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Look who's side God is no now.

2PhiloVoid

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It amuses me. People take it too seriously.
From my perspective, they don't take it seriously enough.
The sort that get over intellectual about religious texts. (or was your kind "apes", I forget).
You're just full of humorous asides today, aren't you?
Like all of us, I have access to a wide variety of reports on what is "going on" out there. We've also got our own "reporters" on this site making threads every time ICE arrests a handful of these "bad guys". The targeting of ICE on "bad guys" is quite poor, but that is probably because the whole operation is being run out of the White House by a racist xenophobe who just wants them all deported, even the native born.
And you know that he's a racist xenophobe, how?
The only correct place is not on the job and not with the government's voice.
I'm not a big stickler on the separation of Church and State, so even though I prefer the Federal Government be more neutral in citizen's religious affairs, I don't mind if they put a little fertilizer in the garden.
I didn't care about your Copernicus quote.
Good. That means I no longer have to care about your rhetoric either.
And science has zero usage for the bible.
No, science is something people do as a human endeavor; it itself is not a thing that the universe itself does on its own. Being that this is the case, and where humans are involved, and where the physical and spiritual well-being of the world's human beings is involved, science will always have usage for the Bible whether certain scientists are aware of that fact or remain in pure hellish ignorance.
If a table is that far out of balance we will usually have a spare CRC Handbook around to level it off.

Wow! You mean the CRC Handbook has an Ethics section in it? If so, I'd love to read that. Or do you think that Ethics [and hence Philosophy] plays no role in science, or in how and what you do with your Chemistry and Physics?

Here's the thing: it doesn't matter than you're in a science section of a public forum IF that forum is cast under the umbrella of the Christian faith.

Being as such, I'm also here, like I've always been here, to tell you atheists where to get off the train politically. And if you're of the sort that thinks they're going to push a "scorched earth" policy where Christianity is concerned, think again.
 
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BCP1928

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From my perspective, they don't take it seriously enough.

You're just full of humorous asides today, aren't you?

And you know that he's a racist xenophobe, how?
Do you think he is just pretending? You wouldn't be the first.
I'm not a big stickler on the separation of Church and State, so even though I prefer the Federal Government be more neutral in citizen's religious affairs, I don't mind if they put a little fertilizer in the garden.

Good. That means I no longer have to care about your rhetoric either.

No, science is something people do as a human endeavor; it itself is not a thing that the universe itself does on its own. Being that this is the case, and where humans are involved, and where the physical and spiritual well-being of the world's human beings is involved, science will always have usage for the Bible whether certain scientists are aware of that fact or remain in pure hellish ignorance.
You're confusing the Bible with the Gospel of Christ.
Wow! You mean the CRC Handbook has an Ethics section in it? If so, I'd love to read that. Or do you think that Ethics [and hence Philosophy] plays no role in science, or in how and what you do with your Chemistry and Physics?

Here's the thing: it doesn't matter than you're in a science section of a public forum IF that forum is cast under the umbrella of the Christian faith.

Being as such, I'm also here, like I've always been here, to tell you atheists where to get off the train politically. And if you're of the sort that thinks they're going to push a "scorched earth" policy where Christianity is concerned, think again.
It's good of you to defend Christianity, but remember that you do not speak for all Christians.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you think he is just pretending? You wouldn't be the first.
Oh, I've heard rumors that he has a copy of Mein Kampf on his bookshelf or table side, but that rumor doesn't say much.


You're confusing the Bible with the Gospel of Christ.
Don't ever, ever, ever tell me I confuse these things, Old Man! You have no idea where I come from in my thinking. Get that straight in your head.
It's good of you to defend Christianity, but remember that you do not speak for all Christians.

That's fine. They don't speak for me either, and I find that Critical Sauce goes just as well on a Goose, a Gander, or a Chicken.
 
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BCP1928

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Oh, I've heard rumors that he has a copy of Mein Kampf on his bookshelf or table side, but that rumor doesn't say much.
That's too long a book for him. I think it more likely that he's just a pantomime bigot because it sells.
Don't ever, ever, ever tell me I confuse these things, Old Man! You have no idea where I come from in my thinking. Get that straight in your head.


That's fine. They don't speak for me either, and I find that Critical Sauce goes just as well on a Goose, a Gander, or a Chicken.
Don't forget the Golden Rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated, that's how we will know how you want us to treat you.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's too long a book for him. I think it more likely that he's just a pantomime bigot because it sells.

Don't forget the Golden Rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated, that's how we will know how you want us to treat you.

As an existentialist and skeptical inquirer, I'm fairly "wanting" in the area of trusting others to follow through and move beyond what appears on the surface to be virtue signalling when citing the Golden Rule. Jesus will just have to understand that for someone like myself, sometimes, Critical Philosophy has to come before fully advocating His Theology (or the time honored interpretations and paradigmatic limits of His Theology).
 
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Hans Blaster

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From my perspective, they don't take it seriously enough.
If I wrote a book about it would be called "mere Christianity" because I meant the title. (Not sure what that YA author meant by it.)
You're just full of humorous asides today, aren't you?
It's the only one of my reactions to religion that is acceptable here.
And you know that he's a racist xenophobe, how?
Mr. Miller's despicable nature is well documented. You could start with his biography:


I'm not a big stickler on the separation of Church and State, so even though I prefer the Federal Government be more neutral in citizen's religious affairs, I don't mind if they put a little fertilizer in the garden.
And here we have the only on topic point and the one where I have the biggest problem with your position. I have been a staunch separationist since approximately when Reagan took the oath. (Just for timing, not him in particular.)) (And the law is on my side.) Perhaps you've not been concerned because you perceive your religion as the dominant one (locally, nationally,...), I did not have that luxury. It was clear to me from an early age that if someone was trying to use their governmental position to push religion it wouldn't be in my favor. (I've never been comfortable around other people's religions, nor with putting mine on display.) Our's is a religiously pluralist nation and it always has been and the separation is part of the key. The alternative is the surging XNat movement, and we don't want that.
Good. That means I no longer have to care about your rhetoric either.

No, science is something people do as a human endeavor; it itself is not a thing that the universe itself does on its own. Being that this is the case, and where humans are involved, and where the physical and spiritual well-being of the world's human beings is involved, science will always have usage for the Bible whether certain scientists are aware of that fact or remain in pure hellish ignorance.
Science doesn't care about what you do on your own time at home. It also doesn't care about your family, or your hobbies, or your politics. The operation of science can accommodate religious restrictions like the guy who needs to leave early on Friday because he keeps the Sabbath, or needs a few days off because Fish is transiting through the region, or to go to a family wedding.
Wow! You mean the CRC Handbook has an Ethics section in it? If so, I'd love to read that. Or do you think that Ethics [and hence Philosophy] plays no role in science, or in how and what you do with your Chemistry and Physics?
the non-existent ethics section of the CRC handbook would be preferable. biblical morality is a bit to bloodthirsty for science and not relevant. there are so much better sources to look at if you care to do so.
Here's the thing: it doesn't matter than you're in a science section of a public forum IF that forum is cast under the umbrella of the Christian faith.

Being as such, I'm also here, like I've always been here, to tell you atheists where to get off the train politically. And if you're of the sort that thinks they're going to push a "scorched earth" policy where Christianity is concerned, think again.
Are you upgrading to the flaming skull soon?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If I wrote a book about it would be called "mere Christianity" because I meant the title. (Not sure what that YA author meant by it.)

It's the only one of my reactions to religion that is acceptable here.

Mr. Miller's despicable nature is well documented. You could start with his biography:



And here we have the only on topic point and the one where I have the biggest problem with your position. I have been a staunch separationist since approximately when Reagan took the oath. (Just for timing, not him in particular.)) (And the law is on my side.) Perhaps you've not been concerned because you perceive your religion as the dominant one (locally, nationally,...), I did not have that luxury. It was clear to me from an early age that if someone was trying to use their governmental position to push religion it wouldn't be in my favor. (I've never been comfortable around other people's religions, nor with putting mine on display.) Our's is a religiously pluralist nation and it always has been and the separation is part of the key. The alternative is the surging XNat movement, and we don't want that.

Science doesn't care about what you do on your own time at home. It also doesn't care about your family, or your hobbies, or your politics. The operation of science can accommodate religious restrictions like the guy who needs to leave early on Friday because he keeps the Sabbath, or needs a few days off because Fish is transiting through the region, or to go to a family wedding.

the non-existent ethics section of the CRC handbook would be preferable. biblical morality is a bit to bloodthirsty for science and not relevant. there are so much better sources to look at if you care to do so.

Are you upgrading to the flaming skull soon?

It's so good to know that you have only one mode of mental processing: unilateral. I'll keep that in mind and categorize you with all of the DEI advocates who failed to hire me recently because I don't tow their own unilateral Marxist Lines.

Give Betty Bowers my regards.
 
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ViaCrucis

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**** News Flash****

The White House Faith Office was established by an executive order to "assist faith-based entities, community organizations, and houses of worship in their efforts to strengthen American families, promote work and self-sufficiency, and protect religious liberty."
The office is led by Pastor Paula White-Cain, who also served as an advisor during the previous Trump administration.
A separate and related executive order was also issued to establish a task force within the Department of Justice with the stated purpose of "eradicating anti-Christian bias." This task force is chaired by the Attorney General and is specifically mandated to identify, terminate, and rectify any "unlawful and improper conduct, policies, or practices that target Christians." This includes a directive to prosecute "anti-Christian violence and vandalism."
While the White House Faith Office's official description encompasses all "faith-based entities," the accompanying executive orders and official statements have specifically highlighted a focus on addressing what is described as "anti-Christian bias, thus presents a Christian based government .

I guess the irony is that as far as this Christian sees it, the anti-Christian bias in government is most evident in the Trumpian edifice. There has not existed a more anti-Christian administration that I am aware of than this current one.

The problem, I suppose, is that when I say "anti-Christian" I mean in opposition to Christianity as it is; though when they say "anti-Christian" they don't mean "Christian" in the sense of "that which holds to the Christian religion" but in the sense of a particular tribe of American social identity.

It's Christianity as a sports team, not Christianity as a religion. The charlatans, cowards, and thugs who are currently in charge wouldn't know what Christianity is if it bit them in the foot.

When I was growing up we used to say that simply going to a garage didn't make you a car. Apparently the whole "Actually believing this stuff" portion of Christianity doesn't matter anymore. And that's pretty thoroughly anti-Christian.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hans Blaster

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It's so good to know that you have only one mode of mental processing: unilateral.
This needs a Trek quote:

"It's not you I hate Cardassian. It is who I became because of you." -- CPO Miles E. O'Brien.
I'll keep that in mind and categorize you with all of the DEI advocates who failed to hire me recently because I don't tow their own unilateral Marxist Lines.
Oh good grief. You're going to go out complaining about "DEI" and "Marxism". [Picard_Riker_double_facepalm.gif]
Give Betty Bowers my regards.
She's not my type. But just remember, religion and government have no place working together.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This needs a Trek quote:

"It's not you I hate Cardassian. It is who I became because of you." -- CPO Miles E. O'Brien.
Some people take Star Trek .................. too seriously.

Besides, I learned all of my politics from George Lucas and Stan Lee's 1970s bullpen. :sorry:
Oh good grief. You're going to go out complaining about "DEI" and "Marxism". [Picard_Riker_double_facepalm.gif]
Yes, I am. Not that the available political alternative is much better, but the Left doesn't suddenly become magically "righteous" simply because the alternative isn't preferable either.
She's not my type. But just remember, religion and government have no place working together.

You're telling this to me? Is this something that, as a former U.S. History teacher, I need to become aware of (or agree with)?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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But there have been people who knew the hermanutics around and in this era there still are new "cherry picking" for you to spot and I hear Christians repeating badly "debunked" readings *all the time*. Whatever you think you and your kind are doing, it ain't working.
I think that touches on another aspect of the ideological conflict.

The hermanutics aspect is one that's something of a sticking point for the religious conservatives, and to be honest, I think their frustration with that is somewhat understandable.

Whenever that concept is invoked, almost without fail, it's almost always from a progressive-leaning academic perspective that has the predictable conclusion of "and here's why all of the things that align with my preferences are applicable, but all the things that the other team wants aren't meant to be taken literally or no longer apply"

And it's typically received as condescension.

"We don't believe your book is real, but for those of you who do believe it, we are going to tell you the correct way to believe in it... Which, as luck would have it, aligns with our political ideology"

Or, in a practical phrasing:

"Here's why all of the verses that would support welcoming migrants and giving money to the poor are still valid, but all that stuff it says about gays and women doesn't apply anymore"
 
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BCP1928

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I think that touches on another aspect of the ideological conflict.

The hermanutics aspect is one that's something of a sticking point for the religious conservatives, and to be honest, I think their frustration with that is somewhat understandable.

Whenever that concept is invoked, almost without fail, it's almost always from a progressive-leaning academic perspective that has the predictable conclusion of "and here's why all of the things that align with my preferences are applicable, but all the things that the other team wants aren't meant to be taken literally or no longer apply"

And it's typically received as condescension.

"We don't believe your book is real, but for those of you who do believe it, we are going to tell you the correct way to believe in it... Which, as luck would have it, aligns with our political ideology"

Or, in a practical phrasing:

"Here's why all of the verses that would support welcoming migrants and giving money to the poor are still valid, but all that stuff it says about gays and women doesn't apply anymore"
True enough, with the caveat that many of your (shall we call them, for convenience) Liberals are in fact Christians who believe they have as sincere an understand of the Bible as Conservatives.

But the issue here is rather different. Here we have a secular organization quoting a specific passage of scripture in contradiction to its widely understood meaning in order to appeal to laymen.
 
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durangodawood

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I think that touches on another aspect of the ideological conflict.

The hermanutics aspect is one that's something of a sticking point for the religious conservatives, and to be honest, I think their frustration with that is somewhat understandable.

Whenever that concept is invoked, almost without fail, it's almost always from a progressive-leaning academic perspective that has the predictable conclusion of "and here's why all of the things that align with my preferences are applicable, but all the things that the other team wants aren't meant to be taken literally or no longer apply"

And it's typically received as condescension.

"We don't believe your book is real, but for those of you who do believe it, we are going to tell you the correct way to believe in it... Which, as luck would have it, aligns with our political ideology"

Or, in a practical phrasing:

"Here's why all of the verses that would support welcoming migrants and giving money to the poor are still valid, but all that stuff it says about gays and women doesn't apply anymore"
An unspoken part of the "progressive" argument is to privilege the words of Jesus himself over both more ancient revelations as well as later interpreters.

I understand that Christian doctrine highly discourages that. But From an outsider perspective it seems kind of sensible.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Some people take Star Trek .................. too seriously.
It is the most interesting of all of the fictional universes we discuss.
Besides, I learned all of my politics from George Lucas and Stan Lee's 1970s bullpen. :sorry:
Lucas? The only politics I remember in his work was the comment about democracy failing in the 3rd prequel, otherwise his morality tales were rather black and white (and often costumed that way as well). I am unfamiliar with the 70s work of Stan Lee.
Yes, I am. Not that the available political alternative is much better, but the Left doesn't suddenly become magically "righteous" simply because the alternative isn't preferable either.
Blaming a failed job application on "DEI" and "Marxism" is weak sauce.
You're telling this to me? Is this something that, as a former U.S. History teacher, I need to become aware of (or agree with)?
I'm telling this to the poster who is soft on separation of government and religion. (And therefore weak on opposition to theocracy.)
 
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ViaCrucis

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An unspoken part of the "progressive" argument is to privilege the words of Jesus himself over both more ancient revelations as well as later interpreters.

I understand that Christian doctrine highly discourages that. But From an outsider perspective it seems kind of sensible.

I don't know that Christian doctrine discourages that. The idea that God's revelation of Himself is "progressive" through history, culminating in Jesus who is THE Revelation of God is, last I checked, considered normative.

Though this can come down to the theological tradition/denomination of Christianity one is part of; as a Lutheran I would subscribe to the words of Dr. Luther when he says, "We believe the Scriptures for Christ's sake, we do not believe in Christ for the Scripture's sake". That is to say, the meaning and purpose of the Bible is Jesus, the point isn't the Bible for the Bible itself; but because the Bible is ultimately about Jesus and points us to Jesus. Or, going back to St. Augustine, "the Scriptures contain but a single Utterance", the single Utterance of Scripture being Jesus.

The historic Christian doctrinal claim is that Jesus is, Himself, the Divine Word of God. To dig fully into what that means would involve getting into layers of Greek and Jewish philosophical concepts as well as digging into the doctrine of the Trinity; but just on an immediate surface level meaning, to call Jesus the Divine Word made flesh, the Incarnate Logos as we would say, means that Jesus is God's way of making plain Himself.

So when we read Jesus saying things like, "If you have known Me you have known the Father" or where John the Evangelist writes, "No one has every seen God, but the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, has made Him known" or where the author of Hebrews writes, "At many times and in diverse ways God has spoken to our fathers through the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us through His Son ... who is the radiance of His glory and the exact imprint of His Person" or where St. Paul says, "He is the visible image of the invisible God" it's all pointing to the fact that in Jesus we encounter God in the the clearest way possible. Jesus is how God tells us about Himself, and shows us Himself. To encounter to Jesus is to encounter God (not just in the sense that Jesus is, Himself, God by nature, which is true; but because Jesus as the Son shows us, reveals, and presents unambiguously, who His Father is). What is God like? Well God is like Jesus.

So taking these two things together: The point of the Bible is Jesus, and Jesus is the locus of Divine Revelation, God's own Self-Disclosure; then that means we don't get a full disclosure of God outside of and apart from Jesus--so if I read the Bible sans Christ, I am not going to get a clear image of God. I can only encounter who God really is in Scripture if I understand and read Scripture through a Christocentric lens--reading the Bible through Jesus.

This also means that it is not difficult nor controversial to say that God as He grants people encounter with Himself meets them not in fullness, but in part. Jesus, for example, says that Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of the human heart--but that this isn't how it was supposed to be from the beginning. That is to say, there is a limited encounter or limited amount of revelation; at least in some sense. God encounters people in the context of their time and culture. Israelite religion looks Near-Eastern not because Near-Eastern culture is superior or itself of Divine origin; but because that is the culture of Israel's historic context at nexus of Egypt, Canaan, and Mesopotamia--and God gives Himself within the context of that culture.

Circumcision, for example, was not a unique invention of the Israelites, there was an already established precedent in some of the cultures of the ancient near east--but in the story of Abraham and in the giving of the Torah, in the establishment of Covenant, circumcision means something specific; it becomes a sign of Covenant, a remembrance of God's promise to Abraham, it cements an identity based on Divine promises. For Christians, we see those covenant promises, God's covenant faithfulness, fulfilled in Jesus; St. Paul sees circumcision as a shadow pointing to the solid reality of Jesus, in which what matters is not foreskin but a transformation of the heart wrought by grace, and the Christian Sacrament of Baptism conveys a crystallization of the encounter with grace--whereby one is made new in Christ, with a new heart, a new conscience, the birth of becoming a new kind of person that is no longer under the bondage of slavery through Adam, but freedom in the Messiah, who has become the New Adam. For Paul this means "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing"--the foreskin doesn't matter; and even more importantly--whether one is Jewish or one is Gentile isn't what matters, what matters is faith in the Messiah, the transformation that happens by the power of God through Jesus, in which we are becoming partakers of the new creation, for Christ was risen as first-fruits of the resurrection, and when He returns there will be resurrection, and the longing of all creation for renewal and freedom from the futility of death shall come to pass--that's new creation. Early Christian theologians, from the beginning, spoke of the day Jesus rose from the dead as an "8th day of creation" and highlighted the fact that the Torah commands male babies be circumcised on the 8th day as pointing to this--what does an "8th day of creation" mean? That going back to Genesis chapter 1 the story of creation unfolds in 6 days, with the 7th day a day of Divine rest--an 8th day of creation means new creation. If, in Eden we see creation sold over to slavery and futility through Adam and Eve's mishandling of their responsibility to care, steward, and be faithful rulers of God's good creation--then in Jesus there is a reversal of Adam's disobedient act, a healing and fix to the Fall, and ultimately the making-new of all creation. Through Jesus we, even today and right now, are called to become partakers of that new creation through faith, by grace, as we are being conformed to the image of Jesus, looking forward to the Day when God sets all things to rights; that through our forgiveness and call to follow Jesus we are supposed to be agents of transformative love and representatives of God's kingdom, and living lives that are infused with the hope of renewal and resurrection. To live a godly life is not that I might secure my spot in a good afterlife apart from earth; but because it reflects the hope of renewal, the cessation of death, the setting-to-rights of all things by God in a life of hopeful anticipation and confidence that Jesus has overcome death and the wicked powers and principalities are already defeated--I can therefore go and live my neighbor because that is my full human purpose as an Image-bearing creation of God, reflecting the new reality in Jesus, because God desires the full flourishing of His creation, not just of human beings, but the whole of creation ("Be fruitful and multiply").

And none of what I'm saying here is controversial, this is all of it pretty basic historic Christian dogma.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Perpetual Student

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That's not actually the case. The more one can be educated, the less one will use biblical verses in willy-nilly fashion with over assurance.
Which many will see as a strong argument against education. :rolleyes:
 
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BCP1928

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That's not actually the case. The more one can be educated, the less one will use biblical verses in willy-nilly fashion with over assurance.
Right. The ICE video was not pitched to the fully biblically literate and the verse was not picked "willy-nilly."
 
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