The importance of the apsotle Paul to the early church

stevevw said:

At present I am in a thread about the early church and happen to be researching on how the early church transitioned from the Jewish Temple and synagouges to the Christ church we know in some part today.

I dwned on me how vital Paul was in this transition to the Gentiles and how this related to the new covenant of Christ for the church and how this was a fullfillement of the old covenant.

In some ways Paul was the practical instrument that Christ used to teach this transition to the Jews and also to teach to the Gentiles how this was the fullfillment of the Jews. A sticky situation right in the middle of both sides.

Up until Pentecost and even until Paul this was a Jewish religion being fullfilled. There was no thought of Gentiles and it was strict Judaism. But after Paul we have a situation where the church is being open to the Gentiles but still heavily influennced and directed by Jewish tradition.

Paul is in both camps and teaching that circumcision and other rituals are not necessary while at the same time adhering when necessary. So the Jewish factor was still there. In fact from what I have discovered the Jewish factor was there for a very long time and in many ways Christian worship is premised on Jewish worship but modified.

Such as the prophesies of the old testament that the Gentiles would become a pure sacrifice replacing the animal sacrifice. The breaking of bread becoming a participation in Christs sacrifice in bring ourselves to the alter as a sacrifice to God imitating Christ. Paul in this sense seen himself fullfilling the old testament priesthood.

Because of the grace given me by God, [I am] a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service , literally serving as a priest, of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:16).

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stevevw said:

So in some ways though Peter was the Rock on which Christ build His church I think Paul was the Rock on which the fullfillment of GOds covenent to Abraham in while all nations (Gentiles) would become part of Christ church.

I think this is captured in that Peter and Paul were both executed in Rome by the decree of Emperor Nero. Two great men parting the church leaving it to the world. But their influence was enough to establish Christ church as He instructed that would never be defeated by Hades.

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stevevw said:

Sorry I forgot to put the link. It was quote from an article that was using Romans 15:16. Here is the section it came from to give context.

Paul applied this analogy explicitly even within Scripture:
Because of the grace given me by God, [I am] a minister (λειτουργός, [leitourgos]) of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service (ἱερουργοῦντα [hierourgounta], literally serving as a priest, i.e. sacerdos) of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:16).

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stevevw said:

Thus, in explicit language, Paul relates his ministry as an Apostle of Christ to the ministry of a priest (sacerdos), one who aids the Gentiles in making an offering of themselves to the Lord.
Ministers of the New Covenant: Why Christian Ministers Are Priests

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stevevw said:

They have used the word priestly because that is the Greek word Paul uses ie [I am] a minister (λειτουργός, [leitourgos]) of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. Which means minister or public servant. This was referenced to the use of the same word that was attribed to the priestly ministry in the old testament.

Then Paul goes on to say 'in the priestly service (ἱερουργοῦντα [hierourgounta], which means literally serving as a priest, i.e. (sacerdos)

Dictionary: ἱερουργέω
Greek transliteration: hierourgeō
Definition:
to officiate as priest, perform sacred rites

ἱερουργέω

to officiate as priest, perform sacred rites;, in NT to minister in a divine commission, Rom. 15:16*

www.billmounce.com

So Paul is literally comparing himself to an old testament priest in the ministry of Christ. Except instead of the sacrificing of animals he is bring the Gentiles as a pure sacrifice to the alter in Christ.

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stevevw said:

Yes I am learning about how his mninisty was so powerful to the early church in bring the gospel to the world. Despite his broken and battered body and the trials and tribulations he experienced he was stayed true to the end.

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stevevw said:

Ok fair enough. But why.

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stevevw said:

I think so though its a big ask and if you are committed and want to take on such a life then why not. Every human is capable of putting their life on the line for Christ.

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stevevw said:

I think you are right in that we need more Pauls today and I think that time is coming. Especially in the west. In nations that have always been persecuting Christians to death this is where you see Christ shinning the brightest. But in the west we have becme complacent and compromised.

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stevevw said:

I think as a result this brings a awakening so to speak to combat this. I think we are beginning to see this now. I think a true church of Christ like Paul should not be afraid to declare the gospel. What we are beginning to see is the beginning of persecution against Chrisstians in the west which will only get worse.

Just like in the time of pagan Rome which Paul called Babylon the modern day Babylon will persecute Christians. Thats when I think we will see these great preachers and prophets like Paul and the early church rise up again.

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stevevw said:

So you don't think there were specially appointed bishops and presbyters over the church as ministers. I think there are two priesthoods. There is the Royal priesthood that Peter mentions which is that we are all made spiritual priests in Christ.

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stevevw said:

But there is also the specially ordained priesthood ministry which overseers the church. Just like the old testament priesthood covenant was instituted by God through Moses and Aaron.

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stevevw said:

The new covenant priesthood was instituted by Christ in which Paul refers as to being a minister of the priesthood in bringing the Gentiles as a pure sacrifice in Christ. He is ministering over the Gentiles as a fullfillment of the old priesthood.

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stevevw said:

Yes but we also see that there are different levels of responsibility. Paul mentions elders who are worth double honor. Or being unmarried and giving all to Christ was better than marrying. We expect priests to live to a higher standard as they are to be above repraoch. Paul would not qualify this unless there were good Christian men who were not quite above reproach.

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stevevw said:

So I think there is a Christian calling but an ordaining in Christ as a priest has higher calling as they are actually standing in the place of God to the church. That is why I think the modern day pastor with Ted Talks and entertainment and all is misrepresenting priests and deminishes its expectations.

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stevevw said:

Yes of course. I am just sayiing Pauls example of walking like Jesus was something to look to. I think this is the point. When a leader of the church walks like Jesus as close as can be this is what stands out rather than the negative examples we get today. If bishops were more like Paul today it would be a different church I think.

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stevevw said:

My bad, I always get Peter and Paul mixed up. They were both in Rome around the same time and because Peter was with Mark who was usually with Paul I mix them up. It was Peter who mentions this sorry.
1 Peter 5:13: "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son Mark."
Peter was in Rome heading the church and Mark happened to be with him. Not his literal son though.

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stevevw said:

But still the point is the same that at the time of this letter the Christian church was being persecuted by Rome and Nero who was referred to as Babylon drawing parallels between Rome's power, influence, and perceived moral corruption with that of the ancient Babylonian empire.

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stevevw said:

Did not the disciples appoint bishops to continue their ministry. Like Timothy, Titus and Clement. Christ gave the disciples the power and authority to ordain bishops to continue building and protecting Christs church.

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stevevw said:

What does this mean. Are you saying the New Testament is misstaken in its teachings.

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stevevw said:

I am merely destinguishing the two as its a common misrepresentation to say that the priesthood ministry within Christs church is the Royal priesthood. They are two seperate things and both are vital to the church. That is why much of Pauls letters are about order and keeping the church true to the teachings.

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stevevw said:

Christ is the High Priest and it is His representatives that speak His words and remind the church of them. That is what overseering of the church is. Ensuring the church stays true to Christs teachings.

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stevevw said:

What do you mean by "Our versions of "priest" is different".

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stevevw said:

Why does how we presently define priests matter. Or matter more than how Paul or the early church defined priests.

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stevevw said:

You would hope so. I am sure there are many Christlike examples behind the scenes. That is ine thing Clement mentions. That the more quiet and meek a bishop is the more they are Christlike. It was their disposition rather than their words and what whats they did say were powerful and respected because people could see Christ in the Bishops.

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stevevw said:

There was a very high execution rate of the early church bishops and leaders. They were not afraid to stand on Christs truth even if that meant death. We do need more Pauls leading the church to take us through the increasing of wolves knocking on the door. In fact already in the church.

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stevevw said:

I don't think Peter would call Jeruslam the Holy city of the Jews as Babylon the heathen city. Babylon at that time meant 'those opposed to Gods people'. This city was Rome as Rome was the capital of the Roman Empire and was the persecutor of Gods people under Nero.

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stevevw said:

1 Peter 5:13 is often interpreted as a reference to Rome, using "Babylon" as a code name. This verse, along with other historical and traditional accounts, suggests Peter's presence in Rome.

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stevevw said:

I am not sure what you mean.

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stevevw said:

Does 'minding the flock' include protecting from the wolves who teach a false doctrine. I thought the greatest threat to the church isn't the sinners out in the world but the wolves that come up within the church itself.

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stevevw said:

Or pretend to be the church as opposed to Christ church. So they are not obviously pointed out through evil acts. But mimick the true church so that even the elect will be fooled.

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stevevw said:

The teachings don't say the church must become political and take control back or impose the teachings or Gods Will onto the world.

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stevevw said:

Pauls teachings and commands are about protecting the church from the outsde world coming in. Which makes sense because if the church was surrounded by a pagan culture and Jewish radicalism then they could in no way become winners in the world and will always be fighting.

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stevevw said:

But they can certainly stop this from coming into the church. That is why they had to hide and keep the church seperate and protected. That was Pauls biggest worry that the church would allow the wolves in after he went.

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stevevw said:

So was Paul and Clement when it was needed. But Christ also was quiet and meek when he was accused of heresay while actually being the truth. This is why Peter says to be subject to masters and rulers even if they are unjust to you. That by your obedient and pure example that this itself without words will expose the injustice and turn people towards God through Christs example in them.

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stevevw said:

But when they do speak it should be well respected. But its the Christlike quiet and meek disposition that is a sign that the bishop is within Christ that they will be above reproach and their words will be aligned with Christs I think.

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stevevw said:

Yes thats the idea and we see Paul sometimes say I am glad and happy that the church is doing well and following his teachings and example. But he becomes a different leader when they disobey his teachings lol.

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stevevw said:

Yes but spiritually it was still known as the place of Christs borth and crucifixtion and resurrection and where the Holy Temple was which stood regardless for Gods people and Christs redemption and the place He will return.
As opposed to Rome which was the capital of the pagans and had the opposing Temples in Rome like the Pantheon. But it doesn't matter anyway.

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stevevw said:

So you don't believe Peter was ever in Rome.

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stevevw said:

Yes and especially pride or envy I think.

Yes which makes it harder to tell the truth from the counterfeit. That is why Christ said that the wolves would come in sheeps clothing.



Yes and I think it is by being Christs church, achieving that disposition as a whole is what shines Christ through the church to the world. Like a lighthouse on a cliff in a stormy see at night.

Though of course we go out into the world to preach the gospel we as a church are suppose to represent the group of Christians that can live together showing a better way. That is ultimately as a church being like Christ. So that when people look to His church they see Christ and not the denomination.

That can only happen with unity under the same church and teachings which go into making the church look like Christ to the world. People already know God and so this Christlike example will being them seeking God when seen from the pagan world.

In fact as you say the pagan world is once again surrounding the church. So I think another sign of Christs church just like in the early church will be Christs church, His leaders and evn members being persecuted even untill death. Because while Christs church will be like a lighthouse to those who will believe when they see it. It will be a trigger to those who defy God.

The more Christs church looks like Christ the more it will stand out to those lost and those who hate God. At present in the west I don't think we see this. But we are beginning to as the west moves away from Christ. Then Christians will be more destinguished and called to stand in the face of persecution and great leaders will arise.

Nero was the emporer and a tyrant against Christians. He executed many Christians including Peter and Paul. He had mass killings at the Colosseum feeding the Christians to the beasts.

But generally there was hatred for the Christians who were percieved as trouble makers with some new religious sect. Especially from the other Jewish sects like the Pharisees who were the real ones behind getting leaders like Paul arrested by the Romans.

There are several archeological finds of hiudden churches. The true story of the fish sign which was a secret symbol denoting Christian to let other Christians know meeting places. Often in back lanes in a house. Otherwise in synagous where the Pharisees would hassle them.

I am not sure what you mean.

Thats the point. That people imagine the bad fruit to be like a criminal and obvious. That wasnot what Christ and the disciples meant by the wolves. They meant that they would come from the very leaders that were already in the church. They were creating different doctrines within the church.

So thats why Paul was always reminding them of the teachings and instructions he gave them and rebuking them when they stopped. It had to be constantly reminded because Christ and especially Paul knew it would be a constant possibility because of human fallen nature within such a large body or believers.

I think for Paul he had a vision in his mind of the church and he was everyday trying to achieve this. He knew that it was only by the teachings Christ had given the diciples that had to be installed over and over again so that it stuck and lasted. That was his mission.

I would think as Peter was the Rock and head of Christs church and that Rome was regarded as the capital of thChristian church mainly because it was the largest city that would have had the largest church with many gentiles coming in.

Also we know that Paul was executed in Rome by Nero. We know Peter was executed also by Nero. Nero also executed Ignatius and in each occassion Nero demanded that the leaders come to Rome and worship at the pagan Temple to renounce their belief.

Both Paul and Ignatius were escorted by guards to Rome and both wrote letters along the way to the churches. It was likely if Peter was in Jerusalem that he was not executed in Jerusalem as we don;t have any evidence for this. Peter would have travelled being the head of the church.

But the verse I linked is recognised as Peter speaking from Rome with Mark when he refers to Rome as Babylon. Not that it matters as e know Peter was still the Rock and would have had wide influence over the church. Along with Paul. Thats why I say Peter may have been the Rock of Christs church overall but Paul was the Rock on which the Gentiles came into the church.

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