "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth… Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts…"

Persistent rejection leads to God allowing them to follow their desires, which results in deeper moral and spiritual ruin.

5. They cannot claim ignorance—God has revealed Himself

Romans 1:20 – "For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived… so they are without excuse."

6. They will not inherit the kingdom of God

Galatians 5:19–21 – "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Revelation 21:8 – "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable… their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him. Jesus makes it clear in John 3:19 that the basis of Judgement is what we love. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Here’s what it’s teaching:

1. The “light” refers to Jesus

In John’s Gospel, light is a recurring metaphor for truth, holiness, and the revelation of God (John 1:4–5, 8:12).

Jesus coming into the world is the decisive moment of God’s truth and salvation being made available.

2. The judgment is based on response to the light

This isn’t judgment in the sense of God arbitrarily condemning people—it’s the reality that people’s reaction to Jesus reveals their spiritual state.

The coming of light exposes hearts for what they are.

3. People’s rejection is rooted in love for sin

The reason given is not intellectual disagreement but moral preference: “people loved darkness rather than the light.”

Darkness means ignorance of God, falsehood, and sin.

This shows rejection of God is a willful choice, driven by affection for sin rather than a lack of evidence.

4. Evil deeds create hostility toward God’s truth

Light exposes evil (John 3:20). Those committed to sinful lifestyles resist exposure and thus reject Christ.

This explains why the gospel meets not only apathy but sometimes hostility—truth unmasks sin, and many prefer to hide.

Mercy Shown said:

These are nice sentiments but they ignore scripture. Here are just a few.
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

Here’s a clear summary with supporting verses:

1. They remain under God’s wrath

John 3:36 – "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Persistent rejection doesn’t just forfeit blessings—it leaves a person under existing condemnation.

2. They will face eternal separation from God

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9 – "…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

This is one of the clearest NT statements that rejection of God results in everlasting exclusion from His presence.

3. They will be judged according to their deeds

Hebrews 9:27 – "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

Revelation 20:11–15 – "…And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done… And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

4. God gives them over to their own choices

Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28 – "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth… Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts…"

Persistent rejection leads to God allowing them to follow their desires, which results in deeper moral and spiritual ruin.

5. They cannot claim ignorance—God has revealed Himself

Romans 1:20 – "For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived… so they are without excuse."

6. They will not inherit the kingdom of God

Galatians 5:19–21 – "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Revelation 21:8 – "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable… their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him. Jesus makes it clear in John 3:19 that the basis of Judgement is what we love. "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Here’s what it’s teaching:

1. The “light” refers to Jesus

In John’s Gospel, light is a recurring metaphor for truth, holiness, and the revelation of God (John 1:4–5, 8:12).

Jesus coming into the world is the decisive moment of God’s truth and salvation being made available.

2. The judgment is based on response to the light

This isn’t judgment in the sense of God arbitrarily condemning people—it’s the reality that people’s reaction to Jesus reveals their spiritual state.

The coming of light exposes hearts for what they are.

3. People’s rejection is rooted in love for sin

The reason given is not intellectual disagreement but moral preference: “people loved darkness rather than the light.”

Darkness means ignorance of God, falsehood, and sin.

This shows rejection of God is a willful choice, driven by affection for sin rather than a lack of evidence.

4. Evil deeds create hostility toward God’s truth

Light exposes evil (John 3:20). Those committed to sinful lifestyles resist exposure and thus reject Christ.

This explains why the gospel meets not only apathy but sometimes hostility—truth unmasks sin, and many prefer to hide.

Click to expand...

Dear Mercy Shown,

You said:
The Bible speaks very directly about the fate of those who persist—deliberately and continually—in rejecting God. The theme is consistent across the Old and New Testaments: ongoing, willful rejection of God leads to separation from Him and ultimately judgment.

All mankind in their natural state will always reject Christ and will always disobey Him. If you can't accept this simple truth, you are not going to understand why the spiritual process of conversion is necessary for a person's salvation.

Here is mankind's natural state of being:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Because all mankind has sinned, all mankind has become the children of the Devil (1John 3:8-10). As a result, all mankind is "condemned already" because of their sin (John 3:18). Nothing can change that fate that awaits them as John 3:36 states. Because death is the fate that awaits all mankind, it is necessary for Christ to convert all the children of the Devil into the children of God BEFORE they perish from the penalty of the Law.

This change is mankind's salvation and is solely Christ's work to perform.

The change from being a child of the Devil into being a child of God is what Christ does to save a person. The spiritual process that Christ uses to make this change is called conversion.

Conversion from a child of the Devil into a child of God cannot be seen with human eyes because it is a spiritual change. This truth is what Christ was teaching in the verse below:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

By the end of the final age, Christ will have converted all mankind into the children of God. After the last person of mankind has been converted, 100% of the children of the Devil will have perished in the Lake of Fire.

As the verse below states, only a person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can call Jesus "Lord". These people are the children of God.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If you can't understand the concept of conversion, you are not going to understand many of the New Covenant teachings of Christ.

All six points that you listed in your post about the children of the Devil are true. I have never stated differently. But what you are missing is that Christ will convert all the children of the Devil into the children of God prior to the child of the Devil's destruction. You don't seem to understand the spiritual process of conversion and why it is necessary for salvation.

I will respond to one more of your comments.

You said:
While it is true that the natural man has no free will, the spiritual man does and he can reject the purpose of God for him.

The natural man is a child of the Devil. This applies to all mankind. The spiritual man is a converted believer. He is no longer a natural man because he has been converted. I will go with the assumption that you understand them in this way.

So you believe that the natural man does not have a free will ability??? I'm puzzled because that belief seems to contradict some of what you have written in your posts. However, that understanding is true. No one has a free will ability.

Let me ask you this: Since the natural man has no free will ability to be able to have faith in Christ and accept Him as Lord (per the verses I quoted at the start of this post), what must happen to the natural man to change him into a believer?

Could it be that Christ must give the natural man the Holy Spirit so that the natural man will become a spiritual man who accepts Christ? And since the natural man does not seek after God or understand Him, it is necessary for Christ to give the Spirit to the natural man without his asking or permission.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The "spiritual man" is a converted believer who is a child of God. He has been given both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. It is this judgment that destroys the natural man (a child of the Devil who disobeys God). Because the spiritual man is governed by the Holy Spirit, they will never reject the "purpose of God for him". And just like Christ, the spiritual man is willing to lay down his life rather than disobey God.

Contrary to your beliefs though, the spiritual man does not have a free will ability. He walks by the Spirit and only does what the Spirit directs him to do. As I have stated, only God has a free will ability.

Joe

FutureAndAHope said:

Calvinism paints a picture of a God who preplanned the salvation of each individual, that the number that was to be saved was fixed before creation, and that the will or actions of man play no part in man's eternal destiny. As stated in The Westminster Confession of Faith:

God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)​

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The idea (above) of God fixing destinies was not believed for the first 400 years of recorded Christian history. Those who came directly after the Apostles believed our actions determine if we are saved. The Earliest Church Leaders believed in Free Will theology. The idea that we work in Synergy with God, that our actions, either good or evil, determine if we are saved. Making statements like:

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

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So what am I posting today? Well, I was doing my daily Bible reading, and came across the following which supports the Free Will, argument.

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: 'I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.' But now the LORD says: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.​

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Firstly, it shows that God's plan is not fixed, that when He decrees a thing, He does change His mind, based upon man's actions. If everything was predestined, then He would "know all things", and would never have made the statement.

Secondly, it shows there is an action of man's that brings God's honor, or displeasure.

for those who honor Me I will honor​

and

and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed​

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God is responsible.
We however, must choose to accept it.
The invitation is open to all.
We must rsvp. Respond

God is not a dictator nor a tyrant.
He knocks politely and enters if we open the door.
He desires to reason with us, to offer protection from impending destruction.
Judgment is inevitable, and none are worthy, nor capable under their own volition of passing from spiritual death to life.
He has done all the work.
What is required is that we willfully enter into covenant and submit not only to His protective guardianship, but become full members of His family.