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Once the mortal body is dead you can't be reconciled?

Jeff Saunders

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1 Pet 4:6 " Because it was for this that the good tidings were proclaimed to the dead, that though judged in flesh according to human beings they might live in spirit according to God"
This passage is talking about non believers who had died, but the good tidings, or gospel was proclaimed to them so that they might live in spirit according to God.
Why would God allow the preaching to the dead if they could not respond? Does God just tease them knowing that their fate is sealed?
Can the death of the mortal body not be the end of the story for those who never saw Jesus for who he really is?
 

Maria Billingsley

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1 Pet 4:6 " Because it was for this that the good tidings were proclaimed to the dead, that though judged in flesh according to human beings they might live in spirit according to God"
This passage is talking about non believers who had died, but the good tidings, or gospel was proclaimed to them so that they might live in spirit according to God.
Why would God allow the preaching to the dead if they could not respond? Does God just tease them knowing that their fate is sealed?
Can the death of the mortal body not be the end of the story for those who never saw Jesus for who he really is?
I believe this refers to spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1-5
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have beensaved".
 
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bling

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In the Context of 1 Peter 4:6 we have Peter addressing persecution 1 Peter 4: 1… because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

In other places talking about the persecution (I Thessalonians 4:13; Revelation 14:13.) you have martyrs persecuted to physical death, which seems to be in the context here.

Peter is encouraging those being persecuted that like those that heard the gospel and went to their death, they to might die for the cause.

It is not the gospel being preached to those after they died, but preaching to those while living, who are now dead.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I believe this refers to spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1-5
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have beensaved".
Look up one verse, vs 5" They who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and dead" is he not comparing the living and the dead, then he talks about those who were dead that had the gospel proclaimed, it says nothing about spiritually dead but seems to be talking about physical death, or at least that's the way I read it.
I do not see the Eph verse as speaking about the same thing, it specifically says dead in trespasses, but made alive in Christ. They are talking about two different things.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Look up one verse, vs 5" They who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and dead" is he not comparing the living and the dead, then he talks about those who were dead that had the gospel proclaimed, it says nothing about spiritually dead but seems to be talking about physical death, or at least that's the way I read it.
I do not see the Eph verse as speaking about the same thing, it specifically says dead in trespasses, but made alive in Christ. They are talking about two different things.
Dead can be used literal, metaphorical or spiritual. What I do know is , Peter is not speaking about those who are literally dead and who have already sealed their judgment.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I believe this refers to spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1-5
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have beensaved".

There are several opinions on the passage from St. Peter's epistle. I'm not familiar with "spiritual death" as one of them. More common opinions are:

1) This is a reference to Christ's descent into Hades, and what Christ preached was His victory over the powers of sin, death, hell, and the devil--this is a victory proclamation and is a crucial aspect of the historic Christian doctrine of Christ's descent into the place of the dead, which is what is referred to whenever the Apostles' Creed is recited, "He descended into hell"--His descent into hell is not "going to hell" but entering into the depths of death, to the place of the dead, and the spirits here are the imprisoned fallen powers Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3, which provides the necessary context for what is being said in 1 Peter 4.

This preaching of the Gospel, then, is not an evangelization; but is the victory proclamation of God's conquest of death and the devil. Thus the spirits in prison are not unbelievers, but the dark powers, fallen angels, devils, demons, whatever else we might want to call them. Because the Gospel for human beings is Good News of our rescue; but this same Gospel is, for the devils, the declaration of their bitter defeat and downfall--they've lost, God has won.

2) If the spirits in prison are, instead, viewed as the souls of the dead--the dead who were wiped out during the flood--then this does beg questions: Is the preaching to the spirits in prison, those who formerly disobeyed, in hearing the Gospel perhaps able to upon hearing the Gospel be lifted up and out of the prison? And how does this jive with where in Hebrews we read "It is appointed for man to live once, and then the judgment", which suggests that at the time of our mortal death we experience a judgment, what is traditionally known as "Personal Judgment" which is a foretaste of the future and Final Judgment. I don't have an answer to my own question, but that is certainly an important question we need to ask if we take a view such as this about what St. Peter is writing.

3) I'm going to offer a third option here, which I'm not sure how pervasive it is, or how defensible it is; but in the back of my mind I'm sure I've heard some offer this view: The spirits in prison, and thus the preaching of the Gospel to them, refers to those who died before the time of Christ and that, in this way, the descent into hell and proclaiming the Gospel involves a rescue of the Old Testament saints. Essentially the ancient patriarchs are being brought out of the place of death and ultimately are brought into the fullness of God's presence through Christ's victory over hades/hell. If this view were put forward, I think it has some problems, for one the spirits are said to have been disobedient. Now I could see a counter to this by presenting the list of pre-Diluvian patriarchs contains both righteous and unrighteous--there is probably some case for that to be made and so given the uniqueness of the pre-Diluvian period this is some kind of restoration of all the patriachs. I'm just spitballing at this point. Ultimately, I just don't think this third option would really hold water.

I think the view that probably makes the most sense is the first one I mentioned. The spirits in prison aren't humans, but fallen powers. This language of the devils as imprisoned has precedence within the language of the 2nd Temple Period. It's a big theme in the Enochian literature (I'm not giving the Enoch texts legitimacy, only that they provide evidence of this sort of language in the time period which would have been well known to Peter and all the early Christians). There is also the large amounts of ambiguity when we talk about devils/demons/fallen angels. Our modern perspective is pretty clean-cut, when we talk about devils/demons we understand them to be Satan and all his fallen angel followers who rebelled and in falling, now are down here on earth causing all kinds of problems. And while I think that's all true, I think it might also be minimalistic.

Biblical language is often a bit more complicated, for example why are the demons called dark forces in "heavenly places", or why is the devil specifically called "the prince of the power of the air"? There are, I think answers to these questions--the idea that the demons literally inhabit the air, or sky, is actually a pretty normal idea in the context of 2nd Temple Judaism during the Hellenistic era. During the 2nd Temple Period when the Jewish people were inundated with Greek culture, one of the ways Jewish thinkers responded was by viewing Greek Pagan ideas as diabolical; even borrowing a Greek word, daemon, to refer specifically to evil spirits and fallen angels. In Greek Paganism a daemon is a generic term for any supernatural being, from the Olympian gods to various nature spirits like nymphs and naiads, even a human soul could be conceived of as a daemon. But this word was appropriated in a Jewish context to mean evil spirits, to refer to ha-Shaytan, fallen angels, etc.

And this language of "power of the air" makes sense in this Judeo-Greek context, because daemons often referred to intermediate supernatural beings between the gods above and man below--in a paradigm that views spirits such as these are nefarious, as the same sort of thing as Satan is, or the various "impure spirits" or "evil spirits" we read about in the Old Testament--then this is simply a way of talking about dark/demonic spiritual forces. They are "of the air" and "in heavenly places". And, in other ways, the demons and devils are also viewed as cthonic, that is, of the underworld; probably because of death. The fires of Gehenna are said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, though this seems to speak of future Judgment, and looks similar to what we read in the Revelation about being cast into the lake of fire. Yet 2 Peter directly speaks of those demons who sinned and now are imprisoned in Tartarus (where Tartarus here is clearly a borrowing of a Greek idea, but it's a Greek idea mediated through 2nd Temple Judaism, as we find this language also in the Enochian literature) So where are the devils? Are they in the air? Are they here on the earth? Are they in in the prison-place of the dead? Perhaps all three at the same time, if we try not to try to imagine fixed physical location.

Anyway, my opinion is probably that 1 Peter is talking about Jesus proclaiming His victory over the dark powers and principalities, e.g. the devil and his fallen fellows.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Maria Billingsley

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There are several opinions on the passage from St. Peter's epistle. I'm not familiar with "spiritual death" as one of them. More common opinions are:

1) This is a reference to Christ's descent into Hades, and what Christ preached was His victory over the powers of sin, death, hell, and the devil--this is a victory proclamation and is a crucial aspect of the historic Christian doctrine of Christ's descent into the place of the dead, which is what is referred to whenever the Apostles' Creed is recited, "He descended into hell"--His descent into hell is not "going to hell" but entering into the depths of death, to the place of the dead, and the spirits here are the imprisoned fallen powers Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3, which provides the necessary context for what is being said in 1 Peter 4.

This preaching of the Gospel, then, is not an evangelization; but is the victory proclamation of God's conquest of death and the devil. Thus the spirits in prison are not unbelievers, but the dark powers, fallen angels, devils, demons, whatever else we might want to call them. Because the Gospel for human beings is Good News of our rescue; but this same Gospel is, for the devils, the declaration of their bitter defeat and downfall--they've lost, God has won.

2) If the spirits in prison are, instead, viewed as the souls of the dead--the dead who were wiped out during the flood--then this does beg questions: Is the preaching to the spirits in prison, those who formerly disobeyed, in hearing the Gospel perhaps able to upon hearing the Gospel be lifted up and out of the prison? And how does this jive with where in Hebrews we read "It is appointed for man to live once, and then the judgment", which suggests that at the time of our mortal death we experience a judgment, what is traditionally known as "Personal Judgment" which is a foretaste of the future and Final Judgment. I don't have an answer to my own question, but that is certainly an important question we need to ask if we take a view such as this about what St. Peter is writing.

3) I'm going to offer a third option here, which I'm not sure how pervasive it is, or how defensible it is; but in the back of my mind I'm sure I've heard some offer this view: The spirits in prison, and thus the preaching of the Gospel to them, refers to those who died before the time of Christ and that, in this way, the descent into hell and proclaiming the Gospel involves a rescue of the Old Testament saints. Essentially the ancient patriarchs are being brought out of the place of death and ultimately are brought into the fullness of God's presence through Christ's victory over hades/hell. If this view were put forward, I think it has some problems, for one the spirits are said to have been disobedient. Now I could see a counter to this by presenting the list of pre-Diluvian patriarchs contains both righteous and unrighteous--there is probably some case for that to be made and so given the uniqueness of the pre-Diluvian period this is some kind of restoration of all the patriachs. I'm just spitballing at this point. Ultimately, I just don't think this third option would really hold water.

I think the view that probably makes the most sense is the first one I mentioned. The spirits in prison aren't humans, but fallen powers. This language of the devils as imprisoned has precedence within the language of the 2nd Temple Period. It's a big theme in the Enochian literature (I'm not giving the Enoch texts legitimacy, only that they provide evidence of this sort of language in the time period which would have been well known to Peter and all the early Christians). There is also the large amounts of ambiguity when we talk about devils/demons/fallen angels. Our modern perspective is pretty clean-cut, when we talk about devils/demons we understand them to be Satan and all his fallen angel followers who rebelled and in falling, now are down here on earth causing all kinds of problems. And while I think that's all true, I think it might also be minimalistic.

Biblical language is often a bit more complicated, for example why are the demons called dark forces in "heavenly places", or why is the devil specifically called "the prince of the power of the air"? There are, I think answers to these questions--the idea that the demons literally inhabit the air, or sky, is actually a pretty normal idea in the context of 2nd Temple Judaism during the Hellenistic era. During the 2nd Temple Period when the Jewish people were inundated with Greek culture, one of the ways Jewish thinkers responded was by viewing Greek Pagan ideas as diabolical; even borrowing a Greek word, daemon, to refer specifically to evil spirits and fallen angels. In Greek Paganism a daemon is a generic term for any supernatural being, from the Olympian gods to various nature spirits like nymphs and naiads, even a human soul could be conceived of as a daemon. But this word was appropriated in a Jewish context to mean evil spirits, to refer to ha-Shaytan, fallen angels, etc.

And this language of "power of the air" makes sense in this Judeo-Greek context, because daemons often referred to intermediate supernatural beings between the gods above and man below--in a paradigm that views spirits such as these are nefarious, as the same sort of thing as Satan is, or the various "impure spirits" or "evil spirits" we read about in the Old Testament--then this is simply a way of talking about dark/demonic spiritual forces. They are "of the air" and "in heavenly places". And, in other ways, the demons and devils are also viewed as cthonic, that is, of the underworld; probably because of death. The fires of Gehenna are said to be prepared for the devil and his angels, though this seems to speak of future Judgment, and looks similar to what we read in the Revelation about being cast into the lake of fire. Yet 2 Peter directly speaks of those demons who sinned and now are imprisoned in Tartarus (where Tartarus here is clearly a borrowing of a Greek idea, but it's a Greek idea mediated through 2nd Temple Judaism, as we find this language also in the Enochian literature) So where are the devils? Are they in the air? Are they here on the earth? Are they in in the prison-place of the dead? Perhaps all three at the same time, if we try not to try to imagine fixed physical location.

Anyway, my opinion is probably that 1 Peter is talking about Jesus proclaiming His victory over the dark powers and principalities, e.g. the devil and his fallen fellows.

-CryptoLutheran
I understand. I will take the simple more logical explanation that without the indwelling of His Holy Spirit one remains dead in sin therefore " spiritually dead".
Thanks for sharing!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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1 Pet 4:6 " Because it was for this that the good tidings were proclaimed to the dead, that though judged in flesh according to human beings they might live in spirit according to God"
This passage is talking about non believers who had died, but the good tidings, or gospel was proclaimed to them so that they might live in spirit according to God.
Why would God allow the preaching to the dead if they could not respond? Does God just tease them knowing that their fate is sealed?
Can the death of the mortal body not be the end of the story for those who never saw Jesus for who he really is?
That verse is talking about those who are spiritually dead in sin, not physically dead. Have you never read passages like these:

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

After death, people then look forward to judgment (Hebrews 9:27), so it makes no sense to think that the gospel would be preached to physically dead people. Scripture says that today is the day and now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2), not after one physically dies.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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There are several opinions on the passage from St. Peter's epistle. I'm not familiar with "spiritual death" as one of them.
So, you just immediately write that off as a possibility just because you're not familiar with it? That's not wise.

More common opinions are:

1) This is a reference to Christ's descent into Hades, and what Christ preached was His victory over the powers of sin, death, hell, and the devil--this is a victory proclamation and is a crucial aspect of the historic Christian doctrine of Christ's descent into the place of the dead, which is what is referred to whenever the Apostles' Creed is recited, "He descended into hell"--His descent into hell is not "going to hell" but entering into the depths of death, to the place of the dead, and the spirits here are the imprisoned fallen powers Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3, which provides the necessary context for what is being said in 1 Peter 4.
Jesus did not descend into Hades when He died. He went to paradise (Luke 23:43-46).

The Apostles' Creed is not scripture.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So, you just immediately write that off as a possibility just because you're not familiar with it? That's not wise.

Well for one, I didn't just write it off, instead I wanted to provide some more common views.

Though, no, I don't think it holds much water given the material content of 1 and 2 Peter. I don't disagree with it because I'm unfamiliar with it, but because I think the material content of the Petrine texts suggests another explanation. I'm also not writing off what the OP said, though I am disagreeing with it for the same reasons.

Jesus did not descend into Hades when He died. He went to paradise (Luke 23:43-46).

If I say I'm taking a vacation in California, but you tell me "No, you're going to Los Angeles", that'd be a bit weird, right? Paradise and Gehenna are the two "sides" of Hades (Luke 16:19-31)

The Apostles' Creed is not scripture.

Didn't claim it was. But the Apostles' Creed is absolutely and 100% true.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I understand. I will take the simple more logical explanation that without the indwelling of His Holy Spirit one remains dead in sin therefore " spiritually dead".
Thanks for sharing!

I agree with you on that point.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bling

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Dead can be used literal, metaphorical or spiritual. What I do know is , Peter is not speaking about those who are literally dead and who have already sealed their judgment.
I have to agree this one time with Jeff, that we are talking about physical death, but does not mean the gospel was preached to dead people, but to believers in this life who died and were than dead at the writing.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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That verse is talking about those who are spiritually dead in sin, not physically dead. Have you never read passages like these:

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

After death, people then look forward to judgment (Hebrews 9:27), so it makes no sense to think that the gospel would be preached to physically dead people. Scripture says that today is the day and now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2), not after one physically dies.
I as a UR believer always am told I am taking things out of context to support UR.
Well look back to 1Pet 2:18-20 and its talking about Jesus dying and preaching to the dead, by your logic then Jesus did not physically die but was spiritually dead, but I do not think so.
If the chapter before was talking about physical death of Jesus and him preaching to the dead, and a few verses later says " Because it was for this that the good tidings were proclaimed to the dead, why do you think John was not talking about the subject of the physically dead being preached to.
I understand why you want to make it the spiritually dead, but its just not there.
 
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Jerry N.

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I as a UR believer always am told I am taking things out of context to support UR.
Well look back to 1Pet 2:18-20 and its talking about Jesus dying and preaching to the dead, by your logic then Jesus did not physically die but was spiritually dead, but I do not think so.
If the chapter before was talking about physical death of Jesus and him preaching to the dead, and a few verses later says " Because it was for this that the good tidings were proclaimed to the dead, why do you think John was not talking about the subject of the physically dead being preached to.
I understand why you want to make it the spiritually dead, but its just not there.

You might also consider Ephesians 4:9. The problem also includes where Christ descended to. The word “hell” can have a few different meanings. Some contend that Christ went to “sheol,” and it was translated to Greek “hades” then to English “hell.”
 
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