Being embarrassed about Jesus?

JohnClay said:

So those other things have overwhelming evidence but the most important part has no obvious evidence? BTW in all other instances kings have a power over the world. It seems your saying that in this instance there is nothing happening that non-believers could detect. I mean actions besides war, famine, and pestilence - unless Jesus the king is responsible for that.

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You did not understand correctly.
The evidence is there - overwhelmingly so. Like a fingerprint.
I'm saying to you that Jesus' followers are looking for it, as opposed to skeptics, and it is them Jesus gave it to.

Are you trying to find out who killed O.J. Simpson's wife? Neither I.
So I won't be looking for any evidence. Detectives will.
If I did take an interest though, I could examine that evidence, and determine what it says, but I need to get that information from the detectives, wouldn't I.
I could then go about the investigation, and accumulate more evidence if there is any.

I'm saying you aren't in such a position, but Jesus followers are.
I'm saying that there is no video tape for those looking for such, but any additional evidence will indeed be found by those detectives.
Jesus followers have that evidence.
They don't need a video tape, and neither does anyone else.

JohnClay said:

I thought that was about the Holy Spirit... not about Jesus ruling as king.

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Not everyone reading the Bible will understand it.
They need help, and Jesus explained how truths he reveals will be made clear. Holy spirit is a gift.
Think of detectives having special equipment.

JohnClay said:

I don't see a need to involve the supernatural to explain the conversion of people - people get converted to all types of religions and cults and this can be explained with secular psychology.

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JohnClay said:

I think a lot of people see his miracles as evidence that he is God. There was also the miracle of Jesus making the fig tree wither. I'm not sure all of his miracles are because of compassion.

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Good point.
He did proved to his disciples by his signs that he was the son of God, as well as the crowds. That's true.

JohnClay said:

Yes that's what I mean.

It would be different if I was an eye witness to a miracle - like many people in the gospel stories. And like I said I believe the upside-down Bible and Connect 4 events were miracles.

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Are you sure these can be considered miracles?
Putting a cover on wrong is a mistake, isn't it?

JohnClay said:

It says "see" i.e. be an eye witness - not hear about them third or fourth hand, etc. Well I guess that is ambiguous.

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I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

JohnClay said:

No that's all for now.

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Great. Thanks.

JohnClay said:

So you're saying Jesus has been ruling as king since about 1914. How have the lives of Jesus' followers changed since 1914? I don't just mean changes due to war, famine, pestilence and lawlessness. I mean due to something else - Jesus ruling as king. Or maybe there has been no change and saying that Jesus has been ruling as king doesn't really involve any changes at all.

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There have been, I would say, added, or increased benefits.
One of those benefits is the urgency of the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom has intensified, leading to a more focused approach.
There is also increased excitement, and expectation at the nearness of the end. Luke 21:28
Both of these result in more joy, and stronger faith.

It can be described by the illustration given by Jesus, at Matthew 25:13-30.
Not the experience of the slave that buried his talent, although this would happen in a few cases.

With that, there will be more work being done, and more disciples joining in the harvest. Matthew 9:37, 38
Since Jesus is the one directing the work he started on earth, this is expected, since God prophesied such increase. Isaiah 60:22

I'm curious as to why you asked.

JohnClay said:

Perhaps covers of Bibles are put on upside-down in 1 in 1000 Bibles. But I got a sealed one about a day or two after I read a Bible upside down. And that was within weeks of that Connect 4 set event. Like I said skeptics would just explain that it was coincidence, etc, so that my belief in a non-obvious intelligent force is strengthened. Other parts of the Bible are significant - it was an NIV 2013 version which is the same one that my church had. It had red letters for Jesus words but John 7:53—8:11 was in black instead of red.

Bible Gateway passage: John 7 - New International Version

Jesus Goes to the Festival of Tabernacles - After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him. But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go...

www.biblegateway.com

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Why do you believe that because coincidences do occur, every other occurrence must be a coincidence?

JohnClay said:

In the text itself, not just in the footnotes, it says:
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]
If it wasn't for that Bible I might not have realised that the story of the stoning of the adulteress didn't seem to be part of Jesus' history.

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Yes, that text is not considered by some to be part of the Canon, because it is believed to be a later addition.

JohnClay said:

That Bible also is against a key Trinity verse:

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 5 - New International Version

Faith in the Incarnate Son of God - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep...

www.biblegateway.com

The footnote says:
1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)
People like Jack Chick say that that trinity verse was part of the original Bible/text.

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The text in 1 John 5:8 is also considered a later addition, and spurious.

JohnClay said:

Jesus apparently performed miracles. People "saw" them and believed. I haven't "seen" the miracles that Jesus performed.

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If you saw one of Jesus' miracles performed, would you believe?

JohnClay said:

How is that proof that Jesus is "ruling as king"? You basically said that there is nothing about this that could convince skeptics - that only some believers are aware of it. Maybe you could argue that it is involving Jesus somehow, but I don't see why it involves him "ruling as king".

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I did not say that was proof John,
I answered your question. I said the evidence that Christ had begun ruling added to increased joy and bolstered faith.

I gave you proof already. In fact I showed you a miracle, and you tried finding ways to deny it.
If someone told you what would happen in the future, and it happens exactly as that one told you, how can you deny that the person gave you proof of prophetic ability?

Skeptics claim that the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was written after the fact, because they wanted an excuse to deny it, but it's not possible to claim that what was written before in regard to what we see taking place today was written after the fact.

It's expected that skeptics will try their best to deny any evidence for the accuracy of Bible prophecy.
It would take a miracle to alter their MO, and I do not work miracles. Jesus does.

JohnClay said:

I think it is somewhat compatible with the Bible for the "miracles" to be magic tricks so I'd have to be satisfied that they weren't. If he could walk through walls and allow me to put my hands in his wounds then it could imply he was capable of rising from the dead. If there were many other witnesses that would seem to rule out a hallucination. Since I believe I'm probably in a simulation it would technically be possible for any kind of miracle to happen but currently I don't believe that obvious miracles that can't be explained by skeptics are possible.

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JohnClay said:
I'm sure skeptics would have a reason to believe it wasn't a supernatural thing.

This pretty much sums up what I said, John.
If someone has closed their mind to anything that goes against what they want to believe, any answer against the evidence will be acceptable, whether it be magic tricks, coincidences, fraud, or we are not in reality, but a simulation.
That, despite the skeptic has no evidence of any of these. Yet, is asking for evidence.

Suppose, I have no evidence that I can read your mind, but I am asking for evidence that you know what I would say next.
Suppose you wrote down on a piece of paper what I am going to say, and I said it, and you showed me the piece of paper with the exact words I said, who would you say have provided evidence?