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Spanish Inquisiton

Amo2

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And yet you know next to nothing about the Orthodox Church.
I'm sorry if that offends you. History is of course a very deep subject, of which there is undoubtedly a lot more than just Orthodoxy, I have not focussed my studies upon. Perhaps, there simply is not as much recorded history concerning abuses committed by Orthodoxy, to address. As my studies have admittedly centered around the teachings of holy scripture, in relation to authentic Holy Spirit empowered biblical Christianity, as opposed to Imperially or state imposed and most often abusive "Christianity". My intent being the defense of the former over and above the latter. Such being unavoidably centered around the conflicts between Catholic authorities of the past, and contemporary bible believers and Protestants.

Nevertheless, I would greatly appreciate any input from those of Orthodoxy, concerning their involvement in these histories being discussed, and or separate from them. Please do help educate all regarding such histories. As they are pertinent to the topic at hand, and or Christianity altogether.
 
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Amo2

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The problem is the materials you have used for your research consisted of anti-Roman Catholic polemics, rather than peer-reviewed material such as the many books I have advised you to consult.

Peer-reviewed by who? Who'se peers? I run into the same argument in creation or evolution debates. As though the peer reviewed opinions of faith based deep time evolutionary pushing "scientists" so called, mean anything to me. I find such faith to be absurd. Built upon faulty presumptions presented as scientific fact, when they absolutely are not. As I find many claims on this board in reference to the Roman Catholic church, its persecution, and it being the true source of holy scripture and its preservation, to be absurd as well. Which is of course, why I am addressing Roman Catholicism more than Orthodoxy. Apart of course from issues in which apparently Orthodoxy agrees with Roman Catholicism, as being addressed here. As is the case regarding the creation and evolution controversies as well, we simply place our faiths in different sources.
Also, in those 45 years, did you read any books about the persecuted Christians of the East, such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrians? Because you keep referring to events that mainly concerned the Orthodox in an anti-Roman Catholic polemical style.

Do you understand we are neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant, but have been persecuted by both? Our churches were never under the control of the Pope of Rome. Thus when it comes to issues like the Spanish Inquisition, we who were also victims of related persecution (see St. Peter the Aleut, a 15 year old Aleutian Orthodox boy who like the other Aleutians and many Native Alaskans was evangelized was evangelized by the Russian Orthodox Church starting with the mission of St. Herman in the 17th century) who on a routine fishing trip that took him down the West Coast, had the misfortune of encountering the Mission Indians, and being arrested by the Spanish authorities and executed as a heretic) have no vested interest in downplaying the severity of the Inquisition.

But we do have an interest in the Truth, our Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Logos (Reason, Logic, Word) and the numbers you are claiming are inaccurate and unreasonable (alogoi).

Please do share the many accounts no doubt of such persecutions as you have described above. You will not find me on the side of Protestant or Catholic persecutors, as both have been guilty of this great injustice. Such of course will not be conducive toward establishing the very low number of victims claimed on this thread which I am contesting, to the contrary only adding greater numbers supporting my position. To withhold such information now of course, would seem to be exercising the exact bias you are accusing me of. Would it not.

I say the very low numbers you and others are claiming, are inaccurate and unreasonable. Especially regarding the testimonies of so many others, only a few of which I have yet shared on this thread. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between. Nevertheless, there are great disparities and inconsistencies in separate accounts, both sides of which should certainly be heard for all to decide upon. Certainly no persecution, abuse, torture, murder, and so on and so forth, is acceptable authentic biblically Christian behavior. I'm sure we both agree upon this. State imposed or cleverly manipulated censorship of uncomfortable history, is not a New Testament or Covenant teaching or practice. Defending the truth , by exposing what is false is. If early unpopular Christianity bowed to the dictates of popular or shall we say peer-reviewed opinions of the day, we of course would not be having this conversation today.

Which is not to say the people who wrote them down were intentionally lying. In the case of Ellen G. White, she was regarded as a prophet, but I’m not sure if she was aware of the existence of the Orthodox, and her anti-Catholic polemics set the tone for subsequent Adventist polemics, as well as conspiracy theories about the Roman church plotting to ban worship on Saturday in the US, when in recent years Blue Laws protecting Sunday have unfortunately been falling by the wayside, and public schools increasingly schedule youth sports practice for Sunday mornings, which excludes many devout Christian youth from these activities.
Interesting that you would bring up Ellen G. White. As I certainly have not, nor quoted anything form her on this thread. EGW got the history she shared from the very numerous volumes of Protestant or otherwise historians of and up to her day. The writings of which as I have begun to address on this thread, have been systematically removed from public view and consideration with exact intent and purpose. With many revisionist forms of history intended to take their place. The bible itself was removed from our public schools by largely Roman Catholic sentiments and action, not to mention many history books as well, which addressed uncomfortable histories for our ever growing population of Roman Catholics. Not by way of conversions, but by way of one mass immigration of them, after another, after another. Which continues to this very day. A good bit of the history of which, I have not yet shared.

As far as your assertions regarding the issue of Sunday laws, I have a great deal to say. Far too much to address on this thread, without changing the subject altogether. Another thread, in due time will be required for such an undertaking. Suffice it to say here and now, that the attitude of the Roman Catholic church toward Sabbath or Sunday worship has bee clearly revealed throughout history, and the duty of every Catholic to seek to establish Sunday sacredness by law within their lands is clearly addressed in their Catechism.

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :

"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

The following is from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107]
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work

2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

IN BRIEF

2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 # 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 # 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.

Sunday laws have in fact been on the rise in many places over the last few decades. They have never gone away, and are here to stay, even more prominently in the future as predicted. There have literally been hundreds if not thousands of them established wide since the time of Constantine. They are still an issue, and being reinstated in many places. I will begin another thread to address this exact issue in much greater detail.
 
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Amo2

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Let's take the first sentence of your first example from post #298.


Who specifically in the Catholic Church came to such an alleged discovery? When? What documentation supports this allegation? I see no footnote. If the author has no documentation, where did the author get the idea? How does the author reconcile this serious claim with the previous numerous Catholic translations of Biblical text into various common languages of the people? How does the author reconcile the numerous Catholics from monasteries who memorized long portions of the Bible and went out and spread the Gospel to the people? Realize that before the printing press few people were literate, and starting with Catholic Gutenberg printing his first book--the Bible, huge numbers of Bibles were printed for the people. And before the printing press Bibles were extremely expensive, so it would have been a rare exception for a layman to own a Bible. As has been explained, the Catholic Church is and has been against people altering God's Word, or putting their own personal anti-Catholic teachings within the bindings of a Bible, much as I'm sure Protestants would not welcome anti-Protestant statements within their Bibles. This is far different than banning people from reading the Bible because the Church could not "could not endure the light of an open Bible." Let's see what documentation you present.
I have already supplied you with more than just a few examples. Your church produced a list of forbidden books, that is without question. People including Catholic's who decided to have and or share such books in disagreement with the Churches list or advice faced serious penalties up to and including a torturous death by fire. Entire nations within which the Roman Catholic faith was the mandated religion with the approval of Catholic hierarchy, were commanded not to have any but Catholic approved bibles, period. Printers were also commanded not to print any bibles or other materials they did not approve of, period. These are facts. Your denomination took a position of authority over countless lives, which our Lord never gave any human being authority to exercise over others. As such therefore, also verily representing antichrist. Attempting to prevent everyone from viewing, preaching, and or teaching that which contradicted their own views with the usurped power of the state, because they simply did not have the convicting power of the Holy Spirit of God to do any such thing. Which is the very root cause of every apostate form of Christianity that force or mandate their religion upon others. As God Himself has never presumed to do, nor admonished any of His followers at any time, to do.

You are of course free to ignore or claim that the many laws quoted in the histories I have shared never really existed, but this will of course not make such so. Who was the Roman Catholic church to prevent others who chose not to any longer believe many of her teachings, to forbid them from writing books and or copies of the bible with footnotes addressing that which they disagree upon? She received no power or authority from God to do such a thing.


Quoted article below from link above.

1539 - THE GREAT BIBLE (THE CHAINED BIBLE)​


In 1538, Thomas Cromwell, Vicar General and Secretary to Henry VIII, directed the clergy to provide "one book of the Bible of the largest volume in English, and the same set up in some convenient place within the said church that ye have care of, whereas your parishioners may most commodiously resort to the same and read it."

Called the "chained Bible" because it was chained to the pulpits, the Great Bible helped rekindle the desire to own a personal copy of the Word of God, and sparked a flame in the hearts of those who would later translate the Geneva Bible, the Bishop's Bible, and the King James Version.

The Great Bible, printed in 1539, is known as one of the most beautiful Bibles ever printed. At the time of the translation, two versions were already in print -- the Matthews Bible and the Coverdale Bible. Because Coverdale's Bible was not translated from the original texts, and the Matthew's Bible was under great suspicion of its origin as a Tyndale Bible, Thomas Cromwell and Archbishop Thomas Cranmer commissioned Miles Coverdale to complete a whole revision of the Bible.

Coverdale began work immediately, using the Matthew's Bible as a base, and revising where needed. By 1539, printing had started in Paris; however, the inquisition in France was on, and the printer was arrested. Rather than burning the printed pages, the French Inquisitor-General sold them as waste paper. Through shrewd management, Thomas Cromwell was able to buy the Bible pages and transport them back to England, where they finished the work.

In April of 1539, the first edition of the Great Bible appeared, also known as the "Cromwell Bible," the "Cranmer Bible,' and the "Chained Bible." Thomas Cromwell issued an injunction that a copy be set up in every church, and a reader was appointed so that even the illiterate could learn the Word of God as they desired. With this action, the Great Bible, funded by King Henry VIII, became the first Bible authorized by the government for public use.

If the Catholic church had already supplied so many bibles for the people as you and others contest, what sense does the above story, among many other similar ones no doubt make. They did not consider the proliferation of holy scripture as paramount as it absolutely is to the survival of authentic biblical Christianity. It was not their goal to provide humanity with the word of God unto salvation, over and above their own teachings unto the same. They did in fact attack, persecute and even kill professed Christians long before what most consider the Reformation to have begun, because they had the scriptures in their own languages and disagreed and even argued against the teachings of Roman Catholicism with scripture itself. These are facts of history established by many historians, the testimonies of which Roman Catholics have always rejected and continue to reject to this very day. Right here and right now, through you and others of like persuasion. Which I do contest.
 
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Amo2

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For the past 60 years, the Catholic Church has removed her influence over publications, the press, radio, education and, oh my, even the cinema! Humans are free to do as they please

Do you really like what you see in the 21st century world apart from Catholic influence?
Sounds more like Noah’s day, everyone is right in their own eyes.

Wonton sexuality, ritual blood sacrifice, blasphemers, proud, lovers of creature rather than the Creator. Great plan overthrowing that evil Catholic Church, sarcastic eye roll. Protestants have been given the helm since the founding of the United States. What have you done with it ?
You have got to be kidding me. Nothing could be further from the truth. She has wisely backed away from open censorship, but is ever more seriously involved in ownership and heavy influence upon all of the above. Another topic which will apparently have to be addressed. There is only so much I can take on, so I will probably provide other sources addressing the serious involvement of Catholicism and the Jesuits in particular regarding the same.
 
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Amo2

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Quotes below from link above. Quite a bit of Inquisition history at this link. The quotes provided are generally just the first few sentences or paragraphs of more in depth testimonies.

Inquisition against the Cathars of the Languedoc​


The Inquisition set up in the Languedoc was not the first Inquisition set up by the Roman Church. Bishops' Inquisitions had existed for centuries, but being local, never had the impact of later Papal Inquisitions. The Inquisition which is the subject of this page was the Medieval Inquisition, established informally by Dominican under Pope Innocent III in the early thirteenth century and formalised by later popes.

The more widely known Spanish Inquisition was set up around two centuries later by their Catholic Majesties Ferdinand (of Aragon) and Isabella (of Castile). In later centuries another Papal Inquisition would be created to exterminate Protestant ideas in Southern Europe. Like the Spanish Inquisition, it would follow the practices of the original medieval Inquisition in the Languedoc - the one we are talking about here.

The express purpose of this original medieval Inquisition was to discover and eliminate vestiges of Cathar belief left in the wake of the Cathar Crusades. During the crusades, ordinances had been passed which imposed new penalties for heresy. After the death of Innocent III in 1216 Honorius sanctioned Dominic Guzman's new religious order, popularly known as the Dominicans after Dominic. The Dominicans in turn created the first formal Inquisition. In 1233 the next pope, Gregory IX, charged the Dominican Inquisition with the final solution: the absolute extirpation of the Cathars. Soon the Franciscans would join in too, but it is Dominic Guzman (St Dominic) and his followers who have left the legacy of bitterness that endures in the Languedoc into the third millennium.

By the end of the fourteenth century Catharism had been virtually extirpated...............................................

Many of the techniques developed by the Medieval Inquisition were picked up and used by later totalitarian regimes and police states. Among them are the creation of racial and religious ghettos; the forcible wearing of "badges of shame"; formalised propaganda and forgery; spying; seizure of property, threats, false promises, intimidation and torture; and disregard for what has long been regarded as natural justice.

It is difficult to find any technique of modern totalitarianism that was not pioneered by the Medieval Inquisition, right down to the good cop / bad cop routine; physical restraint; the separation of families; sexual humiliation; the use of agents provocateurs and listening tubes; false promises of leniency; and softening up new victims using psychological techniques such as leaving them for weeks, cold and hungry, isolated in cells within hearing distance of the torture chamber. Even water boarding was used.............................................


Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers.​


The old Episcopal Inquisition continued in parallel with the new Papal Inquisition, so co-operative bishops were able to work hand-in-hand with papal Inquisitors. One notable example was Jacques Fournier, Bishop of Pamiers.

Jacques Fournier a Cistercian monk became Abbot of Fontfroide Abbey. In 1317 he became Bishop of Pamiers. He undertook a rigorous hunt for Cathar believers, which won him praise from Catholic authorities, but alienated local people. He was an exceptional Inquisitor. Uniquely "Monsignor Jacques" was interested in what had really happened, not just in obtaining convictions. He kept detailed records of his interrogations and managed to have them preserved to provide a treasure trove for historians. He made a name for himself by his skill as an Inquisitor during the period 1318-1325. He conducted a campaign against the last remaining Cathar believers in the village of Montaillou, as well as others who questioned the Catholic faith................................................

In 1326, on the successful rooting out of what were believed to be the last Cathar adherents in the area, he was made Bishop of Mirepoix in the Ariège. A year later, in 1327, he was made a cardinal. He succeeded Pope John XXII (1316–34) as Pope in 1334, being elected on the first conclave ballot. His election as pope accounts for the fact that even a small proportion of his records survived into modern times since they were transferred to the Papal Archives...............


Bernard Delicieux​


Pretty much the only Catholic churchman to have emerged from the whole of the Cathar period with any integrity (as measured by modern secular standards) was a Franciscan friar called Bernard Delicieux.

Delicieux came from Montpellier, not then part of France.

He noted with some justification that there was no way of establishing one's innocence: "... if St. Peter and St. Paul were accused of 'adoring' heretics and were prosecuted after the fashion of the Inquisition, there would be no defence open for them."
Delicieux was involved in the case of Castel Fabre, a unique and revealing case in which a man was found not-guilty by the Inquisition. It is revealing in that the only reason that a defence could be mounted was that another arm of the Church stood to lose if a guilty verdict were returned. The facts of the case were that the Dominicanswere trying to disinherit Castel's heirs on the grounds that he had been a Cathar - unlikely since he had been buried in a convent. The Franciscans had evidence that he had left his worldly goods to them - again suggesting that he had not been a Cathar at all. If he was guilty then the Dominicans would get the goods. If he were innocent the Franciscans would get them. These unusual circumstances provided a unique opportunity for a genuine trial based on evidence - itself an interesting fact in that it showed that the Church new full well what a properly conducted trial looked like.....................

The Medieval Inquisition - Pope Gregory IX​

A roving papal Inquisition had been set up in 1231 by Pope Gregory IX. He extended existing legislation against heretics and introduced the death penalty for them – indeed for anyone who dissented from his views. Initially intended to be temporary, this Inquisition was used to extirpate surviving Cathars in the Languedoc. Anyone accused or ‘defamed’ was treated as guilty, and no one once defamed got off without some punishment. After 1227 Inquisitorial commissions were granted only to the friars, usually to the Dominicans. The Inquisition was now the ‘Dominican Inquisition’. Dominic Guzmán’s threats of slavery and death for the citizens of the Languedoc were fulfilled for a second time. First the massacres, now the Inquisition..............................

The Knights Templar​

The trial of the Knights Templar demonstrates how unjust the Inquisition could be. The charges of heresy against them were almost certainly fabricated. No real evidence was ever produced to support the accusations. The best that could be managed was hearsay evidence such as that of a priest (William de la Forde) who had heard from another priest (Patrick de Ripon) that a Templar had once told him, under the inviolable seal of confession, about some rather improbable goings on.

Inquisitors obtained the most damning evidence through the use of torture. In countries where torture was not permitted, the Templars denied the charges, however badly they were otherwise treated and however long they were imprisoned. As soon as torture was applied the required confessions materialised. Inquisitors refused to attach their seals to depositions unless they included confessions, so that only one side of the case appeared in official records. In France, where torture was applied freely, there were many confessions, and also many deaths under torture. Accused persons who retracted their confessions faced death at the stake as relapsed heretics.............................

The Spanish Inquisition​

The Medieval Inquisition was established in Barcelona in 1233. Five years later its authority was extended to Castile, Leon and Navarre. This was essentially an extension of the Inquisition established to extirpate the remnants of Catharism. Over 200 years later another inquisition was to appear : the Spanish Inquisition. Their Roman Catholic Majesties, Ferdinand and Isabella, established it in 1479, with the explicit sanction of Pope Sixtus IV, who in 1483 also confirmed the Dominican friar Thomas de Torquemada as Grand Inquisitor for Aragon and Castile. The Inquisition was initially directed against Jewish and Muslim converts who were suspected of returning to their own religion, and thus being guilty of apostasy. (Many had converted to Christianity only under threat of death.)

The process was much the same as that of the Medieval Inquisition, and indeed was deliberately modelled on it. It too was manned mainly by Dominicans. They copied the methods of arrest, trial, punishment, staffing, and procedure, even down to the blessing of the instruments of torture..............................................

The Roman Inquisition



The Roman Inquisition, more correctly the Congregation of the Inquisition, was set up in 1542 by Pope Paul III to help eradicate Protestantism from Italy. It was composed of cardinals, one of whom had proposed its establishment in the first place. He later became Pope himself, taking the name Paul IV. A keen opponent of the free exchange of ideas, he enjoys the distinction of having put even his own writings on the Index.

Procedures of the Roman Inquisition were no more just than those of earlier inquisitions, and executions became more common than in Spain. Freethinkers and scientists were added to the existing categories of victim for torture and execution. It was this inquisition that was responsible for burning the foremost philosopher of the Italian Renaissance, Giordano Bruno, in 1600; and for inducing the foremost scientist, Galileo, to recant under the threat of torture ............
 
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Amo2

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Quote below from link above, where all estimates may be viewed.

ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER KILLED BY THE PAPACY IN THE MIDDLE AGES AND LATER

David A. Plaisted

© 2006

Contents


INTRODUCTION.............................................................................1

CHAPTER 1. Examples of Figures Concerning the Number Killed 3

CHAPTER 2. The Plausibility of Massive Persecution..................19

CHAPTER 3. The 50 Million Figure..............................................32

CHAPTER 4. The Spanish Inquisition............................................77

CHAPTER 5. Aletheia’s Estimate...................................................88

CHAPTER 6. An Estimate Based on Population Growth.............105

CHAPTER 7. Indirect Evidence of Persecution............................112

CHAPTER 8. Cloistered Convents................................................119

CHAPTER 9. Wars........................................................................134

CHAPTER 10. Conclusion............................................................138

CHCoG Comments........................................................................140

REFERENCES..............................................................................144

This Edition Corrected and Reset by

Central Highlands Congregation of God

Released 1 January, 2023

Revised 14 May, 2023

Published by

Central Highlands Christian Publications

PO Box 236 Creswick Vic 3363 Australia

info@chcpublications.net

chcpublications.net


INTRODUCTION

For two or three centuries, many Protestants have given figures concerning the total number of people killed directly or indirectly by the Papacy during the Middle Ages. The numbers given include 50 million, 68 million, 100 million, 120 million, and 150 million. Roman Catholics typically give much smaller numbers. Frequently the figures are stated without any information about where they came from or how they were computed. The purpose of this note is to describe where some of these figures come from and to comment on their reliability. Surely nearly all Roman Catholics as well as Protestants disapprove of past religious persecutions, so this discussion should not reflect negatively on current members of the Roman Catholic Church. However, events in Nazi Germany show how easily persecution can revive, so it is necessary to be on guard against it and maintain an awareness of its history. Of course, many other groups besides the Papacy have persecuted. And all of us, without Christ, have the roots of sin in ourselves. The reason the Papacy stands out is that it has ruled for such a long period of time over such a large area, exercised so much power, and claimed divine prerogatives for its persecutions. The magnitude of the persecutions is important for the following reason: One can perhaps excuse a few thousand cases as exceptional, but millions and millions of victims can only be the result of a systematic policy, thereby showing the harmful results of church-state unions.

In this study I have attempted, with some success, to penetrate the veil of obscurity that surrounds the Middle Ages in order to determine the true history of this period.

In order to consider this subject, it is necessary to recall many unpleasant events. The dreadful totals, computations, and examples that follow, one after another, are not for the faint hearted. These atrocities should convince us not so much of the evils of a particular religious system as of the depravity of the sinful human heart, and lead us to turn to Christ for repentance and salvation that we might have new hearts and be cleansed from sin.​
 
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You have got to be kidding me. Nothing could be further from the truth. She has wisely backed away from open censorship, but is ever more seriously involved in ownership and heavy influence upon all of the above. Another topic which will apparently have to be addressed. There is only so much I can take on, so I will probably provide other sources addressing the serious involvement of Catholicism and the Jesuits in particular regarding the same.
The Jesuits are not the Catholic Church but merely members. I agree that many actions of the Jesuits, particularly in Nicaragua were grave error. The Jesuits in the 1970s and 80s joined the communist revolution of the Sandinistas and actually had political posts in the junta. They were openly defiant of St John Paul II, who was Pope at the time.
Now the Sandinistas are persecuting and banning Catholics. So much for joining their revolution and defying their Pope

If you want a good review, read The Jesuits by Malachi Martin. It goes into great detail. Another good book for consideration is The Devil and Karl Marx by Paul Kengor. It analyzes the source of liberation theology

Foundations restored is a good video series that shows how science was hijacked by atheists and American education was stifled when the Unitarians kicked the Calvinists out of Harvard


There are a lot of things that have been proposed to be Catholic, but this is false and the faithful are fighting back


If you read current non-Catholic theory, then Catholics are communist, evolutionist, child molesters. That is what Satan wants people to think. When you search for God with all your heart, you find it is not true

Liberal Christianity in Protestant circles has the same source. It all began 400or 500 years ago by a proposal from Rene Descartes who denied miracles and stated that all the so called miracles of the Bible had a natural explanation, and that was when many in Christianity sold out to the world

It’s only now in the past 10 - 15 yrs of scientific discovery that shows how foolish that proposition was. Genesis is true and evolution the lie, but Satan in his craftiness wanted to use his plants in the Catholic Church to sell it to mankind . He had power for a time, but now the mask is coming off
 
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Valletta

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I would not be a member of a church that demanded such, and was actively involved in the censorship of materials or information, especially outside of their own denomination.
Catholics take altered versions of the Word of God very seriously. As a Catholic we defend God's Word, and we firmly believe no one should add or subtract from the Word of God. That means not adding books or subtracting books or adding or subtracting any text. Our Bible has remained the same since the Catholic Church decided upon the books in the late 300s. For scholarship purposes we compare various versions, but we strongly believe no man has authority to change God's Word. I think that if someone brought the Quran into your church and claimed it was the Word of God at least some people would object, would you really leave your religion if someone put it on a list of books not acceptable to your fellow believers?
I have already supplied you with more than just a few examples.
I have asked you specific questions about the actual sources from your examples and you have ducked the questions. It seems obvious to me you haven't bothered to find the answers. Do you want to discuss or are you just going to make endless accusations against Catholics?
 
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The Liturgist

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Quotes below from link above. Quite a bit of Inquisition history at this link. The quotes provided are generally just the first few sentences or paragraphs of more in depth testimonies.

The SDA, like the Landmark Baptists, frequently misrepresent the Cathars and what their beliefs are, and those of related groups such as the Paulicians, claiming that these groups, whose writings we have and which unmistakably fall into the emanationist tradition of salvation derived from secret knowledge, and which were in no respect crypto-Sabbatarian or crypto-Baptist (indeed quite the contrary with regards to the Consolamentum.

Now in the case of the Cathars, this does not justify what happened to them; on the contrary, I would argue that the misrepresentation of the faith of these groups along with the misrepresentation of the faith of the Waldensians and Moravians by those eager to stake a claim on those historical instances, constitutes a severe insult to the memory of those who were actually persecuted.

This is one of the two severe problems suffered by the “Trail of Blood” alternative history promoted by certain denominations, along with entire inaccuracy, which should be disqualifying.

Unfortunately these falsehoods also lead directly to people claiming that the Roman Catholic Church killed 250 million people, which is of course preposterous since it would make the RCC responsible for all premature death in Western Europe between 700 AD and 1100 AD, which is of course equally preposterous, to the point of constituting genocide denial with respect to those genocides inflicted on Christians, for example, during the Islamic conquest of North Africa and Numibia.
 
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JSRG

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Quotes below from link above. Quite a bit of Inquisition history at this link. The quotes provided are generally just the first few sentences or paragraphs of more in depth testimonies.
I have actually seem the page (and website) you cite before. I do not think it is of much worth. Indeed, the same author has another site devoted to attacking Christianity as a whole (I won't link it because it doesn't deserve attention). And he does so frequently with rather weak arguments that show a lack of research. For just one example, on a page trying to talk about bad treatment of women by Christianity, it makes the clam that the Council of Macron debated whether women had souls, which is a total myth, and not one that is hard to discover was a myth (e.g. here). So the author is highly biased against Christianity (and by extension Catholicism) and also is not very discerning in terms of accuracy. Much like the author's other site, claims on their site which you link to are generally made without citations.

Now, perhaps you were unaware of this information concerning the author that already makes them a questionable source (though it is incumbent on someone to try to verify the credentials of someone if they are going to be cited). But even if we were to disregard that, just a quick look over the page you cite shows its issues. It offers few if any sources for its various claims and is very clearly biased in its presentation. These are red flags to be skeptical of what it has to say. I can indeed immediately see an error a credible historian should not make: When talking about torture, it shows a picture of what it calls "A Pear of Anguish, or "Pope's Pear""--not only is there little evidence this was ever used as a torture device, even if it was actually used as one, it certainly wasn't in the medieval period, as well explained in a journal article here, or if one wants a condensed version as part of a general issue on the various "medieval" torture devices that were not actually a thing, see here. But the biased and apparently non-discerning author of the site you link to presumably saw it and seized upon it without doing verification. So why should I trust their other claims (many of which, from what I can determine, seem dubious) if they're going to be uncritically repeating errors like this? There is some information on the page that is accurate (if sometimes exaggerated), but why should one put particular trust in a source that there is good reason to believe is filled with exaggerations, inaccuracies, and bias? It is problematic that this is apparently your preferred source for information on this.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have actually seem the page (and website) you cite before. I do not think it is of much worth. Indeed, the same author has another site devoted to attacking Christianity as a whole (I won't link it because it doesn't deserve attention). And he does so frequently with rather weak arguments that show a lack of research. For just one example, on a page trying to talk about bad treatment of women by Christianity, it makes the clam that the Council of Macron debated whether women had souls, which is a total myth, and not one that is hard to discover was a myth. So the author is highly biased against Christianity (and by extension Catholicism) and also is not very discerning in terms of accuracy. Much like the author's other site, claims on their site which you link to are generally made without citations.

Now, perhaps you were unaware of this information concerning the author that already makes them a questionable source (though it is incumbent on someone to try to verify the credentials of someone if they are going to be cited). But even if we were to disregard that, just a quick look over the page you cite shows its issues. It offers few if any sources for its various claims and is very clearly biased in its presentation. These are red flags to be skeptical of what it has to say. I can indeed immediately see an error a credible historian should not make: When talking about torture, it shows a picture of what it calls "A Pear of Anguish, or "Pope's Pear""--not only is there little evidence this was ever used as a torture device, even if it was actually used as one, it certainly wasn't in the medieval period, as well explained in a journal article here, or if one wants a condensed version as part of a general issue on the various "medieval" torture devices that were not actually a thing, see here. But the biased and apparently non-discerning author of the site you link to presumably saw it and seized upon it without doing verification. So why should I trust their other claims (many of which, from what I can determine, seem dubious) if they're going to be uncritically repeating errors like this? There is some information on the page that is accurate (if sometimes exaggerated), but why should one put particular trust in a source that there is good reason to believe is filled with exaggerations, inaccuracies, and bias? It is problematic that this is apparently your preferred source for information on this.

And to be clear, you, like me, are not Roman Catholic, correct?

This isn’t a Catholic vs. Protestant issue, as I see it, but an issue of the truth.
 
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prodromos

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I'm sorry if that offends you.
It doesn't offend me in the slightest. It simply reveals how narrow and blinkered your study of history is.
 
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