Was ordinary and natural family a threat ?

stevevw · Saturday at 4:15 AM

peter2 said:
I believe it's mentionned somewhere in the Scriptures that a time would come when men will call the evil good, and vice versa.
May be we are in these times. I 'm consequently a bit fatalistic

Sorry, however fortunate looks the perspective, i remain wary. As catholic, i wonder how worldly is our clergy, so i wouldn't be confident in giving it carte blanche. I don't know about other confessions, but i think they may find worldly spirit in most

Fair enough and I can understand the skepticism considering their track record.

But I think we need to destinguish between the scriptures and the teachings laid down by Christ and His disciples and the abuses of those teachings.

I liken it to Rule of Law or justice. These are the truth principles laid down for which we can measure peoples behaviour. But that bad behaviour of those acting in positions of authority in applying those truths does not deminish the truth of those principles.

I think much of the skepticism of voters towards politicians is because they breach these principles which are above personal opinions. Even more so with Christs and the disciples teachings. They are the foundation principles for how Christ church is setup and to also give a clear basis for defending the faith.

As Paul mentions that any alternative doctrine based on personal or group opinions, beliefs, ideaologies, myths or norms that differs from the one that Christ and then Paul also taught on Christ behalf is accursed.

peter2 · Saturday at 4:49 AM

stevevw said:
Fair enough and I can understand the skepticism considering their track record.

But I think we need to destinguish between the scriptures and the teachings laid down by Christ and His disciples and the abuses of those teachings.

I liken it to Rule of Law or justice. These are the truth principles laid down for which we can measure peoples behaviour. But that bad behaviour of those acting in positions of authority in applying those truths does not deminish the truth of those principles.

I think much of the skepticism of voters towards politicians is because they breach these principles which are above personal opinions. Even more so with Christs and the disciples teachings. They are the foundation principles for how Christ church is setup and to also give a clear basis for defending the faith.

As Paul mentions that any alternative doctrine based on personal or group opinions, beliefs, ideaologies, myths or norms that differs from the one that Christ and then Paul also taught on Christ behalf is accursed.

So you suggest we should have a religion that lord over peoples, right ?
But if yes, i don't see to whom i could give my trust but Christ.
For he 's suffered for our sake, up to death

stevevw · Saturday at 7:41 AM

peter2 said:
So you suggest we should have a religion that lord over peoples, right ?
But if yes, i don't see to whom i could give my trust but Christ.
For he 's suffered for our sake, up to death

No I don't thonk the scriptures tell us we should lord over anyone. Especially overseers. Paul mentions in 1 Peter 5: 1-4 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock

If you notice Paul is saying the authority does not come from himself. But as an ambassador for Christ. It would be like a messenger or representative specially appointed by the King to send a message to another King or leader.

The representative carries the wprds and message of the King with the Kings authority. Based on the appointment of that representative by the King himself.

Clement in the 70s AD and Ignatius in 107AD mentions this specifically when they speak about the special authority of the overseer over the church as appointed by Christ just as Paul says

Chapter 6. Have respect to the bishop as to Christ Himself
Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24:45 as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Chapter 44. The Ordinances of the Apostles, that There Might Be No Contention Respecting the Priestly Office.
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

The overseer is not looked upon as God or Christ in divinity but the authority given to be an ambassador for Christ and to make appeals on His behalf to the church is Christs authority for which the overseer represents. Thus this is not any ordinary representation in the church.

At the same time the church is the reference. If the overseer is not qualified and not aligned with Christ then the people know the difference. So its the unity of mind and spirit in Christs truth that qualifies each other and will expose falsehoods.

I think its a divine balance. Like the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church and gives Himself in sacrificial love and is subject and obeys His father. Both need to be in union for it to work.

peter2 · Saturday at 8:42 AM

stevevw said:
If you notice Paul is saying the authority does not come from himself. But as an ambassador for Christ. It would be like a messenger or representative specially appointed by the King to send a message to another King or leader.

The representative carries the wprds and message of the King with the Kings authority. Based on the appointment of that representative by the King himself.

looks pretty cool to me

stevevw said:
Clement in the 70s AD and Ignatius in 107AD mentions this specifically when they speak about the special authority of the overseer over the church as appointed by Christ just as Paul says

i will go to bed less ignorant this evening

stevevw said:
The overseer is not looked upon as God or Christ in divinity but the authority given to be an ambassador for Christ and to make appeals on His behalf to the church is Christs authority for which the overseer represents. Thus this is not any ordinary representation in the church.

At the same time the church is the reference. If the overseer is not qualified and not aligned with Christ then the people know the difference. So its the unity of mind and spirit in Christs truth that qualifies each other and will expose falsehoods.

I think its a divine balance. Like the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church and gives Himself in sacrificial love and is subject and obeys His father. Both need to be in union for it to work.

All that looks harmonious, i must admit.
How, however, do you make the unity of mind and spirit in Christ occur, in order to "control" the overseer's authority. Through the church ?

peter2 · Saturday at 8:46 AM

stevevw said:
I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings

This passage of Paul seems important to me, for Christ is the only one to know truly the price for our salvation, as regards sufferings.
Witnesses of these sufferings might do as well

com7fy8 · Saturday at 10:00 AM

peter2 said:
So you suggest we should have a religion that lord over peoples, right ?

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

We need "examples" who can feed us their example of all that God's word means, in our families >

"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not give to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);" (1 Timothy 3:1-5)

So . . . it looks to me like God is saying the family is the basic model of how "a bishop" is to rule the church. He learns at home, how to take care of people in our Father's family caring and sharing way. And then this is how he cares for the children of God of Jesus Christ's church . . . ruling in our Father's family way. And, yes, Hebrews 13:17 does say our leaders rule >

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)

So, yes the man rules, at home, and those approved by Jesus rule Jesus Christ's church . . . but not as "lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples". So they rule, by example.

"Therefore, Satan will have counterfeits, to make this look bad."

com7fy8 · Saturday at 10:29 AM

com7fy8 said:
"Therefore, Satan will have counterfeits, to make this look bad."

This is like what I think you, Steve, mean >

stevevw said:
I think this imprint has been seen throughout history but especially with the Hebrews and early Christians where the father was the head of the family. I think this authority was necessarily and part of Gods order. Just like Christ made Himself subject to His Father and obeyed Him.

But modern ideas have undermined this as oppression. Though there may be some justification that this Godly family has been abused this doesn't I think change the structure God has placed within His order for us.

We have the order; so Satan has developed fake stuff to make ruling look like oppression.

I read how a woman said she had gone along with being ruled by her husband, and it was slavery for her. But Jesus plainly says He desires cheerful obedience; so she was wrong, right from the start. She was not obeying cheerfully. And then she was complaining, after she herself helped to make it the wrong way.

"Serve the LORD with gladness," we have in Psalm 100:2.

Another item > make sure you marry a really Christian person, so you can do things the way God means His word. He does not mean slavery and being bossed while you are holding a grudge for doing what you are told to do. Or else, if you are holding a grudge, you are not obeying.

And it is possible people have not made sure with God, about whom they marry.

Ones can leave God out of how they select the person they marry. And ones even claim that God expects them to make choices by themselves. And so they are avoiding being constantly submissive to God in His peace. And so they end up without peace.

So, in order to have God's way of family . . . first I need to become submissive to Jesus so He is guiding me in my choice making and in how I relate with other people. Then I can guided to the right person for marriage, then guided in how I relate with the person. And this is all in submission to Jesus, then, not me taking anything into my own hands >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5 :7)

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, with God in us guiding our willing and doing, we discover how He takes us along in marriage.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Mathew 11:29)

So, then, Jesus deeply satisfies us with His rest, while He has us doing whatever He means by His word. He teaches us how to be submissive but also creative

peter2 · Saturday at 11:44 AM

com7fy8 said:
"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

We need "examples" who can feed us their example of all that God's word means, in our families >

Yes, with this perspective, it looks rational

com7fy8 said:
"Therefore, Satan will have counterfeits, to make this look bad."

Alas, i must confess i must be a bit worldly, for i 'm not sure i would be happy with this repartition of roles. Hope it's not satanic, but my ideal of spousal relationship is far from any dictating of the will. It'd rather be the daily sacrifice that would please my wife, and reciprocally her sacrifice for me. So, you see, instead of the dictating, a kind of mutual and consented belonging

stevevw · Saturday at 9:45 PM

peter2 said:
looks pretty cool to me

i will go to bed less ignorant this evening

All that looks harmonious, i must admit.
How, however, do you make the unity of mind and spirit in Christ occur, in order to "control" the overseer's authority. Through the church ?

Yes, the unity in mind and spirit is just as much a check and balance I think fo the overseer as it is for the members or the church. This is the good fruit that the church is in good health they they have unity.

I think its Clement that mentions that division no matter what it is is the beginning of evil. So when you see division then Christ is either not there or is being deminished and if this continues they will lose Christ in that church.

Either way. If the bishop is not aligned with Christ and the teachings or the members do the same then one way or another its bad fruit that needs to be sorted out.

Paul gives teaching about this. We know he mentions many times about the authority of the overseer when members are sinning or promoting false teachings. But he also says that even if an overseer is teaching false ideas or sinning that two or more members can bring this to the attention of the church.

But notice it has to be two or more as Paul also realises there are false accussers. But I think basically its Christs authority based on His own words and teachings that will be used to unite the church.

peter2 · Sunday at 6:45 AM

stevevw said:
Yes, the unity in mind and spirit is just as much a check and balance I think fo the overseer as it is for the members or the church. This is the good fruit that the church is in good health they they have unity.

Hello Steve.
i remain skeptical. There too many different kinds of people, families, etc..

stevevw said:
its Clement that mentions that division no matter what it is is the beginning of evil. So when you see division then Christ is either not there or is being deminished and if this continues they will lose Christ in that church.

You can see division is already a reality. How do you make a church with divided people ?
Or, how do you choose people that deserve being of its member and the others (i assume there's a selection) ?

Shouldn't we wait for that day Jesus speaks of in Lk 17, 31-35 ?

stevevw · Sunday at 5:39 PM

peter2 said:
Hello Steve.
i remain skeptical. There too many different kinds of people, families, etc..

I am not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate.

peter2 said:
You can see division is already a reality. How do you make a church with divided people ?

I guess the division has gradually developed due to churches moving away from Christs truth. It makes sense that the further we have moved away from Christ and the disciples the more the church has drifted away.

We see this for example with the Reformation and how this led to splits by creating denominations based on disagreements over interpretations of scripture into what we have today.

The rise of relativisim in a postmodern society which allows questioning the truth of scriptures to the point that it actually undermines scriptures. I look at the divisions in the church like the divisions in secular society such as in the culture wars where society has been divided into ideological groups that are pitted against each other.

This cultural phenomena has crept into many churches and we can see how they have become not too different to the world. Whereas I think if we are true to Christ then His church should be pretty consistent throughout history on the teachings and therefore would be in conflict with todays culture and not embracing it.

peter2 said:
Or, how do you choose people that deserve being of its member and the others (i assume there's a selection) ?

Shouldn't we wait for that day Jesus speaks of in Lk 17, 31-35 ?

I think all the teachings for the churh are within the scriptures. Especially Paul who gives instructions about the sin and false teachings that come into the church. For example

Acts 20:28-29
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

Romans 16:17,“Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, tthat you keep away from any brother vwho is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

1 Timothy 5:19–20
Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

I think we are to expose and rebuke sin and false teachings in the church if it is causing division and harm to the church community. That is the job of the overseers as a good shepherd. But we all should be as well.

As far as the ultimate judgement of others that is Gods. BUt that doesn't mean we should not stop the wolves as this is what Paul was concerned about after he was gone and advised Timothy to continue to guard against the wolves to protect the church.

But the problem is for some churches is that they have allowed compromise of the teachings by allowing alternative ideas that the world teaches. So its deeply ingrained and hard to expose. Because part of the compromise is the idea that Christs truth can have multiple interpretations in the first place and no one should question anyone.

com7fy8 · Monday at 7:42 PM

peter2 said:
Hope it's not satanic, but my ideal of spousal relationship is far from any dictating of the will.

I do not think a wife submitting to her man is meant . . . by God . . . to be dictatorial. For a leader we have >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, in case He does mean for the man to "rule", He does not mean dictating. It says it needs to be like how Jesus loves and rules the church. So . . . how does Jesus rule us? Not like a dictator; but He proves Himself, has taken to lead with His own example, and gives us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-29) while we are submitting to Him.

And Jesus does better with us, than how we . . . men or women . . . would do. So, we clearly do not want what the man is capable of dictating.

And this "better" way can be how you choose to do things in your marriage . . . better than anyone legalistic might try to dictate for us to do.

stevevw · Monday at 9:02 PM

As far as the husband being head of the wife this is scriptural and reflects Christ the groom and His bride church. Both the husband and wife are to follow the teachings if the marriage is to work.

The husband is to love his wife as Christ loves and gave His life for the church. He is to put his wife above himself in sacrifical love.

So each are sumitting but in different ways as far as the relationship of Christ and the church. But as the husband is head he leads and protects his wife and family. Just as the overseer and shepherd leads and protects the church and as Christ leads and protects us all.

I think only then can the Body be unified in Christ. Any variation will be an imbalance from Gods ideal.

stevevw · Tuesday at 5:53 AM

peter2 said:
This passage of Paul seems important to me, for Christ is the only one to know truly the price for our salvation, as regards sufferings.
Witnesses of these sufferings might do as well

Yes I think so back then as I could imagine if an event like Christ happened say 5 years ago or however long it was for Paul. But also his personal encounter with Christ. If this happened and we would have heard about it from many sources. It would be a powerful testiment to the followers.

I could imagine the next generation also benefiting which for us today would have been around 30 years ago. Even going back within a 100 years we would still have a powerful testimony from many claiming to be a witness or knowing a witness.

Remembeing that this was a different world and without 2000 years of philosophising. I think if it happened today people would say it was fake news or a magic trick lol.

Its like the further we move away from an event like WW2 and the Jews the more people forget and rationalise it away. Thats why they have a Remberence Day. A bit like the breaking of bread I think.

peter2 · Tuesday at 12:16 PM

com7fy8 said:
I do not think a wife submitting to her man is meant . . . by God . . . to be dictatorial. For a leader we have >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, in case He does mean for the man to "rule", He does not mean dictating. It says it needs to be like how Jesus loves and rules the church. So . . . how does Jesus rule us? Not like a dictator; but He proves Himself, has taken to lead with His own example, and gives us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-29) while we are submitting to Him.

And Jesus does better with us, than how we . . . men or women . . . would do. So, we clearly do not want what the man is capable of dictating.

And this "better" way can be how you choose to do things in your marriage . . . better than anyone legalistic might try to dictate for us to do.

Hello Bill.
i think your sayings are right, but is this clearly written in the Scriptures or said by God ? The doubt induces me into being cautious

peter2 · Tuesday at 12:46 PM

Hello Steve. Sorry for my being late

stevevw said:
I am not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate.

I meant if you deal with individuals, it's easier than with families.
Besides, do you think, were people interested in joining such a church like this you describe, they will easily abandon their familial background, if the latter is not conform with what is required to enter it ?

stevevw said:
I guess the division has gradually developed due to churches moving away from Christs truth. It makes sense that the further we have moved away from Christ and the disciples the more the church has drifted away.

i don't know.. May be

stevevw said:
But the problem is for some churches is that they have allowed compromise of the teachings by allowing alternative ideas that the world teaches. So its deeply ingrained and hard to expose. Because part of the compromise is the idea that Christs truth can have multiple interpretations in the first place and no one should question anyone.

Yes precisely. People are used to think by themselves. But.. Couldn't this state of things bear good fruit as well ? Doesn't God look for adorator in truth ?

stevevw said:
Its like the further we move away from an event like WW2 and the Jews the more people forget and rationalise it away. Thats why they have a Remberence Day. A bit like the breaking of bread I think.

Not sure whether the remembrance must alone be aimed at. Shouldn't we focus on the intensity of the sorrow consented and suffered by Jesus, since this underlines how much he loves us (the quantity of love and commitment towards us) ?

stevevw · Tuesday at 9:22 PM

peter2 said:
Hello Steve. Sorry for my being late

Thats ok.

peter2 said:
I meant if you deal with individuals, it's easier than with families.
Besides, do you think, were people interested in joining such a church like this you describe, they will easily abandon their familial background, if the latter is not conform with what is required to enter it ?

From what I understand the early church was family orientated. The family was a well established unit and usually if for example the parent was saved the whole family became saved.

Certainly if a Christian were to marry they should marry a Christian as Paul mentions not to be unequally yolked to a non Christian in marriage. But I guess if an individual was saved and their family not then they must also stay with that family and hope they are also saved.

peter2 said:
i don't know.. May be

I think so. When you consider the early church was universal. Paul and Clement were writing to distant churches with the same teachings. But today we have 101 denominations with different beliefs and interpretations and see each other as 'the other' denomination there is division and disunity which is not of Christ.

peter2 said:
Yes precisely. People are used to think by themselves. But.. Couldn't this state of things bear good fruit as well ? Doesn't God look for adorator in truth ?

Yes I agree. I think enlightenment was good in that it allowed people and churches to question and investigate the bible rather than be dictated to. But like many good things they can be used to dismiss the truth as well.

Thats why I think now more than ever we need to be sure about the teachings and expose when this is denied. I definitely think there are more wolves in the church today than in the early church because people were constantly reminded to stay true to the teachings.

But centuries of questioning and rationalisats opposing the teachings and offering alternative interpretations have muddied the waters as to what is truth and what is a manipulation of the truth. Especially when modern ideologies are used to justify the alternative interpretations because they are presented as nobel and the right thing to do.

peter2 said:
Not sure whether the remembrance must alone be aimed at. Shouldn't we focus on the intensity of the sorrow consented and suffered by Jesus, since this underlines how much he loves us (the quantity of love and commitment towards us) ?

I see for example the breaking of bread in the Eucharist as a form of rememberance. I could imagine say 1 week or a month after Christ the they were breaking bread just as Christ said in memory of Him. This single act I think puts the believer in communion with Christs act of suffering for us by sacrificing His body and blood.

While at the same time bringing the church into the heart of Christs sacrifice and the new covenant He made with us. In fact the breaking of bread would have been the main part of worship with perhpas prayer and praising and the reading of the Torah and any new testament writings or oral testimony that were available.

Apart from worship it seems the church besides preahing the gospel was mainly concerned about looking after their own first. We hear a complaint that the church was not looking after the widows for example. Or to look after your own family first.

It seemed as though the church was seperate and insular to the surrounding culture. Paul and the disciples warning and trying to keep them seperate from the world.

But also to help the poor and I think many people came to the churches as they were seen as different to the hostile pagan world. Especially women who were well looked after byu the chuch. Many Gentiles were called God fearers and they attracted to Christianity and would come to the synagogues.

peter2 · 2025-08-13T04:38:32-0500

stevevw said:
Thats why I think now more than ever we need to be sure about the teachings and expose when this is denied. I definitely think there are more wolves in the church today than in the early church because people were constantly reminded to stay true to the teachings.

There are likely some tares surrounding the wheat each time some wheat is seeded.
i feel this like the tare counterfeiting the wheat, as soon as it may, in order to catch attention and perform satan's or wolves plans against sheep

stevevw said:
While at the same time bringing the church into the heart of Christs sacrifice and the new covenant He made with us. In fact the breaking of bread would have been the main part of worship with perhpas prayer and praising and the reading of the Torah and any new testament writings or oral testimony that were available.

Yes exactly. What i meant is i feel a lack of depth in the contemplation of Jesus love, through his willing sacrifice, even while celebrating. Spread unbeliefs have trivialised this sacrifice, the depth of men's sinning that made it necessary, and how much unaware or merely unthankful men remain.
Unbelief is responsible for a lot of forgetting

stevevw · 2025-08-13T05:38:30-0500

peter2 said:
There are likely some tares surrounding the wheat each time some wheat is seeded.
i feel this like the tare counterfeiting the wheat, as soon as it may, in order to catch attention and perform satan's or wolves plans against sheep

I think theres an aweful lot of weeds at the moment that its hard to tell the wheat from the tares. So the church community becomes a little pocket of fertile ground to come to and re-enforce the faith before going back into the world.

Thats why at least in the church community we should be vigelant in identifying the weeds growing among the faithful and weed them out to preserve our little piece of unity and fellowship in this world. Like a refuge where we can belong to with like minded and spirited people. To remind us and reprove us if and when we may stray.

peter2 said:
Yes exactly. What i meant is i feel a lack of depth in the contemplation of Jesus love, through his willing sacrifice, even while celebrating. Spread unbeliefs have trivialised this sacrifice, the depth of men's sinning that made it necessary, and how much unaware or merely unthankful men remain.
Unbelief is responsible for a lot of forgetting

The bible says that once again the world will become like before the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ said that the wolves would devour even the elect and that we will be persecuted for standing with Christ.

I think we are moving nearer rather than further from this truth as the world around Christs church becomes more powerful. But I think this is when Christians work the best and will be called to live the depth of Christs love themselves. This will bring Christ back as a living example in those who stand up for him and stay true..

peter2 · 2025-08-13T07:50:30-0500

stevevw said:
I think theres an aweful lot of weeds at the moment that its hard to tell the wheat from the tares. So the church community becomes a little pocket of fertile ground to come to and re-enforce the faith before going back into the world.

May you be right

stevevw said:
The bible says that once again the world will become like before the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ said that the wolves would devour even the elect and that we will be persecuted for standing with Christ.

Looks like that. I also see that like a struggle for celebrity. Desorder makers (wolves) try to teach desorder to wise and young people, because they want to become evildoers icons, persons to follow suit in their evildoing, whereas wise people stand quiet, and try to be examples for sheep, lost ones or not

stevevw said:
I think we are moving nearer rather than further from this truth as the world around Christs church becomes more powerful. But I think this is when Christians work the best and will be called to live the depth of Christs love themselves. This will bring Christ back as a living example in those who stand up for him and stay true..

Thank you for this perspective full of hope.
Yes, sometimes, such ideas come to my mind, like a polarization of humanity

Was ordinary and natural family a threat ?

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