The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

Grafted In said:

I did not read this entire thread, perhaps another has quoted
Mark 9:38-40.
Let one another be.

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That was kind of the point of the OP.

Grafted In said:

I did not read this entire thread, perhaps another has quoted
Mark 9:38-40.
Let one another be.

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chevyontheriver said:

That was kind of the point of the OP.

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And yet, 283 posts later the resounding answer seems to be, "Yeah, we're not going to do that."

Sad. Apparently, being charitable to fellow Christians only goes so far.

stevevw said:

I think from what I sense your saying that you may have misunderstood what I said. I am agreeing with you. I am saying that some make the rationalisation that Christ church has to change with the times. I am saying its the same yesterday, today and tommorrow.

That the church stood its ground in the early church regardless of the surrounding culture and thats why many of its leaders were executed by pagan Rome.

It is becoming a bit similar today where the surrounding culture is becoming Godless and pagan like. Its hard to tell some churches from the surrounding secular norms. But like the early church those who continue to stay true and follow Gods norms and Christ to the end no matter what will be saved.

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I see what you are saying. I have been in Protestant assemblies and in Catholic associations where modern thought has taken hold. Many understand that modernism is the synthesis of all heresies, because it is a type of generational arrogance. You seem to grasp this.
If you are in a Protestant assembly, I can see the difficult position you are in. A soul yearning for revival while surrounded by those that say everything is fine, yeah sin is bad, but it is too hard to be holy and besides, “you can’t lose your salvation”. It is hard to engage when those in the denomination do not share the concern and paint
the call to repentance as judgmental and unloving, yet all that is desired is to obey God.
It’s hard to argue with those people. They exist in Catholic Churches also, but I take comfort that they Church will not waver on faith and morals. Some claimed that Pope Francis did waver and called him a heretic, but when his writings are analyzed, he was not guilty of what others accused him. We saw the same rush to judgement of Jesus by the Pharisees. He was accused of being a law breaker that ate and drank with sinners. He said the well need not a physician but the sick . Those are the two heresies we face, modernism and Phariseeism. The same that Jesus faced, as Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

God bless you as you recognize the need for repentance and revival of holiness

seeking.IAM said:

And yet, 283 posts later the resounding answer seems to be, "Yeah, we're not going to do that."

Sad. Apparently, being charitable to fellow Christians only goes so far.

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Yes it is a difficult road. We are to love our enemies, yet not become ensnared by them.

People have been taught for the last 500 or so years that the Catholic Church is apostate. It is a full time job to defend the faith once delivered to the saints. The desire to avoid all argument is as the false prophets who cry peace peace when there is no peace.
Thoughtful debate properly engaged, while painful to address, is fruitful. Even unbelievers know, no pain no gain

boughtwithaprice said:

I see what you are saying. I have been in Protestant assemblies and in Catholic associations where modern thought has taken hold. Many understand that modernism is the synthesis of all heresies, because it is a type of generational arrogance. You seem to grasp this.
If you are in a Protestant assembly, I can see the difficult position you are in. A soul yearning for revival while surrounded by those that say everything is fine, yeah sin is bad, but it is too hard to be holy and besides, “you can’t lose your salvation”. It is hard to engage when those in the denomination do not share the concern and paint
the call to repentance as judgmental and unloving, yet all that is desired is to obey God.
It’s hard to argue with those people. They exist in Catholic Churches also, but I take comfort that they Church will not waver on faith and morals. Some claimed that Pope Francis did waver and called him a heretic, but when his writings are analyzed, he was not guilty of what others accused him. We saw the same rush to judgement of Jesus by the Pharisees. He was accused of being a law breaker that ate and drank with sinners. He said the well need not a physician but the sick . Those are the two heresies we face, modernism and Phariseeism. The same that Jesus faced, as Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

God bless you as you recognize the need for repentance and revival of holiness

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No worries and thankyou. I was brought up Catholic and I guess you could say I floated around Protestant churches when younger. But in recent years due to researching the history of the church I have been drawn back to the more traditional ways of worship.

There is something deep and spiritual about the Mass and though I use to think it boring I now see the significance. Most of all I see the importance of tradition because I believe in the same plain teachings the early church followed. They seemed not to worry about conventions and stayed true no matter what.

Which strangly enough seems to be what is happening now. There seems to be a spirit of getting back to the simple basics and truths due to the excesses of recent generations.

I think its also shown that due to all this relativity in postmodern society on what is the truth for Christs church I think this itself shows that the whole idea of pluralism and compromise is unhealthy and is decieving people. Therefore staying true is more important now more than ever.

stevevw said:

No worries and thankyou. I was brought up Catholic and I guess you could say I floated around Protestant churches when younger. But in recent years due to researching the history of the church I have been drawn back to the more traditional ways of worship.

There is something deep and spiritual about the Mass and though I use to think it boring I now see the significance. Most of all I see the importance of tradition because I believe in the same plain teachings the early church followed. They seemed not to worry about conventions and stayed true no matter what.

Which strangly enough seems to be what is happening now. There seems to be a spirit of getting back to the simple basics and truths due to the excesses of recent generations.

I think its also shown that due to all this relativity in postmodern society on what is the truth for Christs church I think this itself shows that the whole idea of pluralism and compromise is unhealthy and is decieving people. Therefore staying true is more important now more than ever.

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What got me is the Eucharist which is the source and summit of Catholic faith

We worship God who has the power of creation merely by His will. He says let there be light and there was light. He says this is my body and it is.
Transubstantiation is only an attempt to explain what is happening, we call it a mystery not because we do not know what, but at each Mass we contemplate how must this be, since I see bread and wine?
It is by the word of God and not the will of man, that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. When we see His body and blood, prior to consuming communion, we say amen. Our attitude should be as that of His mother. Behold the servant of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word.
The priests have received Holy Orders from the laying on of hands through Apostolic succession that is traced all the way back to the Apostles themselves. By Jesus will, we are eating the same bread and drinking the same wine as He gave His Apostles at the Last Supper.
That is an amazing blessing which I used to take for granted and I left the Church for a time but God had mercy and called me back to Himself.
Protestants love God as much as they are able, but they have to leave much of what they believe to the imagination, they do not know that His body and blood are here on Earth and He offers them as the bread of life. I liken them the the shepherds in the field at the birth of Jesus. The see the glory of God and all the heavenly hosts singing His praise. Catholics that understand and believe the Eucharist are as the shepherds that said let us go over to Bethlehem and see whether these things are so, and they are. Jesus loves all souls that call on His name, and His invitation to the marriage supper stands

boughtwithaprice said:

What got me is the Eucharist which is the source and summit of Catholic faith

We worship God who has the power of creation merely by His will. He says let there be light and there was light. He says this is my body and it is.
Transubstantiation is only an attempt to explain what is happening, we call it a mystery not because we do not know what, but at each Mass we contemplate how must this be, since I see bread and wine?
It is by the word of God and not the will of man, that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. When we see His body and blood, prior to consuming communion, we say amen. Our attitude should be as that of His mother. Behold the servant of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word.
The priests have received Holy Orders from the laying on of hands through Apostolic succession that is traced all the way back to the Apostles themselves. By Jesus will, we are eating the same bread and drinking the same wine as He gave His Apostles at the Last Supper.
That is an amazing blessing which I used to take for granted and I left the Church for a time but God had mercy and called me back to Himself.
Protestants love God as much as they are able, but they have to leave much of what they believe to the imagination, they do not know that His body and blood are here on Earth and He offers them as the bread of life. I liken them the the shepherds in the field at the birth of Jesus. The see the glory of God and all the heavenly hosts singing His praise. Catholics that understand and believe the Eucharist are as the shepherds that said let us go over to Bethlehem and see whether these things are so, and they are. Jesus loves all souls that call on His name, and His invitation to the marriage supper stands

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I could imagine the early church soon after Christs assention. At first meeting in the upper room and other homes and secret places where they broke bread. Christ said "do this in memory of me". So its an obvious way they could come together and worship. Breaking the bread was like having a meal and fellowship together. They would have told stories and sung songs of praise.

The breaking of the bread was such a central part of bringing Christs passion right into their midst as a real presense in body, mind and spirit. I cannot think of a better way to be in communion with God through partaking of His Sons sacrifice and offering ourselves in body, mind and spirit as a sacrifice in return.

Especially today where worship has become like a TedTalk.

stevevw said:

I could imagine the early church soon after Christs assention. At first meeting in the upper room and other homes and secret places where they broke bread. Christ said "do this in memory of me". So its an obvious way they could come together and worship. Breaking the bread was like having a meal and fellowship together. They would have told stories and sung songs of praise.

The breaking of the bread was such a central part of bringing Christs passion right into their midst as a real presense in body, mind and spirit. I cannot think of a better way to be in communion with God through partaking of His Sons sacrifice and offering ourselves in body, mind and spirit as a sacrifice in return.

Especially today where worship has become like a TedTalk.

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Excellent point of view.


The only thing that I would like to add, and not sure that you don’t already know this, it is not just bread and wine that we come together to share a meal and reminisce. It really is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
The example from scripture we have is the story of the two men on the way to Emaus, when they met Jesus after the resurrection. It was not until the breaking of bread that they recognized Jesus. It is Our Lord’s way of putting His mark on His sacrament.
The breaking of bread is so incidental to a meal that it would hardly be worth mentioning unless that was how we recognize Jesus, His word is true. You can almost hear Him say, hey guys, this is not just a meal of bread and wine, this is Me. When you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim my death until I come again, and I am with you until the end of the age.
The Mass is a recreation of the road to Emaus. We hear the word and sing a psalm, our hearts burn, and then Our Lord is revealed to us in the breaking of bread. The Mass is not an additional unbloody sacrifice, rather it is a re-presentation of the same sacrifice Our Lord gave on the cross, and we get to participate in it when we submit to Apostolic authority, as the psalmist says, unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.

God bless you, and may you know the love Jesus has for you

boughtwithaprice said:

Excellent point of view.


The only thing that I would like to add, and not sure that you don’t already know this, it is not just bread and wine that we come together to share a meal and reminisce. It really is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
The example from scripture we have is the story of the two men on the way to Emaus, when they met Jesus after the resurrection. It was not until the breaking of bread that they recognized Jesus. It is Our Lord’s way of putting His mark on His sacrament.
The breaking of bread is so incidental to a meal that it would hardly be worth mentioning unless that was how we recognize Jesus, His word is true. You can almost hear Him say, hey guys, this is not just a meal of bread and wine, this is Me. When you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim my death until I come again, and I am with you until the end of the age.
The Mass is a recreation of the road to Emaus. We hear the word and sing a psalm, our hearts burn, and then Our Lord is revealed to us in the breaking of bread. The Mass is not an additional unbloody sacrifice, rather it is a re-presentation of the same sacrifice Our Lord gave on the cross, and we get to participate in it when we submit to Apostolic authority, as the psalmist says, unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.

God bless you, and may you know the love Jesus has for you

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I agree and this example of the road to Emaus is how the communion in Christ of breaking the bread takes us into the heart of the most central and powerful aspect of being one with Christ.

It makes sense that in having such a communion with Christ that we become closer to God and I think makes us more Christlike.

Because in having that communion just as Christ gave His life we are also coming to God in sacrificing ourselves, our sin, our desires, the flesh, all laid at the alter to be in communion with Christ. Almost like its a price we are willing to pay just as Christ was willing to pay in obedience to His Father.

Just as Paul said we become partakers in Christs death and resurection and breaking the bread and the partaking of the wine in Christ is an outward act of commitment to that end.

stevevw said:

I agree and this example of the road to Emaus is how the communion in Christ of breaking the bread takes us into the heart of the most central and powerful aspect of being one with Christ.

It makes sense that in having such a communion with Christ that we become closer to God and I think makes us more Christlike.

Because in having that communion just as Christ gave His life we are also coming to God in sacrificing ourselves, our sin, our desires, the flesh, all laid at the alter to be in communion with Christ. Almost like its a price we are willing to pay just as Christ was willing to pay in obedience to His Father.

Just as Paul said we become partakers in Christs death and resurection and breaking the bread and the partaking of the wine in Christ is an outward act of commitment to that end.

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In saying that it is "an outward act", you are presuming that it is something that we do; it is not about us at all. The Sacraments, not just the Lord's Supper are what God has done, and continues to do for His Church. We can only receive what we are given. Even without faith, we receive His body and blood, but in an unworthy manner. Those who do, eat and drink judgement upon themselves. Scripture warns that in doing so there can be not only spiritual harm, but physical harm as well.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

In saying that it is "an outward act", you are presuming that it is something that we do; it is not about us at all. The Sacraments, not just the Lord's Supper are what God has done, and continues to do for His Church. We can only receive what we are given. Even without faith, we receive His body and blood, but in an unworthy manner. Those who do, eat and drink judgement upon themselves. Scripture warns that in doing so there can be not only spiritual harm, but physical harm as well.

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I agree it is what God and especially what Christ has done. But like all faith it requires a giving and surrendering to Christ. Christ said 'do this in memory of me'. This was what we must do to partake.

I am speaking mainly in that it seems Christ had taught this as something Christians must do when they come together in Christ. A direct instruction from Christ that requires us to then follow this.

As opposed to those who choose not to do this. That this is something like all teachings that w can choose to do or not to do. To be obedient or not.

The Liturgist said:

Well insofar as some people have recognized the point of the OP, that at least is good. I mean in this thread we’ve had Lutherans, Orthodox, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and members of various Protestant churches except a willingness to treat each other as human beings, which I find beautiful. The fact that others are not interested in that is tragic, but at least we can try to plant a seed of charity.

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That is to the good. It’s otherwise a bit too much to expect that those raised on hostility to the historic faith with their mothers milk could overcome it in one fell swoop.

chevyontheriver said:

That is to the good. It’s otherwise a bit too much to expect that those raised on hostility to the historic faith with their mothers milk could overcome it in one fell swoop.

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Jesus said it would not be that easy way. He did not say have faith in me, and everyone will love you. You will have no problem. If the Catholic Church were wrong and others right, we would expect to be met with Charity, because the elect follow the commands of God, right?

Our Lord’s words are beware when they all speak well of you, for they did so to the false prophets that were before you. Blessed are you when they curse you, persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you for my name’s sake. We should be happy when we are hated and not expect our ears to be tickled nor our flesh puffed up.
That does not mean that all persecution with the name of Jesus on it is righteous. It is possible to be an obnoxious bore or an instigator that only wishes to cause strife, but put Jesus name on it, then claim blessing from God. No one should expect heavenly reward for using evil means thinking they lead to a good end and expect anything from God. I know I have been guilty of it, and it is embarrassing, but I accept it as chastisement from the Lord, not blessing. Persecution in that instance is punishment deserved.
True persecution for Jesus’ name sake is following His commandments in peace, as well as in spirit and truth, yet still receiving hostility. We are to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us. Jesus wants those that follow in His footsteps to have a thick skin. What happens to us in the flesh is of no consequence in this world, except for our good.

What does scripture say? If you were of the world, the world would love what is its own. Jesus says you will be hated by all men for his name’s sake. All men means all men, even those you think are your friends. Jesus Himself was betrayed by one of His best friends

I thank The Liturgist for starting this thread as the spiritual battle is not against flesh and blood. It is spiritual meaning we search and fight for truth, not the esteem of men. My enemies have shown me my flaws and forced me to turn to the Lord for more study, and for that I am eternally grateful.
I do not fear open hostility. We talk as much as we are able to advance the greater glory of God
His word tells us think of all others as greater than ourselves and the first will be last and the last first. That means if I truly possess knowledge of God and am on the path to life, I must look at all others here as potentially having a greater place in heaven than me, because God loves you. What benefit would it be to me to have the highest place only to see my Lord’s heart broken because those that He loves have been lost to Satan and his kingdom?
I am sure you know there is no benefit

I talk too much, but thanks again The Liturgist for the OP

boughtwithaprice said:

If the Catholic Church were wrong and others right, we would expect to be met with Charity, because the elect follow the commands of God, right?

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Wow! That is an interesting way of putting it.