I anticipate Trump pulling ANY aid for Ukraine when Zelenskyy inevitably rejects Trump's farcical 'deal'.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2025

First - Trump agreeing with Putin to swap ANY Ukrainian territory for peace is illegal under the Ukrainian constitution. It's also illegal under international law. Is his NPD so explosive these days that his staff are too timid to explain these overly-complex things for a guy that has obviously not read a book in his adult life?

Two - why does he love Putin so much? He's been cranky lately because Putin made him look bad. There was no peace with one phone call - no peace on day one. It hurt his fragile NPD - so of course he had to rant on "Untruth social".

Three - I can only conclude he's looking forward to the drama of a rematch with Zelenskyy when all this inevitably explodes - and will have an almighty NPD attack and pull all aid to Ukraine.

Four - if Trump valued NATO and democracy and freedom - he would not have shamed the USA with his Oval Office shakedown of Ukraine and Zelenskyy earlier this year.
But Trump does not respect the rule of law, outright acted confused when asked if a President should defend the American Constitution - and so of course has an ambivalent attitude to international law.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2025

(staff edit)

Ukraine does not really ha e higher concentrations of actual rare earths or critical minerals than the USA. Generally rare earths are misnamed. They're all over the world, but in very small ppm.
You have to dig up a garbage bin of dirt, put it in a big bubbling vat of chemicals for aal few months, and then you're lucky to get a teaspoon or two end product! And then what do you do with all that leftover toxic sludge?

No wonder China produce them cheaper - they don't have the environmental OR health and safety laws we have - and just sacrifice the health of millions who work in these refining areas.

Vambram · Aug 13, 2025

eclipsenow said:
First - Trump agreeing with Putin to swap ANY Ukrainian territory for peace is illegal under the Ukrainian constitution. It's also illegal under international law. Is his NPD so explosive these days that his staff are too timid to explain these overly-complex things for a guy that has obviously not read a book in his adult life?

Two - why does he love Putin so much? He's been cranky lately because Putin made him look bad. There was no peace with one phone call - no peace on day one. It hurt his fragile NPD - so of course he had to rant on "Untruth social".

Three - I can only conclude he's looking forward to the drama of a rematch with Zelenskyy when all this inevitably explodes - and will have an almighty NPD attack and pull all aid to Ukraine.

Four - if Trump valued NATO and democracy and freedom - he would not have shamed the USA with his Oval Office shakedown of Ukraine and Zelenskyy earlier this year.
But Trump does not respect the rule of law, outright acted confused when asked if a President should defend the American Constitution - and so of course has an ambivalent attitude to international law.

Each and every one of your anti-Trump statements are absolutely 100% incorrect.

What is your solution about the Russia & Ukraine war which Ukraine is clearly losing? Please remember that a diplomatic solution needs to be one that both nations would accept.

mark46 · Aug 13, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Ukraine does not really ha e higher concentrations of actual rare earths or critical minerals than the USA. .

We need many potential sources of rare earths if we don't want total dependence on China.

We might understand better if we went back to the 70's and considered our dependence on OPEC oil. We needed oil and energy from whever we could get it.
=========
Yes, we should develop rare earth mining in the US. We should increase investment in Australia. I would add Canada instead of Ukraine, but that's me. However, trump's strategy of insisting on rare earth contracts with Ukraine and with the disputed Dombas makes sense.

mark46 · Aug 13, 2025

Vambram said:
Each and every one of your anti-Trump statements are absolutely 100% incorrect.

What is your solution about the Russia & Ukraine war which Ukraine is clearly losing? Please remember that a diplomatic solution needs to be one that both nations would accept.

Yes, if Europe doesn't give Ukraine weapons allowing attacks on Russian bases, Russia will continue "winning" and having to import soldiers and workers from North Korea (a country that is indeed benefitting from this war).

Ukraine is fighting on its own territory fighting against a very weak Russia. Ukraine needs is reliable allies and weapons. Of course, the allies and the US might do much more to restrict Russian access to money from energy sales and by freezing more Russian bank accounts. Trump is starting to force the issue by pressuring Europe to buy more energy from the US. [Again, a closer relationship with Canada would help a lot. Canada could produce more, export more to the US, and we could therefore have more to send to Europe.]

I guess I am silly to want the Trump to operate in the interests of the US (and even in the interests of his Arab friends) instead of continuing his personal war with the Canadian people (and their former leaders). We need to isolate Russia.

mark46 · Aug 13, 2025

As an aside, India will be a major loser in the current trade war.

We can't afford to put more pressure on China or on Turkey. Moving away from India is sustainable. Trump's team has already moved much closer to Pakistan in recent months.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2025

Vambram said:
Each and every one of your anti-Trump statements are absolutely 100% incorrect.

Big bold assertion there. Want to bother showing how you reached that conclusion? As they used to say in maths, "Show your workings "

Vambram said:
What is your solution about the Russia & Ukraine war which Ukraine is clearly losing?

We'll get to that once you do the above

Vambram said:
Please remember that a diplomatic solution needs to be one that both nations would accept.

Um, I don't know how to point this out - but that's my argument - not yours.

Vambram · Aug 13, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Big bold assertion there. Want to bother showing how you reached that conclusion? As they used to say in maths, "Show your workings "

We'll get to that once you do the above

Um, I don't know how to point this out - but that's my argument - not yours.

The diplomatic solution is ending the war as soon as possible without any more people dying. That's exactly what President Trump has been trying to do. That is my position. What is yours?

mark46 · Aug 13, 2025

Vambram said:
The diplomatic solution is ending the war as soon as possible without any more people dying. That's exactly what President Trump has been trying to do. That is my position. What is yours?

Yes, Trump wants to end the fighting. However, he has no concern with regard to how much he gives Russia or with regard to the future security of Ukraine,,
=================
For me, this is much better:
End the fighting with future security for Ukraine guaranteed by the European countries.
=================
We (that is, Congress) can look at next steps after Trump fails yet again to end the war in 24 hours. We'll see if he tightens sanctions, imposes secondary sanctions (especially on India), and most importantly, sells better weapons to Europe immediately (for use by Ukraine in attacking Russian bases).
=========
We know how this ends if a major European power is allowed to take more and more land by force from its neighbors. This is not the first Russian land grab and won't be the last. The great thing (compared to the Middle East) is that the West has our proxy fighting instead of using NATO troops.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2025

Vambram said:
The diplomatic solution is ending the war as soon as possible

Ah - but it's not going to happen because ... Putin ... right?

Giving Putin even a fraction of what he wants is like rewarding Hamas with THEIR own state. That's different to the UN group of the UK, Canda, Australia and France that want to recognise a Palestinian state led by a reorganised Palestinian Authority that recognises Israel's right to exist. But Trump's stance to Putin is equivalent is to going into Gaza and rewarding HAMAS themselves for attacking Israel!

Imagine Israel signing up to that?

Vambram said:
without any more people dying.

Glib. Ignores the real world.
Putin ... right?
Illegal unjustified invasion ... right?
Consistent with past statements and mini-wars where he gradually creeps Russian influence across neighbouring states - right?
And Trump wants to reward him with a mini-victory! GREAT JOB! What could possibly go wrong?

Vambram said:
That's exactly what President Trump has been trying to do.

Come on - this guy just wants to be the grand 'deal maker' - it's his NPD not any concern for anyone else.

Vambram said:
That is my position. What is yours?

Defend democracy.
Defend the idea of democracy.
Defend the idea of a democratic club of nations.
Defend freedom.
Halt tyranny!

Don't talk down NATO!
Don't threaten to pull out in some emotional tantrum - or on some silly whim on the campaign trail!
Don't threaten the image of the invulnerable unity of the world's largest military alliance in history!

In this case...
Don't let Vladimir take ANY more land!
Give Ukraine everything they need - without putting NATO troops on the ground.
We are wearing Russia down.
Ukraine were a former Soviet vassal state - now they're our democratic friends.
They're shedding THEIR blood to hold the line against an expansionist former KGB officer.
We should be thanking them - not spanking their leader for not grovelling pitifully at the feet of a former real estate conman and convicted felon!

wing2000 · Aug 13, 2025

"We're goint to Russia.......what happens, happens."

It seems Trump has already ceded territory in his mind -- U.S. territory.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2025

wing2000 said:
"We're goint to Russia.......what happens, happens."

It seems Trump has already ceded territory in his mind -- U.S. territory.

Oh my word he's looking old. The waffle is getting worse.

He's congratulating himself on how much he thinks the world needs HIM! (And not maybe the near $1 trillion military threat the entire USA brings to bear?) His NPD is in full FEEDING MODE - sucking down that narcissistic supply as he congratulates himself on deals he has not done, and largely imaginary domestic problems that are not actually his to solve. He LOVES it.

Yet it's all to distract from Epstein.

Vambram · Aug 13, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Ah - but it's not going to happen because ... Putin ... right?

Giving Putin even a fraction of what he wants is like rewarding Hamas with THEIR own state. That's different to the UN group of the UK, Canda, Australia and France that want to recognise a Palestinian state led by a reorganised Palestinian Authority that recognises Israel's right to exist. But Trump's stance to Putin is equivalent is to going into Gaza and rewarding HAMAS themselves for attacking Israel!

Imagine Israel signing up to that?

Glib. Ignores the real world.
Putin ... right?
Illegal unjustified invasion ... right?
Consistent with past statements and mini-wars where he gradually creeps Russian influence across neighbouring states - right?
And Trump wants to reward him with a mini-victory! GREAT JOB! What could possibly go wrong?

Come on - this guy just wants to be the grand 'deal maker' - it's his NPD not any concern for anyone else.

Defend democracy.
Defend the idea of democracy.
Defend the idea of a democratic club of nations.
Defend freedom.
Halt tyranny!

Don't talk down NATO!
Don't threaten to pull out in some emotional tantrum - or on some silly whim on the campaign trail!
Don't threaten the image of the invulnerable unity of the world's largest military alliance in history!

In this case...
Don't let Vladimir take ANY more land!
Give Ukraine everything they need - without putting NATO troops on the ground.
We are wearing Russia down.
Ukraine were a former Soviet vassal state - now they're our democratic friends.
They're shedding THEIR blood to hold the line against an expansionist former KGB officer.
We should be thanking them - not spanking their leader for not grovelling pitifully at the feet of a former real estate conman and convicted felon!

In my opinion, it appears that your solution would bring about either a forever war, OR possibly WWIII.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2025

Vambram said:
In my opinion, it appears that your solution would bring about either a forever war, OR possibly WWIII.

First - what about Palestine?

Are you consistent?

Do you want peace for Gazan civilians?
I support recognising the Palestinian State - as long as Hamas have nothing to do with it.

Second, Russia's feeling it.

SOLDIERS
They've lost 165k to Ukraine's maybe 46k? Estimates vary, but Russia's losing over 3.5 times as many soldiers as Ukraine - as Ukraine fights on the home advantage and has enjoyed better kit (from the west).

KIT
Their drone warfare exacts an even greater disparity in economic damage to the enemy's incoming military hardware. When 2 Russian drones worth $1000 total can destroy a $3.5 MILLION Russian TANK - that's got to hurt!

WORKERS
For starters - maybe a million Russians have fled the country rather than be conscripted - or do another deadly tour if they survived the first one!
They are now starting to import thousands of North Korean workers to do other basic jobs in the economy.

ECONOMIC DISTORTION - BUT LONGER TERM DANGER OF DISTORTION
Russia's whole economy is basically war kit and oil. They're buying almost everything else in from China.
That is not sustainable for the long term - people are getting war weary and this could put pressure on Putin's leadership.

This scaling up into a full war machine HAS other risks though.

If Putin is not toppled soon, all their old kit will have been burned through (as they basically convert their oil into weapons hardware) and they'll have a whole bunch of new tanks and kit and supply chains that actually work now. (The start of this war was a debacle for them as half their stuff wasn't 'real' - it had been stolen or embezzled and was on paper only.)

INCENTIVE
If we don't pool resources and help Ukraine fight for their freedom - Putin might take a Trump deal as a break to regroup and prepare for further invasions towards NATO countries. THAT overconfidence if we DO give into this tyrant really does risk WW3!

TARIFF
The ONE tariff I might support America putting on the world (if it were actually run by a democratic debate in Congress the way it used to be!) would be on those nations that buy Russian oil and prop up their wartime economy.

NOT WORTH IT
I don't think Putin wants this little edge of Ukraine bad enough to die under five thousand suns and then starve to death in a decade of dark.

RISK OF WW3?
How many Proxie wars have the USA been in with communist powers since they invented the bomb a lifetime ago? I asked CHAT for a summary:

1. Korean War (1950–1953)

North Korea invaded South Korea.
The U.S., alongside United Nations allies, supported South Korea.
North Korea was backed by the Soviet Union, and later China (both nuclear powers by then).
Bomberbot student-notes.net usahistorytimeline.com Encyclopedia Britannica

2. Vietnam War (1955–1975)

North Vietnam, backed by the Soviet Union and China, fought to unify the country under communism.
South Vietnam was supported primarily by the U.S.
This war was emblematic of Cold War proxy conflicts.
Bomberbot Compact Histories SpringerLink

3. Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)

A protracted conflict with strong proxy involvement:
- Soviet Union and Cuba supported the MPLA (Marxist-Leninist) faction.
- United States and South Africa backed UNITA and other anti-communist groups.
  Bomberbot Wikipedia

4. Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989)

The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan to support its communist government.
The U.S., through initiatives like Operation Cyclone, covertly supported the Mujahideen insurgents (also aided by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others).
Was a key arena of U.S.–Soviet Cold War competition.
Bomberbot Wikipedia SpringerLink

5. Other Notable Proxy Conflicts Involving Nuclear Superpowers

Several lesser-known yet significant instances include:

Greek Civil War (1946–1949)
- The U.S. and UK backed the anti-communist Greek government.
- The Soviet Union had limited involvement in support of communist insurgents.
  The Civil War Wikipedia
Other regional conflicts where both superpowers had a hand—but often less directly—include:
- Laos, Congo, Ethiopia, and the Ogaden War (Ethiopia vs. Somalia in the late 1970s), where the U.S. and Soviet Union supported opposing sides.
  warhistoryonline

Yarddog · Aug 14, 2025

Vambram said:
Each and every one of your anti-Trump statements are absolutely 100% incorrect.

What is your solution about the Russia & Ukraine war which Ukraine is clearly losing? Please remember that a diplomatic solution needs to be one that both nations would accept.

The only real solution is for the invading country pull out and return stolen land.

eclipsenow · Aug 14, 2025

From what I've been reading, it sounds like Putin wants to tempt Trump with expansive trade bribes.

Will Trump fall to temptation and betray the western alliance of democratic nations for cash?

I genuinely don't know. His language has been frustration with Putin lately, because Putin was making him look bad. If he comes out of there barracking for tyranny again... I wonder how Trump supporters here will react ?

Will their loyalty be to a short term pause while Putin thanks Trump for being gullible and easily played, and builds strength for the next European invasion after Trump's fone? Or will it be to long term peace and security of democratic nations - and actually calling out their MAGA leader for betraying freedom?

Or - if Trump does the right thing and decides to back NATOs support of Ukraine for the long hall - will MAGAs here be consistent and call him out for it? Or will they just flip to my position in this thread without batting an eye lid and claim it was right all along?

Do MAGA have any backbone on any issues or just automatically praise Trump whatever?

It seems both Trump and MAGA will be judged by the outcome.

Vambram · Aug 14, 2025

eclipsenow said:
From what I've been reading, it sounds like Putin wants to tempt Trump with expansive trade bribes.

Will Trump fall to temptation and betray the western alliance of democratic nations for cash?

I genuinely don't know. His language has been frustration with Putin lately, because Putin was making him look bad. If he comes out of there barracking for tyranny again... I wonder how Trump supporters here will react ?

Will their loyalty be to a short term pause while Putin thanks Trump for being gullible and easily played, and builds strength for the next European invasion after Trump's fone? Or will it be to long term peace and security of democratic nations - and actually calling out their MAGA leader for betraying freedom?

Or - if Trump does the right thing and decides to back NATOs support of Ukraine for the long hall - will MAGAs here be consistent and call him out for it? Or will they just flip to my position in this thread without batting an eye lid and claim it was right all along?

Do MAGA have any backbone on any issues or just automatically praise Trump whatever?

It seems both Trump and MAGA will be judged by the outcome.

Does NATO actually want to have a war with Russia over Ukraine?

Vambram · Aug 14, 2025

Yarddog said:
The only real solution is for the invading country pull out and return stolen land.

I wish that would happen, really I do. However, Russia is winning this war against Ukraine. Do we believe that Russia is going to withdraw from all the conquered Ukrainian lands?

rebornfree · Aug 14, 2025

Yarddog said:
The only real solution is for the invading country pull out and return stolen land.

Yes, or the invading country's populace to overturn their leadership and give back the captured lands.

Vambram said:
Does NATO actually want to have a war with Russia over Ukraine?

I think the question is: 'Do they have a moral reponsibility to protect a democracy from unsolicited aggression?' A secondary one might be: 'Would it be wise to show the aggressor that they cannot just take what they want, particularly if their own member countries could be vulnerable to attacks from that aggressor?'

eclipsenow · Aug 14, 2025

Vambram said:
Does NATO actually want to have a war with Russia over Ukraine?

Why should I answer you if you do not answer me?
Let's try this again.

1. What about Palestine? Are you consistent?

Do you want peace for Gazan civilians?
I support recognising the Palestinian State - as long as Hamas have nothing to do with it.

2. How long do you feel Russia can keep this up?

SOLDIERS
They've lost 165k to Ukraine's maybe 46k? Estimates vary, but Russia's losing over 3.5 times as many soldiers as Ukraine - as Ukraine fights on the home advantage and has enjoyed better kit (from the west).

KIT
Their drone warfare exacts an even greater disparity in economic damage to the enemy's incoming military hardware. When 2 Russian drones worth $1000 total can destroy a $3.5 MILLION Russian TANK - that's got to hurt!

WORKERS
For starters - maybe a million Russians have fled the country rather than be conscripted - or do another deadly tour if they survived the first one!
They are now starting to import thousands of North Korean workers to do other basic jobs in the economy.

ECONOMIC DISTORTION - BUT LONGER TERM DANGER OF DISTORTION
Russia's whole economy is basically war kit and oil. They're buying almost everything else in from China.
That is not sustainable for the long term - people are getting war weary and this could put pressure on Putin's leadership.

This scaling up into a full war machine HAS other risks though.

If Putin is not toppled soon, all their old kit will have been burned through (as they basically convert their oil into weapons hardware) and they'll have a whole bunch of new tanks and kit and supply chains that actually work now. (The start of this war was a debacle for them as half their stuff wasn't 'real' - it had been stolen or embezzled and was on paper only.)

INCENTIVE
If we don't pool resources and help Ukraine fight for their freedom - Putin might take a Trump deal as a break to regroup and prepare for further invasions towards NATO countries. THAT overconfidence if we DO give into this tyrant really does risk WW3!

TARIFF
The ONE tariff I might support America putting on the world (if it were actually run by a democratic debate in Congress the way it used to be!) would be on those nations that buy Russian oil and prop up their wartime economy.

3. Why do you think Russia would want to die under five thousand suns and then starve to death in a decade of dark over a tiny chunk of land in Ukraine? Why do you think THIS piece of land is different to all the other Proxie wars America has engaged in?

How many Proxie wars have the USA been in with communist powers since they invented the bomb a lifetime ago? I asked CHAT for a summary:

1. Korean War (1950–1953)

North Korea invaded South Korea.
The U.S., alongside United Nations allies, supported South Korea.
North Korea was backed by the Soviet Union, and later China (both nuclear powers by then).
Bomberbot student-notes.net usahistorytimeline.com Encyclopedia Britannica

2. Vietnam War (1955–1975)

North Vietnam, backed by the Soviet Union and China, fought to unify the country under communism.
South Vietnam was supported primarily by the U.S.
This war was emblematic of Cold War proxy conflicts.
Bomberbot Compact Histories SpringerLink

3. Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)

A protracted conflict with strong proxy involvement:
- Soviet Union and Cuba supported the MPLA (Marxist-Leninist) faction.
- United States and South Africa backed UNITA and other anti-communist groups.
  Bomberbot Wikipedia

4. Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989)

The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan to support its communist government.
The U.S., through initiatives like Operation Cyclone, covertly supported the Mujahideen insurgents (also aided by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others).
Was a key arena of U.S.–Soviet Cold War competition.
Bomberbot Wikipedia SpringerLink

5. Other Notable Proxy Conflicts Involving Nuclear Superpowers

Several lesser-known yet significant instances include:

Greek Civil War (1946–1949)
- The U.S. and UK backed the anti-communist Greek government.
- The Soviet Union had limited involvement in support of communist insurgents.
  The Civil War Wikipedia
Other regional conflicts where both superpowers had a hand—but often less directly—include:
- Laos, Congo, Ethiopia, and the Ogaden War (Ethiopia vs. Somalia in the late 1970s), where the U.S. and Soviet Union supported opposing sides.
  warhistoryonline

I anticipate Trump pulling ANY aid for Ukraine when Zelenskyy inevitably rejects Trump's farcical 'deal'.

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative

Well-Known Member

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Well-Known Member

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

E pluribus unum

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

First - what about Palestine?​

Are you consistent?​

Second, Russia's feeling it.​

1. Korean War (1950–1953)​

2. Vietnam War (1955–1975)​

3. Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)​

4. Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989)​

5. Other Notable Proxy Conflicts Involving Nuclear Superpowers​

Senior Contributor

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative

Senior Veteran

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

​

1. What about Palestine? Are you consistent?​

2. How long do you feel Russia can keep this up?​

3. Why do you think Russia would want to die under five thousand suns and then starve to death in a decade of dark over a tiny chunk of land in Ukraine? Why do you think THIS piece of land is different to all the other Proxie wars America has engaged in?​

1. Korean War (1950–1953)​

2. Vietnam War (1955–1975)​

3. Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)​

4. Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989)​

5. Other Notable Proxy Conflicts Involving Nuclear Superpowers​

4. Do you believe surrendering territory to Putin will stop him invading other European areas after a few years to rebuild?​

5. Do you believe this enough to publicly disagree with Trump if he comes around to my way of thinking?​

Similar threads

First - what about Palestine?

Are you consistent?

Second, Russia's feeling it.

1. Korean War (1950–1953)

2. Vietnam War (1955–1975)

3. Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)

4. Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989)

5. Other Notable Proxy Conflicts Involving Nuclear Superpowers

1. What about Palestine? Are you consistent?

2. How long do you feel Russia can keep this up?

3. Why do you think Russia would want to die under five thousand suns and then starve to death in a decade of dark over a tiny chunk of land in Ukraine? Why do you think THIS piece of land is different to all the other Proxie wars America has engaged in?

1. Korean War (1950–1953)

2. Vietnam War (1955–1975)

3. Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)

4. Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989)

5. Other Notable Proxy Conflicts Involving Nuclear Superpowers

4. Do you believe surrendering territory to Putin will stop him invading other European areas after a few years to rebuild?

5. Do you believe this enough to publicly disagree with Trump if he comes around to my way of thinking?