Question for my Catholic brothers and sisters

Always in His Presence · Thursday at 11:01 AM

Valletta said:
There are different vocations within the priesthood. They all spend a lot of time in prayer.

Understood - so do I.

I'm trying to reconcile the idea promoted that Priest don't marry (not saying it's bad nor good), because if they did, they could not devote themselves fully to the calling.

I pray daily - I study daily - I counsel and advise - I handle as shepherd all aspects of a growing church - I supervise my associate pastor, preside over our Elders and Deacon board - along with the Sacerdotal duties etc. and travel internationally as an adjunct professor. Did I mention I am writing a third book? I have not had a 'day off' in 18 years, there is always something to do.

I still had time to marry, raise six children and now help with 9 grand children.

I live and agree to a morals code with my denomination - no tobacco, no alcohol - no extramarital sex - no drugs - and no public dancing (we are a Holiness based Denom.).

I can understand if Celibacy is required - just stating that it is a requirement would end all debate - but saying celibacy is required to devote full efforts to the ministry is hard to digest. Peter was married - did he not fully give himself to the church?

Always in His Presence · Thursday at 11:03 AM

mourningdove~ said:
I'm assuming you are referring to verses 7 thru 9:

It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

If you use that passage to support priestly celibacy, doesn't it also say that "it is better to marry than to burn with passion"? No offense intended, but given what we know (homosexuality, SA, fathering of children), doesn't it seem like there have been/are quite a few 'celibate' priests who are burning with passion?

Well said - Quoted for Truth!

concretecamper · Thursday at 12:10 PM

But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; - 1 Corinthians 7:8

Paul states that continence is better, but he does not attempt to pressure those who cannot attain to it. He recognizes how strong the pull of concupiscence is and says that if it leads to a lot of violence and burning desire, then it is better to put an end to that, rather than be corrupted by immorality.

- John Chrysostom

That's why there is much discernment when entering His priesthood.

Valletta · Thursday at 12:33 PM

Always in His Presence said:
Understood - so do I.

I'm trying to reconcile the idea promoted that Priest don't marry (not saying it's bad nor good), because if they did, they could not devote themselves fully to the calling.

I pray daily - I study daily - I counsel and advise - I handle as shepherd all aspects of a growing church - I supervise my associate pastor, preside over our Elders and Deacon board - along with the Sacerdotal duties etc. and travel internationally as an adjunct professor. Did I mention I am writing a third book? I have not had a 'day off' in 18 years, there is always something to do.

I still had time to marry, raise six children and now help with 9 grand children.

I live and agree to a morals code with my denomination - no tobacco, no alcohol - no extramarital sex - no drugs - and no public dancing (we are a Holiness based Denom.).

I can understand if Celibacy is required - just stating that it is a requirement would end all debate - but saying celibacy is required to devote full efforts to the ministry is hard to digest. Peter was married - did he not fully give himself to the church?

It can be done, in fact a number of Catholic priests who were former Anglicans are married. Likewise too Catholic deacons often have families. Catholics though, are a particularly targeted religion, and the wife and children of a priest could be targeted, creating an especially difficult time for the priest as well. Priests too are required to say the Liturgy of Hours and be there for confessions and other sacraments. It has been debated and decided for the time being, there are points on both sides and things could change.

Always in His Presence · Thursday at 12:49 PM

Valletta said:
It can be done, in fact a number of Catholic priests who were former Anglicans are married. Likewise too Catholic deacons often have families. Catholics though, are a particularly targeted religion, and the wife and children of a priest could be targeted, creating an especially difficult time for the priest as well. Priests too are required to say the Liturgy of Hours and be there for confessions and other sacraments. It has been debated and decided for the time being, there are points on both sides and things could change.

thank you

Valletta · Thursday at 12:53 PM

mourningdove~ said:
I'm assuming you are referring to verses 7 thru 9:

It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

If you use that passage to support priestly celibacy, doesn't it also say that "it is better to marry than to burn with passion"? No offense intended, but given what we know (homosexuality, SA, fathering of children), doesn't it seem like there have been/are quite a few 'celibate' priests who are burning with passion?

At the peak of the sexual scandal, many decades ago, about 4% of priests were sexual abusers. The vast majority of these were homosexual priests. With the enacted regulations and policies the credible new reports in the U.S. have been in the single digits for many years. Of course, one is too many, but tragically there is still a lot of denial in other religions and the public sector. As to children out of wedlock, in the example I gave the last case in the Chicago diocese was about twenty years ago. If you think this is "quite a few" you are entitled to your opinion. Like I said, one is too many. But Satan never sleeps, and despite best efforts it seems impossible to completely eliminate the problem in our society.

mourningdove~ · Thursday at 1:09 PM

Valletta said:
Priests too are required to say the Liturgy of Hours and be there for confessions and other sacraments.

You brought up another interesting point ... 'confessions'.

I have often wondered how celibate priests can continue to hear confessions involving sexual sin, deviancy, etc., and not be affected by what they hear???

From what I've heard, some penitents can get quite 'vivid' (explanatory) in their confessions, when talking about their sexual sins. Realistically, how does a celibate priest listen to these confessions ... confessions by both women and men ... over and over again ... and not at some point become sexually aroused by what he hears? Or if not aroused, how does he 'wipe' the memories of what he's heard from his mind, so as not to find himself at some point tempted to sexual sin?

I don't expect for you to have an answer to this, but, as I see it, if a priest had a wife to go home to at the end of day? It might help him to remain chaste in his vocation.

You see, I don't blame all priests for falling. I truly don't. To me, it's understandable why it happens. The system just seems to be set up so as to eventually see many fall.

mourningdove~ · Thursday at 1:16 PM

Valletta said:
At the peak of the sexual scandal, many decades ago, about 4% of priests were sexual abusers. The vast majority of these were homosexual priests. With the enacted regulations and policies the credible new reports in the U.S. have been in the single digits for many years. Of course, one is too many, but tragically there is still a lot of denial in other religions and the public sector. As to children out of wedlock, in the example I gave the last case in the Chicago diocese was about twenty years ago. If you think this is "quite a few" you are entitled to your opinion. Like I said, one is too many. But Satan never sleeps, and despite best efforts it seems impossible to completely eliminate the problem in our society.

Our society has become so highly sexualized. I agree it is not realistic to expect to completely eliminate the problem.

Valletta · Thursday at 2:17 PM

mourningdove~ said:
You brought up another interesting point ... 'confessions'.

I have often wondered how celibate priests can continue to hear confessions involving sexual sin, deviancy, etc., and not be affected by what they hear???

From what I've heard, some penitents can get quite 'vivid' (explanatory) in their confessions, when talking about their sexual sins. Realistically, how does a celibate priest listen to these confessions ... confessions by both women and men ... over and over again ... and not at some point become sexually aroused by what he hears? Or if not aroused, how does he 'wipe' the memories of what he's heard from his mind, so as not to find himself at some point tempted to sexual sin?

I don't expect for you to have an answer to this, but, as I see it, if a priest had a wife to go home to at the end of day? It might help him to remain chaste in his vocation.

You see, I don't blame all priests for falling. I truly don't. To me, it's understandable why it happens. The system just seems to be set up so as to eventually see many fall.

Priests receive special training to forget sins. Additionally, the sins confessed are very repetitive, that is, they hear the same sins over and over and more than anything such renditions are typically boring to a priest. Realize that when a person goes into confession that person doesn't go into detail, he or she might just go down the Ten Commandments and say I broke this commandment so many times. A priest might ask a rare question for clarification, for example, he might ask details to determine the severity of the sin or to determine whether it is habitual. If you drank too much he may ask to determine whether you are an alcoholic and endanger other people in anger or in driving or whether it was a one time thing. If you say you are an alcoholic he might recommend a step program. If you stole, are you a bank robver who uses a weapon and holds up banks every week, or did you take home an extra napkin from a restaurant? Lastly, a priest is not allowed to discuss the sins with anyone. I doubt you remember much that you have never discussed. As to having a wife, again there is good and bad. The wife may have many problems she burdens her husband with. One priest compared marriage to two rough diamonds polishing each other by grating against one another.

mourningdove~ · Thursday at 2:53 PM

Valletta said:
Priests receive special training to forget sins. Additionally, the sins confessed are very repetitive, that is, they hear the same sins over and over and more than anything such renditions are typically boring to a priest. Realize that when a person goes into confession that person doesn't go into detail, he or she might just go down the Ten Commandments and say I broke this commandment so many times. A priest might ask a rare question for clarification, for example, he might ask details to determine the severity of the sin or to determine whether it is habitual. If you drank too much he may ask to determine whether you are an alcoholic and endanger other people in anger or in driving or whether it was a one time thing. If you say you are an alcoholic he might recommend a step program. If you stole, are you a bank robver who uses a weapon and holds up banks every week, or did you take home an extra napkin from a restaurant? Lastly, a priest is not allowed to discuss the sins with anyone. I doubt you remember much that you have never discussed. As to having a wife, again there is good and bad. The wife may have many problems she burdens her husband with. One priest compared marriage to two rough diamonds polishing each other by grating against one another.

I can see both the pros and cons of a priest having a wife.

I do know in Protestantism, that (generally speaking) the pastors who are most productive and fruitful in their ministries, and less likely to fall, are those who are in stable marriages where they have the ongoing support of a life partner.

I think it is alot to expect (even with special training) that a priest remembers no sins nor the person who shared them, but I understand that is the RCC belief, so I'll respectfully leave it at that.

Valletta · Thursday at 3:19 PM

mourningdove~ said:
I can see both the pros and cons of a priest having a wife.

I do know in Protestantism, that (generally speaking) the pastors who are most productive and fruitful in their ministries, and less likely to fall, are those who are in stable marriages where they have the ongoing support of a life partner.

I think it is alot to expect (even with special training) that a priest remembers no sins nor the person who shared them, but I understand that is the RCC belief, so I'll respectfully leave it at that.

It's a fact that they don't remember most of them, I never said they didn't remember any of the sins. There is no Catholic "belief" one way or another. Something quite unusual could indeed be remembered. As to the sinner, if you wish you can be anonymous, that is, behind a curtain or something to that effect. That is the norm at our church, the priest can't see you and you can't see the priest. But you can make an appointment for a special face to face. When face to face I have seen a priest roll his eyes back into his head, as in a trance, while hearing my sins.

mourningdove~ · Thursday at 3:59 PM

Valletta said:
It's a fact that they don't remember most of them, I never said they didn't remember any of the sins. There is no Catholic "belief" one way or another. Something quite unusual could indeed be remembered. As to the sinner, if you wish you can be anonymous, that is, behind a curtain or something to that effect. That is the norm at our church, the priest can't see you and you can't see the priest. But you can make an appointment for a special face to face. When face to face I have seen a priest roll his eyes back into his head, as in a trance, while hearing my sins.

Thanks for the clarification, and the information on your experiences.

Xeno.of.athens · Friday at 10:29 PM

Valletta said:
When face to face I have seen a priest roll his eyes back into his head, as in a trance, while hearing my sins.

Not to be dismissive or unduly naughty, but is it possible that your sins were so pedestrian and boring that he was falling asleep?

Valletta · Saturday at 4:07 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Not to be dismissive or unduly naughty, but is it possible that your sins were so pedestrian and boring that he was falling asleep?

Aren't you kind.

Always in His Presence · Saturday at 1:04 PM

Valletta said:
Aren't you kind.

It would be refreshing

The Liturgist · Sunday at 6:58 PM

Always in His Presence said:
Okay - I wonder sometimes if the 'discipline' is working. Given the multiple thousands of instances of sexual sin - both pedophilia and moral failures with woman, would it be beneficial to make celibacy and option.

My father was a seminarian and left because he met my mother and fell in love. With such a great need of priest to the point that churches are closing because of the lack of clergy - it just seen a logical solution for both.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that the Catholic church has Eastern Rite and Anglican Rite ordinariates which have married clergy.

Also attributing child sex abuse within the Roman church to clerical celibacy is entirely wrong, particularly since such abuse has also occurred in other denominations which did not have clerical celibacy.

In the Orthodox Church, we have celibate bishops, who can be married, but are celibate within marriage (most married Orthodox bishops are very elderly or are chorepiscopi - choir bishops who lack the full range of episcopal authority, being rather like protopresbyters with the ability to tonsure readers), but the majority of our bishops are monastics. In general with regards to the bishops, I am not convinced the episcopal life is compatible with family life because of the need for the bishop to be a father to his entire diocese. This does not preclude celibate married bishops with adult children, or celibate widowed bishops who enter the monastic state.

As part of my commitment to ecumenical reconciliation and reunion, always defend the Roman Catholic Church and other liturgical churches from unfair and inappropriate criticism, despite not being Roman Catholic, and I think my record on Christian Forums has been very consistent, and i do hope my Roman Catholic brethren are aware of the extent to which I love and support them.

The Liturgist · Sunday at 7:02 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
This will be my Last Post on this particular question. I thought it would be interesting for us all to see how many people are actually ministering in various ways, including preaching within The Catholic Church.

While it is true that ordained priests are the only people who can conduct a full mass, it is also true that permanent deacons and laymen with educational qualifications may act as preachers as well as monastic brothers, all of these may preside over a Communion Service and present a homily and carry out most of The liturgy laid out for a mass with the exception of consecrating the hosts, and the Cup.

Here is a comprehensive and historically grounded estimate of global per capita Catholic ministerial vocations, now expanded to include:

Ordained priests

Permanent deacons

Lay pastoral ministers (authorised and commissioned)

Religious brothers and sisters (non-priestly but vocationally consecrated)

This broader scope reflects the Church’s evolving understanding of ministry, especially post–Vatican II, where lay and diaconal roles gained formal recognition.

Global Per Capita Catholic Ministerial Vocations (1925–2025)

Year Global Catholic Population Total Ministers (Priests + Deacons + Lay Ministers + Religious) Ministers per Million Catholics
1925 ~300 million ~500,000 ~1,667
1935 ~330 million ~520,000 ~1,576
1945 ~360 million ~540,000 ~1,500
1955 ~450 million ~580,000 ~1,289
1965 ~550 million ~650,000 ~1,182
1975 ~650 million ~700,000 ~1,077
1985 ~750 million ~720,000 ~960
1995 ~950 million ~740,000 ~779
2005 ~1.1 billion ~760,000 ~691
2015 ~1.27 billion ~780,000 ~614
2025 ~1.41 billion ~800,000 ~567

Composition of Ministerial Vocations (2025 Estimate)

Category Estimated Global Count
Ordained Priests ~407,000
Permanent Deacons ~50,000
Lay Pastoral Ministers ~200,000
Religious Brothers/Sisters ~143,000
Total Ministers ~800,000

Sources:

Vatican Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae

USCCB Certification Handbook for Ecclesial Ministry

Australian Catholic Deacons Association

Catholic Church in Australia: Lay Ministry Guidelines

NALM 2025 Survey Report

Key Observations

Lay Ministry Expansion: Post–Vatican II reforms (especially Lumen Gentium and Christifideles Laici) catalysed the rise of lay pastoral ministers, catechists, and liturgical leaders.

Permanent Diaconate Revival: Restored in 1967, the permanent diaconate has grown steadily, especially in Latin America and North America.

Religious Life Decline: The number of religious brothers and sisters has declined since the 1960s, though their pastoral and educational contributions remain vital.

Ministerial Density Decline: Despite growth in lay and diaconal roles, the overall ministerial density per Catholic has declined due to population growth.

Note that among the religious, those groups which are connected with the Traditional Latin Mass continue to have solid vocations. However, they are greatly outnumbered by less traditional religious orders, and in the US in particular there has been a vocational problem among nuns in the “mainline” orders. So we see, in the US, thriving vocations among those orders that celebrate the traditional Latin mass, and less thriving vocations elsewhere.

Likewise in the Orthodox Church, those monasteries that lack a tradition for being traditional have seen a decline in vocations whereas the reverse is also true. Vocations on Mount Athos are very strong, for instance, but vocations elsewhere in Greece such as Meteora and some of the island monasteries are less than ideal. In the US this pattern repeats itself, in that the healthiest and most dynamic part of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which like in Australia is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, a problematic jurisdiction, are those monasteries founded by Elder Ephraim, who was an Athonite monk and a spiritual son of St. Joseph the Hesychast.

Year	Global Catholic Population	Total Ministers (Priests + Deacons + Lay Ministers + Religious)	Ministers per Million Catholics
1925	~300 million	~500,000	~1,667
1935	~330 million	~520,000	~1,576
1945	~360 million	~540,000	~1,500
1955	~450 million	~580,000	~1,289
1965	~550 million	~650,000	~1,182
1975	~650 million	~700,000	~1,077
1985	~750 million	~720,000	~960
1995	~950 million	~740,000	~779
2005	~1.1 billion	~760,000	~691
2015	~1.27 billion	~780,000	~614
2025	~1.41 billion	~800,000	~567

Category	Estimated Global Count
Ordained Priests	~407,000
Permanent Deacons	~50,000
Lay Pastoral Ministers	~200,000
Religious Brothers/Sisters	~143,000
Total Ministers	~800,000

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Global Per Capita Catholic Ministerial Vocations (1925–2025)​

Composition of Ministerial Vocations (2025 Estimate)​

Key Observations​

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Global Per Capita Catholic Ministerial Vocations (1925–2025)

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