El Salvador Ends Term Limits, Letting President Bukele Seek Re-Election Indefinitely

Pommer · Tuesday at 12:14 AM

ozso said:
Some people confuse authoritative, as in strong leader, with despot.

The Venn diagram would be rather egg shaped, yes.

linux.poet · Tuesday at 1:27 AM

I’m reminded of the difference between Yemen and Oman.

Democracy is only is as good as the quality of the electorate, and a republic is only as good as it’s representatives. Sometimes, when the people of a state cannot behave enough to be responsible voters, an benevolent authoritarian regime can serve the task of character reform.

Nithavela · Tuesday at 3:46 AM

ozso said:
Some people confuse authoritative, as in strong leader, with despot.

There's a difference between authorative and authoritarian.

The difference is that authorative person set boundaries, but also offer support and cooperation, while authoritarians enforce the same boundaries through fear and punishment.

Bukele is pretty obviously the latter, and gets feted for it by many people on this forum.

ozso · Tuesday at 4:13 AM

Nithavela said:
There's a difference between authorative and authoritarian.

The difference is that authorative person set boundaries, but also offer support and cooperation, while authoritarians enforce the same boundaries through fear and punishment.

Bukele is pretty obviously the latter, and gets feted for it by many people on this forum.

Some people denounce any politician who doesn't represent passive liberalism.

Nithavela · Tuesday at 6:13 AM

ozso said:
Some people denounce any politician who doesn't represent passive liberalism.

Bukele may have made El Salvador more secure, but also much less free.

I think there's a quote by a famous american politician about trading in liberty for security.

ozso · Tuesday at 6:19 AM

Nithavela said:
Bukele may have made El Salvador more secure, but also much less free.

I think there's a quote by a famous american politician about trading in liberty for security.

Less free in what ways?

wing2000 · Tuesday at 6:22 AM

ozso said:
Authoritarian leadership seems to get better results than lackadaisical leadership. We've seen how poorly lackadaisical leadership played out in El Salvador, and how poorly it plays out in the parts of the US run by lackadaisical leaders. The removal of term limits doesn't mean the removal of voting. It just means the people don't have to lose a really good leader because their few years are up. They can keep approving them to stay in office.

ozso said:
Some people denounce any politician who doesn't represent passive liberalism.

I thought "conservatives" supported term limits. Do you?

GoldenBoy89 · Tuesday at 7:19 AM

ozso said:
Some people denounce any politician who doesn't represent passive liberalism.

And others seem to have the hots for every tin pot dictator promising to enforce their unpopular worldview.

ViaCrucis · Tuesday at 7:34 AM

ozso said:
Some people confuse authoritative, as in strong leader, with despot.

An authoritarian is not a "strong leader".

My pastor is a strong leader, he's gentle, soft-spoken, kind, welcoming, cares about his congregation, and every Sunday serves his duty as a servant of Word and Sacrament. And so that gentle strength of being a faithful shepherd of Christ's flock makes him a strong, capable, and good leader in the Church.

My pastor is not an authoritarian. Lutheranism doesn't operate with authoritarian leaders, that would never be tolerated in any Lutheran synod. Regardless of synod/denomination, the Lutheran tradition doesn't tolerate authoritarian-style or autocratic leaders. Good, healthy, strong servant-leaders, well that's a positive; pastors have authority, but it is authority derived from the Church, not authority over the Church. The Church of Jesus Christ has only one Master, Lord, and Head--and it's Jesus Christ. He is the True and Good Shepherd. Pastors, called and ordained by the Church, and thus receiving their authority from the Church, are under-shepherds of the Shepherd, they are servants, not masters.

Strong leadership is not authoritarianism.

And Jesus Christ says as much,
"But Jesus called [His disciples] to Him and said, 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.'" - Matthew 20:25-28

Lording over others--being an authoritarian--is not strong leadership, it certainly isn't good leadership. That's what evil kings and tyrants--"the rulers of the Gentiles"--do, and that should not be the model of leadership which Christ's people should emulate, the people of Christ are to emulate Him, who came not to be served but to serve. While the immediate application is ecclesiological; the principle of good leadership from a Christian POV remains the same: Good leaders do not lord over, they serve.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Tuesday at 7:36 AM

linux.poet said:
Sometimes, when the people of a state cannot behave enough to be responsible voters, an benevolent authoritarian regime can serve the task of character reform.

The excuse of every tyrant.

No thanks.

No tyrants. Ever.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Tuesday at 7:39 AM

wing2000 said:
I thought "conservatives" supported term limits. Do you?

Conservatives do. While I don't identify as conservative, I still feel reasonably confident in this statement.

I don't think this has much to do with conservatism anymore though. There are other isms at play.

-CryptoLutheran

GoldenBoy89 · Tuesday at 7:41 AM

wing2000 said:
I thought "conservatives" supported term limits. Do you?

They’re going to support whatever Donald Trump tells them to support and they will stop supporting whatever Donald Trump tells them to.

That’s been the pattern for 10 years now.

ozso · Tuesday at 8:16 AM

ViaCrucis said:
An authoritarian is not a "strong leader".

My pastor is a strong leader, he's gentle, soft-spoken, kind, welcoming, cares about his congregation, and every Sunday serves his duty as a servant of Word and Sacrament. And so that gentle strength of being a faithful shepherd of Christ's flock makes him a strong, capable, and good leader in the Church.

My pastor is not an authoritarian. Lutheranism doesn't operate with authoritarian leaders, that would never be tolerated in any Lutheran synod. Regardless of synod/denomination, the Lutheran tradition doesn't tolerate authoritarian-style or autocratic leaders. Good, healthy, strong servant-leaders, well that's a positive; pastors have authority, but it is authority derived from the Church, not authority over the Church. The Church of Jesus Christ has only one Master, Lord, and Head--and it's Jesus Christ. He is the True and Good Shepherd. Pastors, called and ordained by the Church, and thus receiving their authority from the Church, are under-shepherds of the Shepherd, they are servants, not masters.

Strong leadership is not authoritarianism.

And Jesus Christ says as much,
"But Jesus called [His disciples] to Him and said, 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.'" - Matthew 20:25-28

Lording over others--being an authoritarian--is not strong leadership, it certainly isn't good leadership. That's what evil kings and tyrants--"the rulers of the Gentiles"--do, and that should not be the model of leadership which Christ's people should emulate, the people of Christ are to emulate Him, who came not to be served but to serve. While the immediate application is ecclesiological; the principle of good leadership from a Christian POV remains the same: Good leaders do not lord over, they serve.

-CryptoLutheran

I said authoritative.

ViaCrucis · Tuesday at 8:19 AM

ozso said:
I said authoritative.

I assumed that was a typo.

But apparently you were just moving the goal posts.

-CryptoLutheran

ozso · Tuesday at 8:45 AM

ViaCrucis said:
I assumed that was a typo.

But apparently you were just moving the goal posts.

-CryptoLutheran

I was talking to someone else about those who confuse an authoritive leader with an authoritarian.

wing2000 · Tuesday at 9:29 AM

ViaCrucis said:
Conservatives do. While I don't identify as conservative, I still feel reasonably confident in this statement.

I don't think this has much to do with conservatism anymore though. There are other isms at play.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you.

I notice Ozso has chosen not to answer the question.

Nithavela · Tuesday at 10:16 AM

ozso said:
Less free in what ways?

Press freedom.

El Salvador

Reporters sans frontières assure la promotion et la défense de la liberté d'informer et d'être informé partout dans le monde. L'organisation, basée à Paris, compte des bureaux à l'international (Berlin, Bruxelles, Genève, Madrid, Stockholm, Tripoli, Tunis, Vienne et Washington DC) et plus de 150...

rsf.org

Freedom of expression.

El Salvador: New Laws Threaten Free Expression, Privacy

El Salvador’s recently approved cybersecurity and data protection laws contain sweeping provisions that threaten media freedom and privacy rights, Human Rights Watch said today.

www.hrw.org

Economic freedom.

Index of Economic Freedom: El Salvador | The Heritage Foundation

Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 31st edition illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage

www.heritage.org

To name a few.

linux.poet · Tuesday at 12:39 PM

ViaCrucis said:
The excuse of every tyrant.

No thanks.

I agree, someone who is just claiming that should not be trusted. They need to have actions that prove their benevolence on behalf of their people, as the leaders of Oman have done.

Fortunately, El Salvador is not Oman and is a representative democracy. These people voted these changes on themselves. To the outside world, these changes look bad, but maybe we don’t understand what they are going through? Do they not have the right to choose leadership and make decisions in their own interest?

Perhaps they don’t understand what is best for themselves, but maybe we should give them the freedom to learn what they need to?

Hans Blaster · Tuesday at 12:54 PM

linux.poet said:
Democracy is only is as good as the quality of the electorate, and a republic is only as good as it’s representatives.

And statements like the one below demonstrate how broken ours is.

linux.poet said:
Sometimes, when the people of a state cannot behave enough to be responsible voters, an benevolent authoritarian regime can serve the task of character reform.

This statement does not represent a respect for democracy.

durangodawood · Tuesday at 12:59 PM

People, mainly on the right, appear to be losing interest in America as a republic.

El Salvador Ends Term Limits, Letting President Bukele Seek Re-Election Indefinitely

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