How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

boughtwithaprice said:

You have posted why you hate the Catholic Church, but you do not say why you love God, and how you will serve Him. The major point of your posts seems to be that a person knows of Jesus, then is guaranteed heaven. Ok, how does that work out here on Earth?
I have been in numerous Protestant congregations and several denominations. The overwhelming condition is that they have to be seeker friendly and walk on egg shells around each other. If one says sin is a bad idea, another cries legalism.
Development is centered around popularity and political power. This results in over emphasis on music, and flashy displays of virtue signaling. It seems everyone wants to be told how good they are and their place in heaven is secure
If it is pointed out that they have an issue with sin, they will complain of being judged, and sermons are given to be great sweeping stories but very little call to holiness. I can only think of the warnings to Laodicea. They say they are rich, well fed, and have need of nothing, but they do not realize that they are miserable blind poor and naked. This is not right
A Christian is supposed to be in self denial, poor in spirit and practicing virtue. How does your congregation convict people of sin, once they are members? It’s easy to tell an unbeliever that they are guilty of sin and need a savior. What do you do when your members behave worse than unbelievers and refuse conviction because they are “saved” and cannot be judged?
Do you worship a god without justice?
How does it work in the real world, not the fantasy world of future heaven?

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I am posting these chapters because of your following comment -

What I found was those who use the Bible to oppose the Catholic Church and their experiences of her, but no one ever says what Catholic teachings are wrong and the Biblical evidence to support them

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To which I responded -

If this is truly what you desire, I would be glad to show you from scripture, where the Roman Catholic church errs. Nevertheless, if this will just offend you, then perhaps it is not a good idea.

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To which you respond -

You can’t offend me. I accept the offense of the cross. I do not wish to offend you, but I will talk of truth

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Which is when I respond with the following, and quoted the first of the chapters I've been quoting as time affords.

Ok then. Let's start with the teaching that Peter is the rock.

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I am simply presenting the biblical arguments you said no one ever presents. I could just quote from countless others who have written untold numbers of scriptural arguments you say no one ever presents. I chose instead to personally address the issue. I do not hate Catholics, having many family and friends of that faith. I do however contest what I believe to be their false claims, in relation to holy scripture in particular, as a student of holy scripture myself.

As a sinner in desperate need of my Savior, no one need be a legalist for pointing out my sins. As I am most certainly guilty of such, this is not legalism as I understand it though. Legalism involves a belief that one can be saved by their "supposed" righteousness, or attempts to control the behavior of others through force or coercion. In relation to religious matters in any case. I'm sure we agree upon many things of a more conservative nature. But that is not what I am addressing. I am addressing Catholic teaching as to whether it is scriptural or not, per your assertions or request as I took it, above.

We will begin this chapter with a biblical examination of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. After which, we will discuss how this doctrine separates humanity from Christ, as do all the non biblical doctrines.

1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

I Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ, who became one of us, is also verily God and therefore immortal. If we attach ourselves to him, then we may also have immortality. This is not however, on account of anything in us, but only because we have accepted the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in our own lives, that the life of the Son might also be within us. Thereby the believer inherits eternal life on account of the Son. ( Rom. 6:5-11 )

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

per·ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per·ished, per·ish·ing, per·ish·es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

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The contrast made in the above verses cannot be mistaken. Those who believe in the Son of man will not perish, but will have eternal life. To perish, is to die, to be destroyed, to pass from existence. This truth is repeated two times in a row by the Son of God. The opposite of eternal life, is death, which is non existence. To perish, and to live on through eternity burning in hell, are two very different things. If you have life, then you are alive. It doesn't matter where you are, or what is happening to you, life is life. Non existence is not life. These two things are opposites, and the Lord Jesus Christ uses them to show the difference between believers, and non believers. Non believers will not have life in any form.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The apostle Paul points out clearly when the saved will receive immortality. It is at the resurrection, that is the second coming of Christ, that the saved will receive immortality. Those who must receive immortality, obviously do not posses it in and of themselves. It is at Christ's appearing that death is swallowed up in victory, not before. True enough, eternal life is secure now, for all the saved, but eternal life will not begin until the appointed time.

Death is swallowed up in victory, when the dead are raised and changed from mortal to immortal at the second coming. If in fact, those who die in Christ go right to heaven to be with Christ for eternity, the above verses would make no sense at all. In fact, the bible would be filled with verses that make no sense at all. A biblical doctrine must be based upon the scriptures as a whole, not just a few verses here and there. While there are a few verses in the bible, that seem to suggest the possibility of the immortality of the soul, the scriptural evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.

1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here again, the apostle Paul makes it clear, that if there is no resurrection, then all who have fallen asleep (or died) even in Christ, are perished. Verse twenty two points out that as all have died in Adam, so will all be made alive in Christ. Verse twenty three points out when all will be made alive, at Christ's coming. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, which is destroyed at the second coming. Again, if the dead in Christ are already alive and in heaven with him, then the above verses not only make no sense, but are a lie. Either the scriptures which we have been discussing are a lie, or the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a lie.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Verse twenty three brings out the contrast again, which cannot be mistaken. The wages of sin is death, which is non existence, not eternal life in hell. On the contrary, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is God a cheap giver? Would he try to pass off on us something that we already have as a gift that we should appreciate so very much? Of course not. God is not a liar, and his word is the truth. Eternal life is a gift from God to the saved, not something that every individual already has in and of themselves. This is exactly the issue at hand, will we die from the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden or not? Pay attention to the following verses.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the issue at hand. Is God a liar, or is Satan a liar? What do you think? The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is nothing more than the perpetuation of the first lie which Satan told to the human race. It is an affront to God, and an issue which God himself will address personally at his second coming, and again at the second resurrection. Make no mistake about it, the soul is not immortal. Those who refuse the gift of God in and through his Son, will not have life.

Those who accept this lie as the truth are calling God a liar, as the Devil did, and does continually, for he is the father of lies. To accept this doctrine as truth, is to undermine the authority of God, and separate oneself from him alone who hath immortality. I do not speak of those who believe it in ignorance, but those who refuse the truth of scripture in favor of that which they prefer to believe. Ignorance however, will be no excuse for those who have opportunity to know the truth, but do not care enough to find out about it.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God alone has immortality. The original sin of Satan was that he wanted to be God, in His place. He may claim immortality for himself, and wish to perpetuate this lie through any means possible, but it will be to no avail. He will come to a complete end. As will all who follow his example. Anyone who claims that they have an immortal soul is defying God, just as Satan himself did, and does to this day. Are you God? If you say that your soul is immortal, then you are saying that you are God, since God alone hath immortality. What more can an individual do, to separate themselves from God? Notice the following.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan is the father of this mindset. He is the original one who wanted to be like God, without being in submission to God. He wanted to be God. Therefore he loves and perpetuates the lie of the immortality of the soul. If in fact, he is immortal, then he is verily God. All those who believe this mindset are following in his footsteps. Unlike God, Satan does not care how he gets followers, as long as he gets them. If he can trick people into following him by getting them to believe a lie, that’s fine. If he can get people to think that they are worshipping God, when they are really worshipping him, that’s great. Don't follow Satan unwillingly, by believing his lies.

The following scriptures are a dual prophecy concerning the king of tyrus and Satan. It is obvious from their content, that they refer to the devil himself, his fall from heaven, and his ultimate end.

Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Satan himself will be no more. So will be the fate of all who refuse the gift which God is offering them through his son. Do not allow Satan to separate you from Christ, through whom you have eternal life, by believing this false doctrine incorporated by the church of Rome.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If the soul is not immortal, just what does happen when someone dies? Let us examine the scriptures to see what they say about this important subject.

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

According to Solomon, the wisest man on earth, the dead know not anything. All of their feelings, emotions, and knowledge are perished. For all intentional purposes then, they basically do not exist, which is what death is, non existence. The bible however, refers to the dead in a manner easier for us comprehend and accept. The bible refers to the dead as being asleep from one end of it to the other. This is a fit description, since sleep is a state of unconsciousness. A person that is sleeping has no awareness at all of what is going on in the world around them, nor are they able to participate in anything in the world around them.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job referred to the dead as sleeping. He even referred to the resurrection, when the Lord would call forth those in the grave. The change he speaks of in verse fourteen is no doubt the change from mortal to immortal at Christ's second coming.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel also spoke of the dead as asleep. Verse two is unquestionably a reference to the resurrection at the second coming.

Ps 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

David also referred to death as a sleep. All through the old testament those who died were referred to as sleeping with their fathers. The same terminology is used in the new testament, and even by Christ himself on both occasions when raising the dead.

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. 53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. 54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. 56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

Jesus did not say that either of the people he raised from the dead were in heaven, or hell, but simply that they were asleep. Notice what Martha said to Jesus when he went to her and Mary to raise their brother from the grave.

John 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Martha understood that the those who sleep in the grave will be called forth from the grave in the last day at the resurrection. Jesus told her, " I am the resurrection, and the life " and then proceeded to prove it by raising her brother, who had been in the tomb for four days. This same thing Jesus will do again for all those who have died in him, when he returns again. Observe the following.

1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In the above scriptures concerning the resurrection, the apostle Paul refers to the dead as sleeping three times. In the previous chapter we quoted some other verses from Paul’s writings that also addressed the resurrection, the dead are referred to as sleeping in these verses also. As previously stated, in order to establish a biblical doctrine, the scriptures must be considered in their entirety. Anyone can take just a few verses, and make them say whatever they wish. Although there are a few verses that seem to suggest that the dead are conscious, the overwhelming weight of scriptural evidence from one end of the bible to the other is to the contrary. These few verses are being misunderstood, and miss applied.

It is of course a doctrine of the church of Rome, that the dead go to heaven, hell, or purgatory at death. The writer will not even waste any time addressing the false doctrine of purgatory. However, by teaching that the saints are alive and in heaven now, the church of Rome again separates humanity from Christ. Those who accept her teachings, pray to certain of the Saints, Mary in particular. By praying to the dead, these poor souls have been separated from the only one who can hear and answer their prayers, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is Christ alone who mediates between man and God the Father in his sanctuary in heaven. The bible condemns communication with the dead for a very good reason. As already pointed out, the dead know not anything. This being the case, those who think they are communicating with the dead, must really be communicating with someone else. That someone else is certainly not God, for he condemns the act. To be sure, Satan and his angles will answer as the dead to those wishing to communicate with the dead, whenever God himself allows it.

Lev 19:1 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; 14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

One of the reasons God allowed Saul to be killed, and turned his kingdom over to David, was because he sought communication with the dead. It is obvious from this incident, that one who seeks communication with the dead, is not seeking communication with God. Nor is it God who answers the prayers of one who prays to the dead. Since the Devil is the father of this lie, that is the immortality of the soul, it is only right, that if anyone, he should answer those who accept this lie by seeking communication with the dead.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Pope John Paul II I believe, thought that Mary saved his life when an attempt was made to assassinate him years ago. He leaned heavily upon her intercession for his church, and humanity as a whole. Mary is dead, she knows not anything, and is incapable of doing anything for anybody. Millions of Roman Catholics and others around the world are praying to dead people that cannot help them in any way. They should be praying to the Lord Jesus Christ, who is able to save to the uttermost, all who call upon his name. Sadly, they have been taught to rely upon others. No doubt, Satan himself will and does do all he can to support this lie, for he is the father of it.

boughtwithaprice said:

Thank you for the clarification. I recognize your efforts


In order to communicate, we must define terms and agree on language and meaning of terms

We can handle on concept at a time. If we use the “shot gun” or multiple topics at once we will only be taking past each other

You mention legalism. We both agree that it is a bad thing, but what is your definition of legalism?

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Placing the law above faith, grace, or heart felt conviction. As though one could be saved by keeping it, or could save others by forcing them to keep it. Either is a manifestation of legalism. To break it down simply.

Amo2 said:

Here we are. Nothing stopping you from proving such, is there? Or do you suppose your word is final, for all?

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My word isn’t final, but the scriptural evidence is overwhelming and I’ve mentioned some of it in a great number of threads, but in the case of both the Landmark Baptists and SDAs, their Memorialist sacramental theology disagrees with a plain reading of John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11 and the other Institution Narratives in the Synoptic Gospels, and their rejection of the tradition of the early church clashes with 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and so on, and of course the idea taught by SDAs that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is St. Michael, a created archangel, clashes with John 1:1-18 and lacks any scriptural support. In other words, to arrive at the anti-sacramental interpretations of the Eucharist and at the idea that Christ our True God is the Holy Archangel Michael requires multiple instances of non-literal interpretation of Scripture which is non-obvious, which contradicts the SDA idea that the interpretation of Scripture advocated by Ellen G. White is the only obvious interpretation (and for this reason SDAs insist they are not only sola scriptura but the most sola scriptura denomination, adhering to what other Protestants call nuda scriptura, which in a sense they are if we regard the writings of Ellen G. White which SDAs interpret as inspired as part of their scriptural canon, which would be logical insofar as an inspired prophecy should be in scripture, since scripture consists of inspired books, but SDAs really don’t want to do that because this would cause their denomination to alienate prospective members who might be understandably perturbed by the addition of numerous extra books of Scripture, but in effect, insofar as these writings, which are believed to be inspired, control SDA interpretation of Scripture, they are effectively and virtually, if not literally, a part of the SDA canon, exerting a gravitational pull on the denomination in the same way the Magisterium exerts a gravitational pull on Roman Catholicism.

The difference of course is that the role of the tradition of the early church, from which the Magisterium is mostly derived, with a few exceptions which have caused the Orthodox to not be in communion with the Roman Catholics, is expressly prescribed by 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Another Scriptural problem (and this is by no means an exhaustive list) relates to truth and charity. Insofar as some SDAs and Landmark Baptists say extremely unkind things about the Roman Catholics, which also lack historical evidence or credibility (for example, the preposterous claim that the Roman Catholics killed 120 million people in the Middle Ages, a figure greater by around 35 million than the population of Western Europe at the time and four times higher than the highest estimated number of casualties of the Plague (30 million), which would be the largest genocide in history and one which is completely lacking in historical and archaeological evidence, is scripturally uncharitable.

As Christians, we have a duty to the Truth, but even moreso to Charity, so when we are making claims that are demonstrably inaccurate about casualty numbers inflicted by a denomination, this is a violation of both precepts, and one we ought to be aware of (when you’re talking about a mortality rate three times higher than the number of people Stalin, considered the most lethal dictator in history, is believed to have killed both intentionally and as a result of his disastrous attempt at agricultural collectivization) that should be a red flag.

Amo2 said:

CHAP. 5 SLEEP OF THE DEAD​

If the soul is not immortal, just what does happen when someone dies? Let us examine the scriptures to see what they say about this important subject.

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Again, what book are you quoting?

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Although the scriptures clearly teach that the dead are in a state of sleep until Christ returns and resurrects them, as the above verses indicate, this is not the case for all those in Christ. When our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross," many bodies of the saints which slept arose". For a while, these resurrected saints witnessed for Christ in Jerusalem. These saints are no doubt in heaven now, some of them may even be among the twenty four elders mentioned in the book of Revelation. There are others that we know are also in heaven now. Observe the following scriptures.

Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch is one of the only two people, according to the scriptures, that did not see death. Elijah is the other one. these two people will not experience the resurrection, for they never died. The only other people that will have this experience, are those who are alive, and saved, when the Lord Jesus Christ returns a second time to receive his own. Here are some verses in relation to Elijah's experience.

II Ki 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Enoch and Elijah both went to heaven without seeing death. There is one other person who also is in heaven, but was resurrected after dying. We know from Matt 7: 1-3 that Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ and certain of his disciples from heaven. The book of Jude tells us that Christ came for the body of Moses, an obvious reference to his resurrection. Notice the following verses.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This Michael, is referred to as the archangel, it is the voice of the archangel that calls forth the dead from their graves at the second coming. There is no reason to believe that the above verse is talking about anything other than the resurrection of Moses from the dead, and the argument the Devil presented to Michael at the event.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is the Lord himself that shouts, with the voice of the archangel. The archangel then, is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, who is also referred to as Michael. Did not our Lord and Savior say that he was the resurrection, and the life.

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is the voice of Christ that brings forth the dead in Christ from their graves when he returns. So Christ, the archangel, and Michael are all the same person but different titles.

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"

From the above verses it is clear that the title of prince applies to Michael. He is the prince that standeth for thy people, that is the Jews. Christ has always been the mediator between man and God. In this sense, He is the prince that standeth for the people.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Daniel speaks of this prince as being connected with the resurrection. When Michael stands up and delivers His people, many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth, or graves, will awake. This is clearly a reference to the resurrection. Rev 12:7 says that Michael and his angels fought the dragon and his angels. Christ calls the angels his many times in the scriptures, especially in connection with his return and the resurrection.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

II Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord Jesus Christ has many names, or titles if you will, throughout the scriptures. Christ is not an angel, but one of His titles includes the word angel. This is not an uncommon thing even in the world today. The President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces, yet he himself is not a member of the armed forces. Christ is the commander of the angels, but He Himself is God.

In the old testament Christ is also referred to as the angel of the Lord. When the angel of the Lord spoke to Jacob, He referred to Himself as God.

Gen 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred."

When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He was first referred to as the angel of the Lord, and then plainly referred to as the Lord.

Exod 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

According to Paul, it was Christ that was with the children of Israel when they wandered through the wilderness. Christ is always the one who mediates between man and God.

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

God told the children of Israel that he would send His angel before them. This angel had God's name in Him. This is because this angel was Christ, whom Paul testified was the one who was with the children of Israel in the wilderness experience.

Exod 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

The Liturgist said:

My word isn’t final, but the scriptural evidence is overwhelming and I’ve mentioned some of it in a great number of threads, but in the case of both the Landmark Baptists and SDAs, their Memorialist sacramental theology disagrees with a plain reading of John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11 and the other Institution Narratives in the Synoptic Gospels, and their rejection of the tradition of the early church clashes with 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and so on, and of course the idea taught by SDAs that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is St. Michael, a created archangel, clashes with John 1:1-18 and lacks any scriptural support. In other words, to arrive at the anti-sacramental interpretations of the Eucharist and at the idea that Christ our True God is the Holy Archangel Michael requires multiple instances of non-literal interpretation of Scripture which is non-obvious, which contradicts the SDA idea that the interpretation of Scripture advocated by Ellen G. White is the only obvious interpretation (and for this reason SDAs insist they are not only sola scriptura but the most sola scriptura denomination, adhering to what other Protestants call nuda scriptura, which in a sense they are if we regard the writings of Ellen G. White which SDAs interpret as inspired as part of their scriptural canon, which would be logical insofar as an inspired prophecy should be in scripture, since scripture consists of inspired books, but SDAs really don’t want to do that because this would cause their denomination to alienate prospective members who might be understandably perturbed by the addition of numerous extra books of Scripture, but in effect, insofar as these writings, which are believed to be inspired, control SDA interpretation of Scripture, they are effectively and virtually, if not literally, a part of the SDA canon, exerting a gravitational pull on the denomination in the same way the Magisterium exerts a gravitational pull on Roman Catholicism.

The difference of course is that the role of the tradition of the early church, from which the Magisterium is mostly derived, with a few exceptions which have caused the Orthodox to not be in communion with the Roman Catholics, is expressly prescribed by 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Another Scriptural problem (and this is by no means an exhaustive list) relates to truth and charity. Insofar as some SDAs and Landmark Baptists say extremely unkind things about the Roman Catholics, which also lack historical evidence or credibility (for example, the preposterous claim that the Roman Catholics killed 120 million people in the Middle Ages, a figure greater by around 35 million than the population of Western Europe at the time and four times higher than the highest estimated number of casualties of the Plague (30 million), which would be the largest genocide in history and one which is completely lacking in historical and archaeological evidence, is scripturally uncharitable.

As Christians, we have a duty to the Truth, but even moreso to Charity, so when we are making claims that are demonstrably inaccurate about casualty numbers inflicted by a denomination, this is a violation of both precepts, and one we ought to be aware of (when you’re talking about a mortality rate three times higher than the number of people Stalin, considered the most lethal dictator in history, is believed to have killed both intentionally and as a result of his disastrous attempt at agricultural collectivization) that should be a red flag.

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Quite a few problems regarding incorrect assumptions in the above. I'm out of time right now, I'll respond later.

boughtwithaprice said:

Given that Our Lord said a house divided against itself cannot stand, and Satan does not cast out Satan, what are your best arguments against the Catholic Church? What basis would you use to call the Catholic Church evil, assuming that you do so?

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I study semantics particular to psycholinguistics. It's how I discern Spirit. The term "Semantics" denotes the sentiments behind the words people use, and the term "psycholinguistics" pertains to the differing nuances in the meanings that individual words can carry in our thoughts and subsequently whether they are objective or subjective applications.

I can tell you that words have power and that lies usurp from the truth, wherefore what we believe to be true will manifest a spirit/emotion and move us accordingly. With that in mind I can say with all certainty that any reasoning based on something false, but believed to be true, will end in a contradiction.

As you have indicated above, the spiritual enemy is the spirit of the devil, or accuser/slanderer. The spirit that scatters the sheep works against the Spirit that gathers the sheep.

The term The "Church", objectively implies a unity of individuals through the Holy Spirit of Truth WHO inwardly convicts us of sin and testifies to God The Father and His son "The Christ", which in turn denotes a positive connotation of "church" even because the church are those led by The Holy Spirit. The term 'catholic' means 'universal', by definition the church all over the world. Therefore, I would never entertain any sentiment/spirit suggesting that the Universal Church around the world could ever be evil, because any such reasoning will ultimately end in a contradiction.

However it would be a mistake, and even misleading to apply the term "catholic/universal" as a 'label' particularly if meant to introduce a false premise. For example, if I joined a gathering labeled the "good guys" club, it wouldn't make me a "good guy" because it's just a label, nor would it make all those who are NOT members, bad guys. I'm saying that I can inadvertently use "Catholic" as a label simply because I say, "I'm Catholic", and the sentiment could then suggest to others who are not "Catholics" , that they are not in the universal church led by the Holy Spirit. Likewise, I would not presume that one must be led by Peter. I therefore understand the communion of the saints as a communion in Christ's blood shed on his cross, even because the sacred thing of the sacrament is to me his loving sacrifice wherein he suffered so much, for me.

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1 Corinthians 3​

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New American Standard Bible​

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2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to consume it. But even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like ordinary people? 4 For when one person says, “I am [a]with Paul,” and another, “I am [b]with Apollos,” are you not ordinary people?​

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5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one; but each will receive his own [c]reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s [d]field, God’s building.​

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10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each one’s work. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.​

The Liturgist said:

Again, what book are you quoting?

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My bad, I thought I included it on the first chapter when I quoted it. The name of the book is CHRIST AND ROME. It is an unpublished work, which I update every now and then since I first wrote it.

An evil doctrine? What about an evil spirit? If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - How about some truthful doctrine
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - 1 John 1:5

Unfortunately, though, the light and the darkness interact here on planet Earth...Comparing the light and the darkness, the opposite of E/c2 would be z (absolute zero)/ d (darkness)...

Natural z/d - Nothing, empty space.
Mental z/d - Again nothing but empty space.
Spiritual z/d - z (laziness, coldness, hatred) / d (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

I have met such a variety of spirits.... All within the same mental doctrine! A good doctrine ought to be accompanied with good spirits.

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you... - Galatians 4:19

When the Christ is formed there will be a wonderful motivation, warmth, love, faith, hope, charity, and joy. When those spiritual things do not accompany a doctrine I worry about the so-called truthful teachings.

When I was young I would seek out good truthful doctrine. My main objective was to live in truth. I quickly learned that one can run across good and terrible people all within the same agreed doctrine.

My people come from good Methodist teaching and would be what I would consider good people. While gathering pictures from my families history I am missing an "Aunt Virginia." Nobody took a picture of her! While pressing my dad over this he finally paused and said... Aunt Virginia was a terrible person! I have discovered one can have good and terrible people all within the same family. Whether it be family kinfolk or actual church family. And one can have a wonderful church... All to have it go bad the next generation.

I have no problems with the Catholic church. Not interested in joining.... Or criticizing either.... If I ever get to visit Lake Superior I want to look up the bakery run by Catholic Monks. It would be interesting to spend time with them and chat...

The Liturgist said:

My word isn’t final, but the scriptural evidence is overwhelming and I’ve mentioned some of it in a great number of threads, but in the case of both the Landmark Baptists and SDAs, their Memorialist sacramental theology disagrees with a plain reading of John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11 and the other Institution Narratives in the Synoptic Gospels, and their rejection of the tradition of the early church clashes with 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and so on,

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Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

The quoted and emphasized words of Christ above conclusively state our exact sentiments concerning our Holy Communion services. All priesthoods or ecclesiastics set up for the purposes of supposed transubstantiations, are of extra biblical teaching, practice, or institution. Nothing in any of the scriptures you referred to rather than quoted, contradicts the spiritual application of our Lord being the bread of life, or the New Covenant being established with and by the blood of Jesus. To the contrary, these spiritual truths fulfill many Old Covenant types and symbols, as addressed in some of the scriptures you referred to.

The Liturgist said:

and of course the idea taught by SDAs that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is St. Michael, a created archangel, clashes with John 1:1-18 and lacks any scriptural support. In other words, to arrive at the anti-sacramental interpretations of the Eucharist and at the idea that Christ our True God is the Holy Archangel Michael requires multiple instances of non-literal interpretation of Scripture which is non-obvious, which contradicts the SDA idea that the interpretation of Scripture advocated by Ellen G. White is the only obvious interpretation (and for this reason SDAs insist they are not only sola scriptura but the most sola scriptura denomination, adhering to what other Protestants call nuda scriptura, which in a sense they are if we regard the writings of Ellen G. White which SDAs interpret as inspired as part of their scriptural canon, which would be logical insofar as an inspired prophecy should be in scripture, since scripture consists of inspired books, but SDAs really don’t want to do that because this would cause their denomination to alienate prospective members who might be understandably perturbed by the addition of numerous extra books of Scripture, but in effect, insofar as these writings, which are believed to be inspired, control SDA interpretation of Scripture, they are effectively and virtually, if not literally, a part of the SDA canon, exerting a gravitational pull on the denomination in the same way the Magisterium exerts a gravitational pull on Roman Catholicism.

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Wow, that was a mouthful. Though highly inaccurate. SDA's do not believe Jesus Christ was a created archangel. Any more than we believe He was or is a loaf of bread because He may be referred to as the bread of life. Or was just a man because one of His titles is the Son of man. Or a lion as in the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and so on and so forth according to the many titles applied to our Savior. SDA's clearly and conclusively teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is from and to eternity. No beginning, no end. Always has been, and always will be. God in verity. We believe Michael was the pre-incarnate Christ, because of the divine attributes applied to Him, and even title of angel attributed to Him in holy scripture as well. Not that He was an angel, but was and is considered the head angel by the angels, just as all in Christ now consider Him the head of humanity as well. The highest Human being of all, who is God. As He was and is God to the angles also. Only we now have the completely undeserved exalted position of being literal blood relations to God Himself in and through Christ Jesus our Lord. Mercy and grace beyond comprehension, all glory to God. Amen.

Nor did such thoughts or teachings arise by the mouth or pen of Ellen G. White, but was believed and taught by many Protestants and others before her. As the vast majority of SDA teachings are or were. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742). But these traditions, as usual, are erected on very slender Scriptural foundation. A. B ( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)

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ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

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"The archangel" (#Jude 1:9). Probably also the unnamed archangel of #1Th 4:16 is Michael. In the Old Testament he is mentioned by name only in Daniel. He is "one of the chief princes" (#Da 10:13), the "prince" of Israel (#Da 10:21), "the great prince" (#Da 12:1); perhaps also "the prince of the host" (#Da 8:11). In all these passages Michael appears as the heavenly patron and champion of Israel; as the watchful guardian of the people of God against all foes earthly or devilish. In the uncanonical apocalyptic writings, however, Jewish angelology is further developed. In them Michael frequently appears and excretes functions similar to those which are ascribed to him in Daniel. He is the first of the "four presences that stand before God"—Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel or Phanuel (En 9:1; 40:9). In other apocryphal books and even elsewhere in En, the number of archangels is given as 7 (En 20:1-7; Tobit 12:15; compare also #Re 8:2). Among the many characterizations of Michael the following may be noted: He is "the merciful and long-suffering" (En 40:9; 68:2,3), "the mediator and intercessor" (Ascension of Isaiah, Latin version 9:23; Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Levi 5; Da 6). It is he who opposed the Devil in a dispute concerning Moses’ body (#Jude 1:9). This passage, according to most modern authorities, is derived from the apocryphal Assumption of Moses (see Charles’ edition, 105-10). It is Michael also who leads the angelic armies in the war in heaven against "the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan" (#Re 12:7 ). According to Charles, the supplanting of the "child" by the archangel is an indication of the Jewish origin of this part of the book.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

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Apart from the above, I seem to recall many years ago while examining the writings of the "Church Fathers", I found that some or at least one of them believed Michael the archangel to be Christ as well. I need to find that again, if or when I do, I will of course share the source. In any case, the belief is not of SDA origin. Nor are the writings of Ellen G. White to determine scriptural teaching at all, but rather to be judged themselves by the same, as EGW herself identified them as the highest authority and final word over all others.

The Liturgist said:

The difference of course is that the role of the tradition of the early church, from which the Magisterium is mostly derived, with a few exceptions which have caused the Orthodox to not be in communion with the Roman Catholics, is expressly prescribed by 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Another Scriptural problem (and this is by no means an exhaustive list) relates to truth and charity. Insofar as some SDAs and Landmark Baptists say extremely unkind things about the Roman Catholics, which also lack historical evidence or credibility (for example, the preposterous claim that the Roman Catholics killed 120 million people in the Middle Ages, a figure greater by around 35 million than the population of Western Europe at the time and four times higher than the highest estimated number of casualties of the Plague (30 million), which would be the largest genocide in history and one which is completely lacking in historical and archaeological evidence, is scripturally uncharitable.

As Christians, we have a duty to the Truth, but even moreso to Charity, so when we are making claims that are demonstrably inaccurate about casualty numbers inflicted by a denomination, this is a violation of both precepts, and one we ought to be aware of (when you’re talking about a mortality rate three times higher than the number of people Stalin, considered the most lethal dictator in history, is believed to have killed both intentionally and as a result of his disastrous attempt at agricultural collectivization) that should be a red flag.

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The main problems with your above assertions are of course, that they have and continue to be highly contested, and are in fact not well scripturally supported. Which is why no doubt you prefer to refer to the scriptures, than quote and closely examine them. Nor care anything for very large volumes of historical record which contradict your own chosen accounts or simply claimed narrative. There is no charity in covering up or lying about the facts of history, which hopefully none of us want repeated.

Amo2 said:

Nor are the writings of Ellen G. White to determine scriptural teaching at all, but rather to be judged themselves by the same, as EGW herself identified them as the highest authority and final word over all others.

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Are there any instances where Ellen G. White gave an interpretation of the Bible you disagree with?

boughtwithaprice said:

The verses you quote, merely show that existence in hell is not life.

From the review of history and torture, it has been found that one of the most painful things that can be done to a man is to drill his two upper teeth without anesthesia. If one would be in a perpetual state of such pain, would you consider that life?

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Yes, the pain is as deep as any I ever felt in an upper tooth, passing kidney stones is right up there though different in nature, one migraine in particular surpassed all to the point of violence against my own self, but I was alive throughout all of it. Unquestionably conscious, excruciatingly and mournfully so, which would no doubt be the entire point of eternal punishment by fire I would imagine. Praise God no such thing shall be effected eternally.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

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They are not still burning today are they? No, the flames went out long ago, and Sodom and Gomorrha are no more. Praise the unending mercy of God. Amen.

boughtwithaprice said:

No one possesses immortality of themselves, we owe our whole existence to God, as we were brought about by His will, and we are born again not of ourselves.

Scripture tells us that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. We are brought into existence by His will, and He will not repent of that gift. You said it right, God is not a liar

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No, He will not repent of the gift He has given us. Only we can deny or change the gift He has given. Which is pretty much the whole point. Choose you this day.

boughtwithaprice said:

It helps if we review the Greek

In biblical Greek, "eternal life" is typically translated as "zoe aionios" (ζωή αἰώνιος), which literally means "age-long life" or "life of the age". While often translated as "eternal," the Greek word aionios can also refer to the quality or characteristic of a life that is age-long or unending, rather than simply the length of time. The word zoe (ζωή) refers to life, particularly in the sense of spiritual or divine life, as opposed to bios (βίος), which refers to physical life, or psyche (ψυχή), which refers to the soul.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Zoe (ζωή):
  This word signifies life, specifically in the sense of a divine, eternal, and spiritual life, as opposed to merely physical existence. It is the life that God gives and sustains.
  
  
• Aionios (αἰώνιος):
  This adjective describes something as age-long, unending, or pertaining to an age or era. In the context of "eternal life," it emphasizes the quality and nature of the life, rather than just its duration. It can refer to both the present age and the age to come.

Therefore, "eternal life" in the Bible, as expressed by zoe aionios, encompasses not only unending existence but also a specific quality of life that is God-given, spiritually vibrant, and enduring. It is often associated with salvation and a relationship with God

Those that are born again and repent toward God are offered something much more than eternal existence, rather eternal existence with God, in the full light of His love. That is the beatific vision

Existence in separation from God is not life, as all hope, all love, all joy dies. Jesus tells us it is where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched
Jesus speaks of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born, implying that his eternity is worse than not existing at all
If annihilationism were true, Jesus’ words there would have no meaning. The wicked could then curse God without fear because he could reason that the torment will eventually end and he can go out cursing God. That is not taught in the Bible. Hell is a place to avoid and the horror is that it is eternal

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Opinions are many and varied, truth they do not equal. The word of God stands forever.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. 2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. 3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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What church is my biggest enemy? That which is within! The one I belong to! Where do I begin to improve? Within my own organization!

Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. - 2 Corinthians 11:28

JSRG said:

Are there any instances where Ellen G. White gave an interpretation of the Bible you disagree with?

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Before responding to this question let me note, that I have not referred to or quoted Ellen G. White on any of the threads on these boards even once, to present and or defend my positions. This is because I do not need them at all to do so. As holy scripture, the writings of the Reformers, historians, scientists, at times even “Church Fathers”, or the Catholic Catechism, Papal Encyclicals or Doctrinal Notes, and other sources are far more than sufficient to the task. The surface of the far greater part of which, I have barely begun to scratch.

My exact intent and purpose is to prove that the vast majority of what SDA’s believe, and that which Ellen G. White herself wrote or addressed, is basically the logical progression of truly Protestant thought. In accordance with the holy scriptures being the final word on all subjects which they themselves address, and the existing historical testimonies of Protestants themselves. I will therefore not be addressing the writings of EGW on this thread or any others I have started or am presently addressing. I would be glad however, to address her writings in a thread regarding that topic.

It has been my experience over the last few decades, that those I am conversing or debating with, bring her up as a sort of diversionary tactic. If this is not their reasoning, it is the usual effect of doing so, changing the focus of the discussion to a single person with unending accusations and arguments. Rather than the plethora of biblical, historical, Protestant, and authentic Christian testimony that exists regarding the truths SDA’s seek to establish and promulgate. Ellen G. White herself having learned the greater part of what she believed from such sources as well, rather than through direct divine vision or revelation. Her gift itself being more along the lines of confirmation, than endless new or unheard of revelations.

The simple answer to your question is no. My personal studies regarding many of the sources already mentioned over several decades now, have only confirmed the testimonies from her which I have read. I do not consider that she is the original source of anything I have been discussing on these boards. Only a source whom God used to remind and confirm long established truths, which many had forgotten or worse yet, lost interest in. As “we have nothing to fear from the future, save we forget the lessons we have learned from the past.”

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

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The Liturgist said:

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Have a wonderful Feast of the Dormition!