That Which is Born of the Spirit

NewLifeInChristJesus · Wednesday at 11:17 AM

Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6). This was a direct response to Nicodemus' question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" (Jn 3:4) The answer makes a very good point -- there is a difference between the physical lives that all of us have and the spiritual lives that are only exist inside those who have been born of God.

Of primary interest is the fact that a "spirit" is created when God gives birth to it. And when other Scriptures speak of this spirit, it says things like, "the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10 NASB), and "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Going beyond this, we also see that the new creature created by God giving birth to it partakes of His divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), and that by virtue of the fact that God is the One who has given birth to it, the new creature is free of sin, cannot be corrupted by sin, and is untouchable by the devil (1 Jn 3:9, 5:18).

The life that God creates by spiritual birth is often contrasted with our physical lives that came from Adam and Eve by way of our biological mothers and fathers. Every person's physical life ends in death (i.e., "it is appointed for men to die once" -- Heb 9:27). But their spiritual lives are preceeded by spiritual death. When Scripture speaks of this, we are characterized as being "dead in your trespasses" but "made alive together with Him" (Col 2:13), or "when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5). These verses and others like them say we were resurrected from the dead with Christ. This must be about our spiritual lives because otherwise only people who are physically dead could be raised to new life in Christ.

But there is no mention in Scripture of the spiritual lives that we inherited from Christ will ever perish. Certainly, this would be at odds with the great number os Scriptures that characterize our spiritual lives as "everlasting" and Jesus' promises that our new lives we received from Him would never end (Jn 10:28, etc). The earliest Christian writings that contain the notion that a person could "give up" his spiritual life are referenced here (in BDAG of all places)...

This life, as long as they are in the body, κέκρυπται σὺν τ. Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ is hidden with Christ in God Col 3:3. Those who forfeit their ζ. (=their real life in contrast to their physical existence as ψυχή) are excluded fr. the life of glory Hv 1, 1, 9; Hs 6, 2, 3; 8, 6, 4; 6; 8, 8, 2f; 5; 9, 21, 4. [Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 430). University of Chicago Press.]

Hv and Hs refer to Shepherd of Hermas Visions and Similtudes dated around 90-100 AD. It is noteworthy that BDAG provides no Biblical references for the idea that spiritual life can be forfieted.

Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

Hoping2 · Wednesday at 3:08 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6). This was a direct response to Nicodemus' question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" (Jn 3:4) The answer makes a very good point -- there is a difference between the physical lives that all of us have and the spiritual lives that are only exist inside those who have been born of God.

Of primary interest is the fact that a "spirit" is created when God gives birth to it. And when other Scriptures speak of this spirit, it says things like, "the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10 NASB), and "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Going beyond this, we also see that the new creature created by God giving birth to it partakes of His divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), and that by virtue of the fact that God is the One who has given birth to it, the new creature is free of sin, cannot be corrupted by sin, and is untouchable by the devil (1 Jn 3:9, 5:18).

Amen to that !

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
The life that God creates by spiritual birth is often contrasted with our physical lives that came from Adam and Eve by way of our biological mothers and fathers. Every person's physical life ends in death (i.e., "it is appointed for men to die once" -- Heb 9:27). But their spiritual lives are preceeded by spiritual death. When Scripture speaks of this, we are characterized as being "dead in your trespasses" but "made alive together with Him" (Col 2:13), or "when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5). These verses and others like them say we were resurrected from the dead with Christ. This must be about our spiritual lives because otherwise only people who are physically dead could be raised to new life in Christ.

When I was water baptized into Christ, (for the remission of past sins), I was actually crucified and buried with Christ. (Rom 6:3-5, Gal 5:24, Col 2:12
I was then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23(, and I was awarded that wage at my death in Christ.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
But there is no mention in Scripture of the spiritual lives that we inherited from Christ will ever perish. Certainly, this would be at odds with the great number os Scriptures that characterize our spiritual lives as "everlasting" and Jesus' promises that our new lives we received from Him would never end (Jn 10:28, etc). The earliest Christian writings that contain the notion that a person could "give up" his spiritual life are referenced here (in BDAG of all places)...

This life, as long as they are in the body, κέκρυπται σὺν τ. Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ is hidden with Christ in God Col 3:3. Those who forfeit their ζ. (=their real life in contrast to their physical existence as ψυχή) are excluded fr. the life of glory Hv 1, 1, 9; Hs 6, 2, 3; 8, 6, 4; 6; 8, 8, 2f; 5; 9, 21, 4. [Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 430). University of Chicago Press.]

Hv and Hs refer to Shepherd of Hermas Visions and Similtudes dated around 90-100 AD. It is noteworthy that BDAG provides no Biblical references for the idea that spiritual life can be forfieted.

Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

Some can't believe that at their death with Christ, and their rebirth from God's seed, all of Adam's influence died too. (2 Cor 5:17)

Dan Perez · Wednesday at 4:30 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6). This was a direct response to Nicodemus' question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" (Jn 3:4) The answer makes a very good point -- there is a difference between the physical lives that all of us have and the spiritual lives that are only exist inside those who have been born of God.

Of primary interest is the fact that a "spirit" is created when God gives birth to it. And when other Scriptures speak of this spirit, it says things like, "the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10 NASB), and "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Going beyond this, we also see that the new creature created by God giving birth to it partakes of His divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), and that by virtue of the fact that God is the One who has given birth to it, the new creature is free of sin, cannot be corrupted by sin, and is untouchable by the devil (1 Jn 3:9, 5:18).

The life that God creates by spiritual birth is often contrasted with our physical lives that came from Adam and Eve by way of our biological mothers and fathers. Every person's physical life ends in death (i.e., "it is appointed for men to die once" -- Heb 9:27). But their spiritual lives are preceeded by spiritual death. When Scripture speaks of this, we are characterized as being "dead in your trespasses" but "made alive together with Him" (Col 2:13), or "when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5). These verses and others like them say we were resurrected from the dead with Christ. This must be about our spiritual lives because otherwise only people who are physically dead could be raised to new life in Christ.

But there is no mention in Scripture of the spiritual lives that we inherited from Christ will ever perish. Certainly, this would be at odds with the great number os Scriptures that characterize our spiritual lives as "everlasting" and Jesus' promises that our new lives we received from Him would never end (Jn 10:28, etc). The earliest Christian writings that contain the notion that a person could "give up" his spiritual life are referenced here (in BDAG of all places)...

This life, as long as they are in the body, κέκρυπται σὺν τ. Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ is hidden with Christ in God Col 3:3. Those who forfeit their ζ. (=their real life in contrast to their physical existence as ψυχή) are excluded fr. the life of glory Hv 1, 1, 9; Hs 6, 2, 3; 8, 6, 4; 6; 8, 8, 2f; 5; 9, 21, 4. [Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 430). University of Chicago Press.]

Hv and Hs refer to Shepherd of Hermas Visions and Similtudes dated around 90-100 AD. It is noteworthy that BDAG provides no Biblical references for the idea that spiritual life can be forfieted.

Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

And you quoted Rom 6:3 and says Or , are you IGNORANT, that as many as were BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus

were BAPTIZED into his Death. ?? My question is , explain how one is BAPTIZED into his death as the Greek

word for. WATER // HYDOR is not in. the Greek. Text ??

And you quoted verse 4 says Therefore , we were BAPTISMA , into the Death and BAPTISMA is. in. the Greek text and

BAPTISMA is used 22 times beginning. with Matt 3:7 and ends in 1 Peter 3:21 !!

dan p

NewLifeInChristJesus · Thursday at 11:26 AM

Dan Perez said:
And you quoted Rom 6:3 and says Or , are you IGNORANT, that as many as were BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus

were BAPTIZED into his Death. ?? My question is , explain how one is BAPTIZED into his death as the Greek

word for. WATER // HYDOR is not in. the Greek. Text ??

And you quoted verse 4 says Therefore , we were BAPTISMA , into the Death and BAPTISMA is. in. the Greek text and

BAPTISMA is used 22 times beginning. with Matt 3:7 and ends in 1 Peter 3:21 !!

dan p

I was confused at first when I read this because I did not mention baptism and I did not reference Romans 6:3 or Romans 6:4. Then, when I searched the page for "baptize", my confusion was cleared up. You replied to my post, but you were responding to what Hoping2 wrote.

I suppose you are objecting to her comment that her "water baptism" is what killed her flesh and resurrected her from the dead. If so, we are on the same page in that regard. But I see more wrong in not believing we died with Christ and rose to new life together with Him than I do with thinking wrongly that water baptism is what caused it to happen. Do you agree with that?

NewLifeInChristJesus · Thursday at 11:43 AM

Hoping2 said:
Amen to that !

When I was water baptized into Christ, (for the remission of past sins), I was actually crucified and buried with Christ. (Rom 6:3-5, Gal 5:24, Col 2:12
I was then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
The wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23(, and I was awarded that wage at my death in Christ.

Some can't believe that at their death with Christ, and their rebirth from God's seed, all of Adam's influence died too. (2 Cor 5:17)

Am I wrong about your belief in sinless perfection? I know it is hard to answer that question directly. So let me ask it another way. Now that you are alive to God and dead to sin, do you see no vestiges of the sinful flesh remaining with the effect that you no longer see the body as being dead because of sin (Ro 8:10, etc.)?

Hoping2 · Thursday at 3:17 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Am I wrong about your belief in sinless perfection?

You are not wrong, about what faith has accomplished, by God, in me.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
I know it is hard to answer that question directly.

Not at all, as it is the means by which we glorify God and the name of His Son, Jesus.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
So let me ask it another way. Now that you are alive to God and dead to sin, do you see no vestiges of the sinful flesh remaining with the effect that you no longer see the body as being dead because of sin (Ro 8:10, etc.)?

I see no vestiges of the now dead-old me.
He was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)
Thanks be to God.

Dan Perez · Thursday at 4:15 PM

And many are confused when I ask them how. they BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus and BAPTIZED into his DEATH. ?

The Greek word has many definitions !!

How would YOU. explain 1 Cor 10 :2 , and all were BAPTIZED UNTO , Moses unto , in the Cloud and in the SEA ?? and I.

will help you out . if you want ?? as the CLOUD and the SEA has a meaning. !!

Remember that many. Greek words have many meanings. ??

dan p

NewLifeInChristJesus · Friday at 9:41 AM

Hoping2 said:
You are not wrong, about what faith has accomplished, by God, in me.

Not at all, as it is the means by which we glorify God and the name of His Son, Jesus.

I see no vestiges of the now dead-old me.
He was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)
Thanks be to God.

Thank you for answering the question. I have a couple of follow-on questions because I don't quite understand the sinless perfection argument.

Scripture is clear in its instructions to Christians to avoid sinning. It is unclear to me how you all address that issue. My most reasonable guess is that you all think it is possible to sin, but you are empowered to avoid it. But then, that would contradict verses like 1 Jonh 3:9 and Ephesians 4:24. My second best guess would be that you see the imperatives that urge people to stop sinning are simply calls for them to be saved so that after that they won't sin any more. Can you provide the sinless perfection perspective on Scripture's instructions to Christians to avoid sinning?

NewLifeInChristJesus · Friday at 9:49 AM

Dan Perez said:
And many are confused when I ask them how. they BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus and BAPTIZED into his DEATH. ?

The Greek word has many definitions !!

How would YOU. explain 1 Cor 10 :2 , and all were BAPTIZED UNTO , Moses unto , in the Cloud and in the SEA ?? and I.

will help you out . if you want ?? as the CLOUD and the SEA has a meaning. !!

Remember that many. Greek words have many meanings. ??

dan p

I was hoping to discuss the contrast between the new lives we have in Christ and the old lives we have in Adam since many people tend to conflate the two.

Dan Perez · Friday at 2:35 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Thank you for answering the question. I have a couple of follow-on questions because I don't quite understand the sinless perfection argument.

Scripture is clear in its instructions to Christians to avoid sinning. It is unclear to me how you all address that issue. My most reasonable guess is that you all think it is possible to sin, but you are empowered to avoid it. But then, that would contradict verses like 1 Jonh 3:9 and Ephesians 4:24. My second best guess would be that you see the imperatives that urge people to stop sinning are simply calls for them to be saved so that after that they won't sin any more. Can you provide the sinless perfection perspective on Scripture's instructions to Christians to avoid sinning?

AND you will be Perfect IF you were living in. the Great Tribulation. and 1 John. 5;18 We know that whosoever is BORN

of God sinnrth NOT //. is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE. NEGATIVE and that Greek word NOT , means neverrrrrrrr. ever sin , EVER

dan p

NewLifeInChristJesus · Friday at 4:19 PM

Dan Perez said:
AND you will be Perfect IF you were living in. the Great Tribulation. and 1 John. 5;18 We know that whosoever is BORN

of God sinnrth NOT //. is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE. NEGATIVE and that Greek word NOT , means neverrrrrrrr. ever sin , EVER

dan p

BDAG says "οὐ" it is an "objective negative adverb" denying the reality of an alleged fact, in the NT used with inicatives (which we have here), and before vowels with rough breathing marks (which we have here) takes the form "οὐχ":

οὐ (Hom.+; s. Schwyzer II 591–94) objective (as opp. to subjective μή) negative adv., denying the reality of an alleged fact; in the NT used w. the ind. (μή serves as the neg. for the other moods, including inf. and ptc.—w. certain exceptions, which will be discussed below. S. B-D-F §426; Rob. 1168f; Mlt-Turner 281f). Before vowels w. the smooth breathing it takes the form οὐκ; before those w. the rough breathing it is οὐχ;

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 733). University of Chicago Press.

Other than the classification, we agree on the idea that the clear language of 1 John 5:18 is that sin does not come from out of one born of God. I make this fact a current reality, attributing it to the new man as an integral part of His nature. But you make it a future reality for the whole man (flesh + spirit) only in the tribulation. So it appears you don't believe that the new man of Ephesians 4:24 is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness". Maybe you could clarify.

CoreyD · Friday at 6:36 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6). This was a direct response to Nicodemus' question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" (Jn 3:4) The answer makes a very good point -- there is a difference between the physical lives that all of us have and the spiritual lives that are only exist inside those who have been born of God.

Of primary interest is the fact that a "spirit" is created when God gives birth to it. And when other Scriptures speak of this spirit, it says things like, "the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10 NASB), and "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Going beyond this, we also see that the new creature created by God giving birth to it partakes of His divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), and that by virtue of the fact that God is the One who has given birth to it, the new creature is free of sin, cannot be corrupted by sin, and is untouchable by the devil (1 Jn 3:9, 5:18).

The life that God creates by spiritual birth is often contrasted with our physical lives that came from Adam and Eve by way of our biological mothers and fathers. Every person's physical life ends in death (i.e., "it is appointed for men to die once" -- Heb 9:27). But their spiritual lives are preceeded by spiritual death. When Scripture speaks of this, we are characterized as being "dead in your trespasses" but "made alive together with Him" (Col 2:13), or "when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5). These verses and others like them say we were resurrected from the dead with Christ. This must be about our spiritual lives because otherwise only people who are physically dead could be raised to new life in Christ.

But there is no mention in Scripture of the spiritual lives that we inherited from Christ will ever perish. Certainly, this would be at odds with the great number os Scriptures that characterize our spiritual lives as "everlasting" and Jesus' promises that our new lives we received from Him would never end (Jn 10:28, etc). The earliest Christian writings that contain the notion that a person could "give up" his spiritual life are referenced here (in BDAG of all places)...

This life, as long as they are in the body, κέκρυπται σὺν τ. Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ θεῷ is hidden with Christ in God Col 3:3. Those who forfeit their ζ. (=their real life in contrast to their physical existence as ψυχή) are excluded fr. the life of glory Hv 1, 1, 9; Hs 6, 2, 3; 8, 6, 4; 6; 8, 8, 2f; 5; 9, 21, 4. [Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 430). University of Chicago Press.]

Hv and Hs refer to Shepherd of Hermas Visions and Similtudes dated around 90-100 AD. It is noteworthy that BDAG provides no Biblical references for the idea that spiritual life can be forfieted.

Why then, given these things, do we not make more of a distiction between the new lives we have in Christ and the physical lives we have in Adam?

I'm not sure if I am answering your exact point, but I'll just like to point out that spiritual lives do die, and born again ones can indeed perish, as they do not have everlasting life unless they remain faithful to death... that is, physical death.
Mark 13:13; Luke 21:19; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:36, 38, 39; Revelation 2:10

Hoping2 · Friday at 10:31 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Thank you for answering the question. I have a couple of follow-on questions because I don't quite understand the sinless perfection argument

Ask away !

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Scripture is clear in its instructions to Christians to avoid sinning.

Are we ever instructed to do the impossible ?
Not at all !

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
It is unclear to me how you all address that issue. My most reasonable guess is that you all think it is possible to sin, but you are empowered to avoid it.

Correct.
The old man, "flesh", prior affections, and lusts, have all been crucified.
Temptations can be resisted after rebirth from God's seed.
Further sin manifests one never truly repented of sin or was reborn of God's seed...as we can only bring forth the 'fruit' of our Progenitor.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
But then, that would contradict verses like 1 Jonh 3:9

Not at all.
The new life is constantly under assault, and the falsely repentant will fall.
It is our reactions to temptations that determine if we are reborn, or just faking it.
Those reborn of God will always resist.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
and Ephesians 4:24.

Gotta remember that Paul is not only writing to truly converted men, but also to newbies, and to us in the future too.
Some of his writings have already been accomplished in the proven, but have not yet been heeded by the merely inquisitive.
They have yet to realize the "cost" of a true turn from sin and unto God.
Remember the parable about that tower builder on Luke 14:28-30; he didn't have what it took to complete his plan.
So too, some join the church only to find out they don't really want to commit ALL of their life to the effort.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
My second best guess would be that you see the imperatives that urge people to stop sinning are simply calls for them to be saved so that after that they won't sin any more.

I fail to see how that is different from your "first" guess.
Men are to turn to God...FROM sin!

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Can you provide the sinless perfection perspective on Scripture's instructions to Christians to avoid sinning?

The audience of all of scripture contains a mixture of the converted and the merely interested.
Some of the teachings have already been adopted by some, but not yet, by others.
For instance...Just because a scrip' says to stop committing adultery, that doesn't mean anyone is still committing adultery.
But when an adulterer does come along, he will see that he has to change his ways...or leave.

Hope that helps...

HIM · 2025-08-16T04:33:42-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Of primary interest is the fact that a "spirit" is created when God gives birth to it. And when other Scriptures speak of this spirit, it says things like, "the spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10 NASB),

It is not a spirit; it is the Spirit of the living God.
That is a terrible translation of that text. It is life not alive. The KJV isn't perfect either, but the way translated this text is accurate.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

The definite article is definitely there.

CoreyD · 2025-08-16T08:01:03-0500

@NewLifeInChristJesus, I'll also like to point out a mistaken view that many have.
They claim that if a person who is born again sins, that person was never born again.
However, this idea suggests that God did not put his spirit on Saul 1 Samuel 10:9-12, just because Saul went from being humble, to being haughty.
It also suggests that God does not take away his spirit, after giving it. 1 Samuel 16:14-16
Both of these suggestions are unscriptural, and so too is the idea that a born again person cannot reject God's spirit, after having it.

The spirit is not some kind of sin protector that takes away a person's mind, and free will choices.
The spirit gives persons guidance, producing fruit John 16:13; Galatians 5:22, 23, but one can go against the spirit's leading, and be against God... even committing the unforgivable sin. Matthew 12:31, 32; Acts 7:51; Acts 26:14; Ephesians 4:30

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-16T08:03:30-0500

CoreyD said:
I'm not sure if I am answering your exact point, but I'll just like to point out that spiritual lives do die, and born again ones can indeed perish, as they do not have everlasting life unless they remain faithful to death... that is, physical death.
Mark 13:13; Luke 21:19; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:36, 38, 39; Revelation 2:10

You are right that there are a few verses that if read a certain way say that a person's livened spirit can end because they do not endure. But given the many Scriptures that explicity say that the spiritual lives we inherited from God last forever, wouldn't it be important for the Bible to include at least one verse that says clearly and directly without any ambiguity that there are instances where it may not be eternal?

CoreyD · 2025-08-16T08:50:01-0500

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
You are right that there are a few verses that if read a certain way say that a person's livened spirit can end because they do not endure. But given the many Scriptures that explicity say that the spiritual lives we inherited from God last forever, wouldn't it be important for the Bible to include at least one verse that says clearly and directly without any ambiguity that there are instances where it may not be eternal?

Are nine verses too few?
How many would make it valid, and why do you say, if read a certain way?
Can you please explain how else they should be read, to say otherwise, and can you please provide those scriptures that "explicitly say that the spiritual lives we inherited from God last forever"? Since a person might say you are reading those scriptures "a certain way".
Would you accept that, since context can make a difference in how a scripture is to be understood?

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-16T08:51:18-0500

Hoping2 said:
Ask away !

Are we ever instructed to do the impossible ?
Not at all !

Correct.
The old man, "flesh", prior affections, and lusts, have all been crucified.
Temptations can be resisted after rebirth from God's seed.
Further sin manifests one never truly repented of sin or was reborn of God's seed...as we can only bring forth the 'fruit' of our Progenitor.

Not at all.
The new life is constantly under assault, and the falsely repentant will fall.
It is our reactions to temptations that determine if we are reborn, or just faking it.
Those reborn of God will always resist.

Gotta remember that Paul is not only writing to truly converted men, but also to newbies, and to us in the future too.
Some of his writings have already been accomplished in the proven, but have not yet been heeded by the merely inquisitive.
They have yet to realize the "cost" of a true turn from sin and unto God.
Remember the parable about that tower builder on Luke 14:28-30; he didn't have what it took to complete his plan.
So too, some join the church only to find out they don't really want to commit ALL of their life to the effort.

I fail to see how that is different from your "first" guess.
Men are to turn to God...FROM sin!

The audience of all of scripture contains a mixture of the converted and the merely interested.
Some of the teachings have already been adopted by some, but not yet, by others.
For instance...Just because a scrip' says to stop committing adultery, that doesn't mean anyone is still committing adultery.
But when an adulterer does come along, he will see that he has to change his ways...or leave.

Hope that helps...

Yes, it helps. No other sinless perfection advocate has ever admitted to me strait out that they are sinleesly perfect nor has anyone taken the time to answer direct questions about it. So I appreciate that.

But I wonder if two things you mentioned are common sinless perfection beliefs or are they just localized views...

Speaking of sinners who claim to be Christians, you said, "They have yet to realize the 'cost' of a true turn from sin and unto God" and "some join the church only to find out they don't really want to commit ALL of their life to the effort." This sounds like salvation is seen as a reward for good behavior instead of a reward for contrition and humility before God.
Speaking of truly saved Christians, you said, "The new life is constantly under assault", "Temptations can be resisted after rebirth from God's seed" and "we can only bring forth the 'fruit' of our Progenitor". There seems to be an inconsistency here in that God can't be tempted by evil and you say the progeny only reflect the attributes of their Father yet you say directly that the new life is constantly under attack by evil. Furthermore, James' instruction on temptation makes it clear that a person is tempted when "he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed" (Jas 1:14). This certainly is not true of God, and presumably not His offspring.

Taken together, these two things make sinless perfection seem to be nothing more than another form of legalistism. Legalistic people work hard for their salvation, are deceived about their own faults, and condemn other people.

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-16T09:32:16-0500

CoreyD said:
Are nine verses too few?
How many would make it valid, and why do you say, if read a certain way?
Can you please explain how else they should be read, to say otherwise, and can you please provide those scriptures that "explicitly say that the spiritual lives we inherited from God last forever"? Since a person might say you are reading those scriptures "a certain way".
Would you accept that, since context makes a difference in how a scripture is to be understood?

Well, my point was that there are many verses that say explicitly that the second life, the spiritual one obtained from Jesus, lasts forever. One is John 3:16. It says a person who gets "everlasting life" will never perish. Another one is John 10:28. It says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish". Both these verses (and there are others) speak directly to the spirtual life that Jesus gives a person, are qualified with adjectives that indicate they are lives without end, and are further qualified by other statements that eliminate the possibility of "perishing".

One of BDAG's lexical entries for "ζωή" (see above) indicates people can forfeit their ζωή (the spiritual one, not their physical one) and "are excluded from the life of glory". Having no Biblical instances where the word "ζωή" in that context, they listed a reference from one of the early apostolic fathers that said, "But as many as will not repent have lost their life" [The Apostolic Fathers in English (R. Brannan, trans.). (2012). Lexham Press.] This certainly indicated that the Shepherd of Hermas thought eternal life could be forfieted. But it is not evidence that Scripture supports the idea. I do not know of a verse that says life, spiritual life, eternal life can be forfeited or lost. If so, this would contradict the the statements above that it is eternal and will never perish.

On your request to explain the correct rendering of the verses you referenced, I will take the easiest one (for expediency's sake).

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,

And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith;

But if anyone draws back,

My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb 10:35–39)

Whatever these verses are saying (and I can explain that also but for brevity will pass for now), verse 39 makes it clear that "we", that is born again people who have rested all their weight on Christ, are not the ones who "draw back to perdition". We are the ones who's trust in Christ has resulted in Him saving our souls from hell.

NewLifeInChristJesus · 2025-08-16T10:04:43-0500

HIM said:
It is not a spirit; it is the Spirit of the living God.
That is a terrible translation of that text. It is life not alive. The KJV isn't perfect either, but the way translated this text is accurate.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

The definite article is definitely there.

Yes, I noticed that NKJV has "Spirit is life" and NASB has "spirit is alive". This says there is some disagreement on the translation. To me, the NKJV makes less sense because God's life is not is not due to righteousness. Life is inherent to Him (John 5:26, et. al.). The NKJV rendering also does not make it verty clear that the verse is talking about the contrast between the death we have because of the sinfulness of the flesh and the life we have because of the righteousness of the spirit. The NASB renders this contrast more obviously. But even the NKJV points to this indirectly because our righteous spirits are truly righteous (and holy) by virtue of the fact that we have been "joined to the Lord" and are "one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17). And the obvious parallelism between "the flesh" and "the spirit" should quell one's impulse to capitalize "spirit" just because of the definite article (see 1 Corinthians 2:11a).

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