• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Does the "reign in the influence of Israel" movement need a Tucker Carlson to be credible?

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,009
9,027
65
✟428,325.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Russia disagrees, which is all that matters for the purposes of this discussion. Now, do you care to address the actual point?
You should address the point. Russia was concerned about N ATO. Israel was ACTUALLY attacked with brutality aimed at young people, children and citizens. Attacked by Hamas and Palistinians who supported Hamas. In fact Israel has been under attack from Gaza for many many years.

Russia was not. Russia just had concerns.
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
13,105
4,636
Eretz
✟375,655.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Here are some status before the war


Life in GAZA

  1. GDP per capita $5K
  2. Unemployment rate 25%
  3. Infant Morality 12%
  4. Maternal Morality 20%
  5. Below poverty level 60%
  6. Safe drinking Water 80%



This describes life in Gaza before Israel took any action, when the world sent $2 billion annually in aid.

I never heard anyone complain about the life in Gaza under their elected officials, Hamas.

Suddenly, many people are concerned about 70% of civilian infrastructure in Gaza.

Where were they when 60% of Gaza's civilians lived in poverty and only 80% had access to safe drinking water?
The PLO took money and paid terrorists pay for slay programs and also enriched themselves. Hamas took the rest and built terror tunnels and funded themselves. trump stopped funding after the Taylor Force act while afterwards Biden started payments again...which I bet funded 10/7
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FAITH-IN-HIM
Upvote 0

Desk trauma

The pickles are up to something
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
22,250
18,207
✟1,413,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The PLO took money and paid terrorists pay for slay programs and also enriched themselves. Hamas took the rest and built terror tunnels and funded themselves. trump stopped funding after the Taylor Force act while afterwards Biden started payments again...which I bet funded 10/7
Knew this was Biden fault somehow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
27,963
16,897
Here
✟1,452,371.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Are the Sudanese forces being supported by Western governments? People protest things that they think they can change.

I'd be careful using that argument, I suspect some people will pounce on that...

The acknowledgement of "The young libs only come out to protest when Western powers support those forces" is proving half of their point for them.

That's basically an acknowledgment that it's more of an "Anti-West" sentiment driving this than a "sincere concern for Palestinians" sentiment.


Basically "We'll ignore it or take a non-interventionist approach... unless a "colonialist" government supports it, in that case, we'll come out in droves to protest" isn't exactly conveying a great message.


To be fair, this isn't a new pattern...several other international conflicts have followed the "meh...... unless there some sort of narrative it serves, in that case then we have a serious opinion about it" pattern
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
9,076
9,799
PA
✟428,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I'd be careful using that argument, I suspect some people will pounce on that...

The acknowledgement of "The young libs only come out to protest when Western powers support those forces" is proving half of their point for them.

That's basically an acknowledgment that it's more of an "Anti-West" sentiment driving this than a "sincere concern for Palestinians" sentiment.
It only comes across that way if that's the narrative you're trying to push, Rob. When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I guess.

The reality is that there's only so much energy in the world, so people tend protest the things that they think they actually have a chance of changing. In general, that means they protest the actions of their own government or its close allies (i.e. countries that their government has some measure of influence over). I suppose that can look like "anti-West sentiment" to the undiscerning eye, but I thought you were smarter than that.
 
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What a fascinating revisionist history! It's hard to run an economy when you've been illegally displaced from your land, half your grandparents slaughtered by Israeli settlers, and then you're shoved into a confined area that is basically the world's largest open-air jail.
The restrictions on movement and goods in Gaza imposed by Israel date to the early 1990s.[1] After Hamas took over in 2007, Israel significantly intensified existing movement restrictions and imposed a complete blockade on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip.[2] In the same year, Egypt closed the Rafah border crossing.[3] The blockade's stated aims are to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza and exert economic pressure on Hamas.[1] Human rights groups have called the blockade illegal and a form of collective punishment, as it restricts the flow of essential goods, contributes to economic hardship, and limits Gazans' freedom of movement.[2][4] The land, sea, and air blockade isolated Gaza from the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory and the world.[5] The blockade and its effects have led to the territory being called an "open-air prison".[6][7]


Remember that Palestinians - whether Christians, Jews, or Moslems - all lived together relatively peacefully until Zionism conducted mass immigration programs to flood Palestine with Jews. Then when the critical mass was reached, the war and the pogroms stated, and the rest is history. The west turns a blind eye to it because after America broke Iran's democracy and installed the Shah and then that backfired into today's militant theocracy, they needed a new friend in the middle-east.

Basically the world has cared about the Palestinian people during this time.
There have been protests, campaigns, letters, all sorts of reporting on this issue for decades.

Today's protests are because the sheer scale of destruction has accelerated. While there might indeed be other worse human catastrophes looming in South Sudan and other areas of the planet - Israel's apartheid regime apparently has our backing and direct support! So I ask you? Do you support apartheid regimes? Did you condemn South Africa's white apartheid against blacks? Then what about Jewish apartheid against Arabs and Moslems? Why do so many Christian Americans support a racist concept anyway - a "Jewish state"? Why is Zionism so popular when it is inherently a racist concept at its very core? There is now a thing called Israel. I must accept history - and that this state exists. However I do not accept that it has to be a Jewish state. I support separation of church and state for a reason, and that applies to Christians, Jews and Moslems.

I can’t speak for other American , but I will speak for myself.

As a Christian who accepts the Bible as divinely inspired, I believe it teaches that Israel and the Jewish people are chosen by God. From God's promise to Abraham through the Old Testament, God continually protects Israel, even when they turn away from Him.

Throughout Old Testament history, God both protected the Israelites and punished them for disobedience—sometimes through other nations, or directly with plagues or famine. However, He always preserved the nation of Israel.

God's protection of Isreal appears excessively biased by today's standards. Despite Israel’s disobedience and actions against even the faithful, God has continued to protect and bless them, which seems difficult to understand.

The prophet Elijah encountered a similar dilemma in the Book of 1 Kings.

1 King 19:14 “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

And God Replied

1 King 19:18 “ Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

Two thousand years later, Paul references 1 King 19:18 in Romans 11, stating that Israelites are considered God's chosen people. He refers to them as the original branch and describes believers in Christ as branches that were added when the original branch did not obey. Then Paul write to the assurances that the Israelites would be saved and restored.

I understand and agree with many of the points you have raised above. Several actions undertaken by the modern nation of Israel do not align with the moral standards upheld by Christians or even those recognized within the secular community.

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament describe the Jewish people as having a special status or role. Despite their disobedience God will offer protection, deliverance, and restoration to them. While some may perceive this as controversial or inconsistent with human perspectives, it reflects the teachings of the Bible.

I have grappled with this issue throughout my adult life. From a human perspective, Isreal appears to conflict with numerous Christian values as well as prevailing societal norms. This raises a fundamental question: should I rely on my own understanding and judgment, or should I depend on the Word of God? My conclusion is that I must place my trust in the Word of God.
 
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It only comes across that way if that's the narrative you're trying to push, Rob. When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I guess.

The reality is that there's only so much energy in the world, so people tend protest the things that they think they actually have a chance of changing. In general, that means they protest the actions of their own government or its close allies (i.e. countries that their government has some measure of influence over). I suppose that can look like "anti-West sentiment" to the undiscerning eye, but I thought you were smarter than that.
How did that work out for progressive?

Last year, progressives across American college campuses and streets chanted “Genocide Joe.” Did it have an impact?

Yes—it resulted in President Trump instead of President Harris. If that was the intended change, then congratulations on achieving it.
 
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
9,076
9,799
PA
✟428,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
How did that work out for progressive?

Last year, progressives across American college campuses and streets chanted “Genocide Joe.” Did it have an impact?

Yes—it resulted in President Trump instead of President Harris. If that was the intended change, then congratulations on achieving it.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the point. We're talking about why people choose to protest the things that they protest. The actual results are irrelevant.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
9,076
9,799
PA
✟428,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I have grappled with this issue throughout my adult life. From a human perspective, Isreal appears to conflict with numerous Christian values as well as prevailing societal norms. This raises a fundamental question: should I rely on my own understanding and judgment, or should I depend on the Word of God? My conclusion is that I must place my trust in the Word of God.
Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong? That the modern, secular state of Israel is not the "Israel" referred to in the Bible?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

Desk trauma

The pickles are up to something
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
22,250
18,207
✟1,413,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Both the Old Testament and the New Testament describe the Jewish people as having a special status or role.
A tribal deity favors its own tribe? Unusual.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure what this has to do with the point. We're talking about why people choose to protest the things that they protest. The actual results are irrelevant.
If the results remain unchanged, protests have no effect and are therefore pointless.
 
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong? That the modern, secular state of Israel is not the "Israel" referred to in the Bible?
Yes, I have considered this on several occasions. If you believe that the modern state of Israel is not the "Israel" referenced in the Bible, please provide scriptural evidence. I am certainly open to reconsidering my position.
 
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A tribal deity favors its own tribe? Unusual.
I see that you have identified as atheist under the faith category. As a result, I question the credibility of your perspective regarding the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Desk trauma

The pickles are up to something
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
22,250
18,207
✟1,413,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I see that you have identified as atheist under the faith category. As a result, I question the credibility of your perspective regarding the Bible.
Of course you do.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FAITH-IN-HIM
Upvote 0

RocksInMyHead

God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
May 12, 2011
9,076
9,799
PA
✟428,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
If the results remain unchanged, protests have no effect and are therefore pointless.
Not exactly, as a single protest rarely changes anything. But again, we're not talking about whether protesting the war in Gaza is pointless, but rather why people choose to protest the war in Gaza rather than other similar conflicts.
Yes, I have considered this on several occasions. If you believe that the modern state of Israel is not the "Israel" referenced in the Bible, please provide scriptural evidence. I am certainly open to reconsidering my position.
Proving a negative is a logical impossibility.

What I will point out are two things:

1. You appear to be working backwards to justify your conclusion rather than drawing a conclusion from the evidence. You point out the issues and contradictions that you see, then handwave them away with cherry-picked scripture and rationalizations. Ask yourself this question: "If the modern state of Israel was called something else (e.g. Judea), would I still hold these same opinions?" Then consider the fact that the modern state of Israel was established by Man and deliberately named. Dispensationalism and Christian Zionism long predate the existence of Israel (the modern state).

2. Beware of self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. You appear to be working backwards to justify your conclusion rather than drawing a conclusion from the evidence. You point out the issues and contradictions that you see, then handwave them away with cherry-picked scripture and rationalizations. Ask yourself this question: "If the modern state of Israel was called something else (e.g. Judea), would I still hold these same opinions?" Then consider the fact that the modern state of Israel was established by Man and deliberately named. Dispensationalism and Christian Zionism long predate the existence of Israel (the modern state).

2. Beware of self-fulfilling prophecy.
It appears that you are unable to provide scriptural evidence supporting the claim that modern-day Israel differs from what is described in the Bible. Thank you for sharing your perspective; however, I do not find it compelling. As I mentioned, I am willing to reconsider my position if you can present relevant scripture. Based on our discussion thus far, it seems you have not provided any. I will continue to place greater trust in the word of God than in human opinions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rjs330
Upvote 0

FAITH-IN-HIM

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2024
1,872
1,262
WI
✟51,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not exactly, as a single protest rarely changes anything. But again, we're not talking about whether protesting the war in Gaza is pointless, but rather why people choose to protest the war in Gaza rather than other similar conflicts.
Your argument is that protesters demonstrate against the war in Gaza because they believe their actions can have an impact, whereas they might not protest other conflicts if they feel they cannot influence the situation. However, as you noted, the protests in 2024 did not lead to significant outcomes. Therefore, protesting against the conflict in Gaza or other conflicts may be viewed similarly in terms of their effectiveness.

So why protest against the war in Gaza? Very simple answer. Antisemitism.
 
Upvote 0

Desk trauma

The pickles are up to something
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
22,250
18,207
✟1,413,948.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
  • Like
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0