The Love of God

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 9:46 PM

Let's look at the issue of God's Love - in the Greek - Agape.

For some reason I once believed that only the saved who were indwelled by the Holy Spirit and motivated by the very Love of Jesus could express Agape.

I was aware that the works not motivated by the Love of Jesus come to nothing. 1 Cor 13:3

Then as I pondered on Jesus teaching about loving ones enemies, He mentioned that even sinners love those who love them. Luke 6:32

I admit I was somewhat surprised to read that in that verse - the Greek is indeed Agape.

So I had to conclude that there was a function of God's Love in 'common grace' that promoted social cohesion among the unsaved.

Yet we are called to a love far beyond that - given that Jesus said 'greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends.' and went on to demonstrate this supremely on the cross.

Now a strong moral ethic in todays culture is called reciprocity - meaning returning a favour - this is what the unsaved do.

But Jesus is calling us to love far beyond that.

You will note that the sin of Sodom was indifference to the poor.

The poor had nothing to give.

Reaching out to the poor then is primary to responding to God's Love.

Yet the priority is first to the household of the saints. Gal 6:10

In that we often fail miserably - the goal among the saints is for equality 2 Cor 8:14

Maybe if we attended to this, the love among the saints would be more visible to the world. John 17:23

Then we would have multitudes drawn to faith.

Family is all about looking after and being looked after.

This is the Agape of God.

The unsaved know this...

That is what they are looking for.

Reluctant Theologian · Tuesday at 10:59 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Let's look at the issue of God's Love - in the Greek - Agape.

For some reason I once believed that only the saved who were indwelled by the Holy Spirit and motivated by the very Love of Jesus could express Agape.

I was aware that the works not motivated by the Love of Jesus come to nothing. 1 Cor 13:3

Then as I pondered on Jesus teaching about loving ones enemies, He mentioned that even sinners love those who love them. Luke 6:32

I admit I was somewhat surprised to read that in that verse - the Greek is indeed Agape.

So I had to conclude that there was a function of God's Love in 'common grace' that promoted social cohesion among the unsaved.

Yet we are called to a love far beyond that - given that Jesus said 'greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends.' and went on to demonstrate this supremely on the cross.

Now a strong moral ethic in todays culture is called reciprocity - meaning returning a favour - this is what the unsaved do.

But Jesus is calling us to love far beyond that.

You will note that the sin of Sodom was indifference to the poor.

The poor had nothing to give.

Reaching out to the poor then is primary to responding to God's Love.

Yet the priority is first to the household of the saints. Gal 6:10

In that we often fail miserably - the goal among the saints is for equality 2 Cor 8:14

Maybe if we attended to this, the love among the saints would be more visible to the world. John 17:23

Then we would have multitudes drawn to faith.

Family is all about looking after and being looked after.

This is the Agape of God.

The unsaved know this...

That is what they are looking for.

You are right - it is common Christian misconception that somehow 'agape' represents divine/pure love. Divine love certainly always is 'agape' but not necessarily always vice-versa.

public hermit · Wednesday at 2:13 PM

The distinction between agape and phileo in the NT is not as hard and fast as people seem to assume. Both words are used for God's love for us and our love for God. John 3.19 says people agape darkness. The terms are interchangable, and context is important. Perhaps it also helps to keep in mind the same distinctions in Greek words for love don't exist in Aramaic (for those contexts where the Greek words are being used in conversation, e.g., Jesus and Peter).

Carl Emerson · Wednesday at 3:12 PM

public hermit said:
The distinction between agape and phileo in the NT is not as hard and fast as people seem to assume. Both words are used for God's love for us and our love for God. John 3.19 says people agape darkness. The terms are interchangable, and context is important. Perhaps it also helps to keep in mind the same distinctions in Greek words for love don't exist in Aramaic (for those contexts where the Greek words are being used in conversation, e.g., Jesus and Peter).

Interesting... when I studied Greek under Prof. Blaikloch who was the Prof of Classics, he said that the reason why the gospel spread so fast in the known world was that Greek as the trade language and was universal. It also had developed concepts like the four loves in order to be a suitable linguistic vehicle to carry the intended meanings into the future church. In this sense Aramaic was not the language of choice.

However in John 3:19, Agape would seem to convey a 'deep' love rather than that exclusively from God.

Strange that we don't simply read lust in this verse.?

public hermit · Wednesday at 4:39 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Interesting... when I studied Greek under Prof. Blaikloch who was the Prof of Classics, he said that the reason why the gospel spread so fast in the known world was that Greek as the trade language and was universal.

Was Greek what Galileans spoke in familiar environments?

Carl Emerson said:
Strange that we don't simply read lust in this verse.?

Why would we? As I mentioned, context is key and sometimes more so than the individual words. I would say it means they love it in the sense of it seems (very) good them. "Lust" is not a great word given its sexual connotations, imo.

Carl Emerson · Wednesday at 5:08 PM

Used in non-sexual context here...

Deut 14...

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

and here...

2 Tim 4

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

public hermit · Wednesday at 5:16 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Deut 14...

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

I see what you mean. Yeah, but that is an antiquated use of "lust." It was used to simply mean strong desire, but in this day it has inevitable sexual connotations, which is too specific for John 3:19. That verse needs a general sense of "strong desire for what seems good but is not", i.e., love of darkness. I think "love" works just fine and is the best translation choice, but I see your point.

Carl Emerson · Wednesday at 5:22 PM

public hermit said:
I see what you mean. Yeah, but that is an antiquated use of "lust." It was used to simply mean strong desire, but in this day it has inevitable sexual connotations, which is too specific for John 3:19. That verse needs a general sense of "strong desire for what seems good but is not", i.e., love of darkness. I think "love" works just fine and is the best translation choice, but I see your point.

2 Tim 4 as well...

I edited as you replied...

Reluctant Theologian · Wednesday at 5:34 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Used in non-sexual context here...

Deut 14...

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

and here...

2 Tim 4

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The English word 'lust' has become problematic in most translation instances as it obfuscates the underlying sometimes neutral word used and by definition nowadays carries a negative sexual undertone.

Deuteronomy 14:26 has H183 (translated 'lust' in KJV) but that word would be better translated with 'yearn' as this particular word is used in a neutral way in other places (e.g. 2 Samuel 23:15).

public hermit · Wednesday at 5:38 PM

Carl Emerson said:
I edited as you replied...

Thanks. I did the same replying to you. I know what you mean, and that translation works so long as folks assume the general sense of "lust."

Carl Emerson · Wednesday at 5:47 PM

Any comment on the thrust of the OP - sadly it seems the personal cost of implementing this in our materialistic age is rather a little too high, yet should be central to our evangelism...

Similarly compliance with this in Luke 14

12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.

13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:

Interesting that when Rick Thomas decided to comply with this back in the 60's and shared food with the dump people in Mexoco - revival broke out remarkably.

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The Love of God

Carl Emerson

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Reluctant Theologian

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public hermit

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Carl Emerson

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public hermit

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Carl Emerson

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public hermit

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Carl Emerson

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Reluctant Theologian

אַבְרָהָם

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public hermit

social troglodyte

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Carl Emerson

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